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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • J.H. Crawford
    Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
      Link is dead

      >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
      >
      >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
      >
      >Simon
      >
      >
      >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
      >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
      >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
      >Carfree Times
      >> #41
      >>
      >> Debra Efroymson said:
      >>
      >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      >>> decades
      >>
      >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
      >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
      >> they're actually serious.
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
      >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
      Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
        Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

        Best regards,

        Carlos F. Pardo

        -----Original Message-----
        From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
        Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
        To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
        #41


        Link is dead

        >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
        >
        >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
        >
        >Simon
        >
        >
        >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
        >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
        >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
        >Carfree Times
        >> #41
        >>
        >> Debra Efroymson said:
        >>
        >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        >>> decades
        >>
        >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
        >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
        >> they're actually serious.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
        >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        ----- ### -----
        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



        Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
        Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Simon Baddeley
        Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
          Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
          use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

          http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

          http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

          Best

          Simon


          > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
          > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
          > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
          > #41
          >
          >
          > Link is dead
          >
          >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
          >>
          >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
          >>
          >> Simon
        • J.H. Crawford
          It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
            It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

            >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
            >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
            >
            >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
            >
            >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
            >
            >Best
            >
            >Simon
            >
            >
            >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
            >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
            >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
            >> #41
            >>
            >>
            >> Link is dead
            >>
            >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
            >>>
            >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
            >>>
            >>> Simon
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
            >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Doug Salzmann
            Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
              Works for me, too.

              If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
              forward the material (all small PDF files).


              -Doug


              On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

              > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
              > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
              >
              > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
              >
              > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
              >
              > Best
              >
              > Simon

              --
              Doug Salzmann
              P.O. Box 1007
              Larkspur, CA 94977
            • Debra Efroymson
              I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                I'm moving to Bhutan.
                Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                least, might help show how car-based societies are
                making us poorer.
                Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                environment/nature and people's well-being into
                measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                keep taking on one issue at a time.
                Debra

                --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                > recently.
                >
                >
                http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                >
                > Simon




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              • J.H. Crawford
                ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
                  Debra said:

                  > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                  >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                  >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                  >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                  >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                  >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                  >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                  >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                  >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                  >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                  >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                  >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                  >making us poorer.
                  > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                  >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                  >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                  >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                  >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                  >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                  >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                  >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                  >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                  > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                  >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                  >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                  >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                  >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                  >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                  The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                  of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                  other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                  own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                  have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                  the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                  currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                  have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                  accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                  to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                  first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                  The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                  is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                  but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                  be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                  There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                  Regards,



                  ----- ### -----
                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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