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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • J.H. Crawford
    Hi All, ... Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness). I believe that they re actually serious. Regards, ... J.H. Crawford
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
      Hi All,

      Debra Efroymson said:

      > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      >decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
      >good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
      >is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
      >project on this, to get the debate going in various
      >countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
      >Development Index, separate calculations on the state
      >of the environment, have them all incorporated into
      >the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
      >national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
      >and people's health declines, etc.

      Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).
      I believe that they're actually serious.

      Regards,





      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Todd Edelman
      ... J.H. Crawford wrote: Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they re actually serious. This is
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
        Debra Efroymson said:

        > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        >decades

        "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
        Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they're actually serious.


        This is GREAT. We need some definitive answers soon (I suppose just for certain areas so results are not just "preliminary") and it absolutely needs to be very user-friendly... the complete idea needs to be communicated in a 20-second radio or TV spot...

        If anyone knows a graduate student in economics, etc. who is not sure of their thesis, etc subject then take them out for dinner etc, etc. and make a suggestion.

        - Todd, Green Idea Factory






        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Simon Baddeley
        I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently. http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm Simon
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
          I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.

          http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm

          Simon


          > From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
          > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
          > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
          > #41
          >
          > Debra Efroymson said:
          >
          >> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
          >> decades
          >
          > "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
          > Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
          > they're actually serious.
          >
          >
        • J.H. Crawford
          Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
            Link is dead

            >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
            >
            >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
            >
            >Simon
            >
            >
            >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
            >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
            >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
            >Carfree Times
            >> #41
            >>
            >> Debra Efroymson said:
            >>
            >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
            >>> decades
            >>
            >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
            >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
            >> they're actually serious.
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
            >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
            Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
              Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

              Best regards,

              Carlos F. Pardo

              -----Original Message-----
              From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
              Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
              To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
              #41


              Link is dead

              >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
              >
              >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
              >
              >Simon
              >
              >
              >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
              >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
              >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
              >Carfree Times
              >> #41
              >>
              >> Debra Efroymson said:
              >>
              >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
              >>> decades
              >>
              >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
              >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
              >> they're actually serious.
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
              >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
              >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



              Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
              Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
              Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Simon Baddeley
              Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

                http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

                http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

                Best

                Simon


                > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                > #41
                >
                >
                > Link is dead
                >
                >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                >>
                >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                >>
                >> Simon
              • J.H. Crawford
                It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                  It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

                  >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                  >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                  >
                  >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                  >
                  >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                  >
                  >Best
                  >
                  >Simon
                  >
                  >
                  >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                  >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                  >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                  >> #41
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Link is dead
                  >>
                  >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                  >>>
                  >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                  >>>
                  >>> Simon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                  >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ----- ### -----
                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                • Doug Salzmann
                  Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                    Works for me, too.

                    If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
                    forward the material (all small PDF files).


                    -Doug


                    On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

                    > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                    > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                    >
                    > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                    >
                    > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                    >
                    > Best
                    >
                    > Simon

                    --
                    Doug Salzmann
                    P.O. Box 1007
                    Larkspur, CA 94977
                  • Debra Efroymson
                    I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
                      I'm moving to Bhutan.
                      Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                      nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                      in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                      is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                      standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                      loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                      population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                      decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                      the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                      course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                      well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                      least, might help show how car-based societies are
                      making us poorer.
                      Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                      hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                      well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                      change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                      shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                      Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                      a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                      class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                      goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                      As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                      terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                      attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                      environment/nature and people's well-being into
                      measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                      keep taking on one issue at a time.
                      Debra

                      --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                      > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                      > recently.
                      >
                      >
                      http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                      >
                      > Simon




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                    • J.H. Crawford
                      ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
                        Debra said:

                        > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                        >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                        >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                        >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                        >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                        >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                        >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                        >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                        >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                        >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                        >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                        >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                        >making us poorer.
                        > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                        >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                        >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                        >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                        >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                        >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                        >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                        >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                        >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                        > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                        >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                        >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                        >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                        >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                        >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                        The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                        of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                        other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                        own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                        have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                        the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                        currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                        have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                        accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                        to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                        first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                        The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                        is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                        but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                        be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                        There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                        Regards,



                        ----- ### -----
                        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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