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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • Simon Baddeley
    I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently. http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm Simon
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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      I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.

      http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm

      Simon


      > From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
      > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
      > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
      > #41
      >
      > Debra Efroymson said:
      >
      >> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      >> decades
      >
      > "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
      > Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
      > they're actually serious.
      >
      >
    • J.H. Crawford
      Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Link is dead

        >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
        >
        >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
        >
        >Simon
        >
        >
        >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
        >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
        >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
        >Carfree Times
        >> #41
        >>
        >> Debra Efroymson said:
        >>
        >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        >>> decades
        >>
        >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
        >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
        >> they're actually serious.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
        >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        ----- ### -----
        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
        Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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          Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

          Best regards,

          Carlos F. Pardo

          -----Original Message-----
          From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
          Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
          To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
          #41


          Link is dead

          >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
          >
          >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
          >
          >Simon
          >
          >
          >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
          >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
          >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
          >Carfree Times
          >> #41
          >>
          >> Debra Efroymson said:
          >>
          >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
          >>> decades
          >>
          >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
          >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
          >> they're actually serious.
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
          >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          ----- ### -----
          J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
          mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



          Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
          Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Simon Baddeley
          Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
            use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

            http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

            http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

            Best

            Simon


            > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
            > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
            > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
            > #41
            >
            >
            > Link is dead
            >
            >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
            >>
            >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
            >>
            >> Simon
          • J.H. Crawford
            It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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              It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

              >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
              >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
              >
              >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
              >
              >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
              >
              >Best
              >
              >Simon
              >
              >
              >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
              >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
              >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
              >> #41
              >>
              >>
              >> Link is dead
              >>
              >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
              >>>
              >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
              >>>
              >>> Simon
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
              >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
              >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • Doug Salzmann
              Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                Works for me, too.

                If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
                forward the material (all small PDF files).


                -Doug


                On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

                > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                >
                > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                >
                > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                >
                > Best
                >
                > Simon

                --
                Doug Salzmann
                P.O. Box 1007
                Larkspur, CA 94977
              • Debra Efroymson
                I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                  I'm moving to Bhutan.
                  Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                  nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                  in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                  is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                  standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                  loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                  population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                  decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                  the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                  course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                  well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                  least, might help show how car-based societies are
                  making us poorer.
                  Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                  hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                  well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                  change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                  shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                  Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                  a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                  class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                  goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                  As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                  terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                  attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                  environment/nature and people's well-being into
                  measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                  keep taking on one issue at a time.
                  Debra

                  --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                  > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                  > recently.
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                  >
                  > Simon




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                • J.H. Crawford
                  ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                    Debra said:

                    > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                    >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                    >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                    >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                    >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                    >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                    >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                    >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                    >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                    >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                    >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                    >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                    >making us poorer.
                    > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                    >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                    >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                    >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                    >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                    >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                    >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                    >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                    >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                    > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                    >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                    >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                    >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                    >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                    >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                    The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                    of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                    other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                    own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                    have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                    the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                    currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                    have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                    accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                    to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                    first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                    The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                    is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                    but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                    be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                    There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                    Regards,



                    ----- ### -----
                    J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                    mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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