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RE: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
    Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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      Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

      Best regards,

      Carlos F. Pardo

      -----Original Message-----
      From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
      Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
      To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
      #41


      Link is dead

      >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
      >
      >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
      >
      >Simon
      >
      >
      >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
      >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
      >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
      >Carfree Times
      >> #41
      >>
      >> Debra Efroymson said:
      >>
      >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      >>> decades
      >>
      >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
      >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
      >> they're actually serious.
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
      >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



      Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
      Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
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    • Simon Baddeley
      Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
        use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

        http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

        http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

        Best

        Simon


        > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
        > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
        > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
        > #41
        >
        >
        > Link is dead
        >
        >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
        >>
        >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
        >>
        >> Simon
      • J.H. Crawford
        It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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          It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

          >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
          >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
          >
          >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
          >
          >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
          >
          >Best
          >
          >Simon
          >
          >
          >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
          >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
          >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
          >> #41
          >>
          >>
          >> Link is dead
          >>
          >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
          >>>
          >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
          >>>
          >>> Simon
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
          >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          ----- ### -----
          J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
          mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
        • Doug Salzmann
          Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Works for me, too.

            If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
            forward the material (all small PDF files).


            -Doug


            On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

            > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
            > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
            >
            > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
            >
            > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
            >
            > Best
            >
            > Simon

            --
            Doug Salzmann
            P.O. Box 1007
            Larkspur, CA 94977
          • Debra Efroymson
            I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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              I'm moving to Bhutan.
              Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
              nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
              in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
              is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
              standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
              loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
              population becomes more obese and life expectancy
              decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
              the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
              course is assigning monetary value to nature and
              well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
              least, might help show how car-based societies are
              making us poorer.
              Since governments (at least that of the US, but
              hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
              well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
              change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
              shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
              Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
              a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
              class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
              goods as something desirable in economic terms.
              As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
              terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
              attention; if we could "mainstream" the
              environment/nature and people's well-being into
              measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
              keep taking on one issue at a time.
              Debra

              --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

              > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
              > recently.
              >
              >
              http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
              >
              > Simon




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            • J.H. Crawford
              ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                Debra said:

                > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                >making us poorer.
                > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                Regards,



                ----- ### -----
                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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