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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • Simon Baddeley
    You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy. http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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      You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy.

      http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
      http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/page178.html
      http://www.psi.org.uk/research/project.asp?project_id=137

      ... And many more.

      One of the lead advocates in the UK is Dr Meyer Hillman. He suggests we
      carry a carbon credit card and a mind set that relates all we do to its
      energy cost.

      Best

      Simon


      > From: Debra Efroymson <anima1205@...>
      > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:05:23 -0800 (PST)
      > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
      > #41
      >
      > Hi all. OK, here's my question. What if when
      > governments calculated national wealth, they took into
      > account all those "indirect costs"; that is, rather
      > than just looking at the market economy (cars cost
      > more than bicycles, and so are better), looked at the
      > effect of purchases on the environment and people's
      > health/well-being. Then suddenly bicycle purchases
      > would prove far more economically productive than
      > cars--or more accurately, people on bikes would be an
      > economic benefit, people in cars a loss. Call me
      > crazy but I believe that if we could somehow convince
      > governments (ah, but there's the catch!) to
      > incorporate other considerations into wealth
      > calculations, then the whole basis for making all
      > these destructive decisions would be overturned, and
      > suddenly we'd have utopia (wink).
      > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      > decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
      > good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
      > is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
      > project on this, to get the debate going in various
      > countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
      > Development Index, separate calculations on the state
      > of the environment, have them all incorporated into
      > the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
      > national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
      > and people's health declines, etc.
      >
    • J.H. Crawford
      Hi All, ... Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness). I believe that they re actually serious. Regards, ... J.H. Crawford
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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        Hi All,

        Debra Efroymson said:

        > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        >decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
        >good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
        >is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
        >project on this, to get the debate going in various
        >countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
        >Development Index, separate calculations on the state
        >of the environment, have them all incorporated into
        >the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
        >national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
        >and people's health declines, etc.

        Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).
        I believe that they're actually serious.

        Regards,





        ----- ### -----
        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • Todd Edelman
        ... J.H. Crawford wrote: Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they re actually serious. This is
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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          Debra Efroymson said:

          > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
          >decades

          "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
          Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they're actually serious.


          This is GREAT. We need some definitive answers soon (I suppose just for certain areas so results are not just "preliminary") and it absolutely needs to be very user-friendly... the complete idea needs to be communicated in a 20-second radio or TV spot...

          If anyone knows a graduate student in economics, etc. who is not sure of their thesis, etc subject then take them out for dinner etc, etc. and make a suggestion.

          - Todd, Green Idea Factory






          ---------------------------------
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        • Simon Baddeley
          I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently. http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm Simon
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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            I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.

            http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm

            Simon


            > From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
            > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
            > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
            > #41
            >
            > Debra Efroymson said:
            >
            >> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
            >> decades
            >
            > "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
            > Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
            > they're actually serious.
            >
            >
          • J.H. Crawford
            Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Link is dead

              >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
              >
              >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
              >
              >Simon
              >
              >
              >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
              >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
              >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
              >Carfree Times
              >> #41
              >>
              >> Debra Efroymson said:
              >>
              >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
              >>> decades
              >>
              >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
              >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
              >> they're actually serious.
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
              >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
              >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
              Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

                Best regards,

                Carlos F. Pardo

                -----Original Message-----
                From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
                Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
                To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                #41


                Link is dead

                >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                >
                >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                >
                >Simon
                >
                >
                >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
                >Carfree Times
                >> #41
                >>
                >> Debra Efroymson said:
                >>
                >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                >>> decades
                >>
                >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                >> they're actually serious.
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ----- ### -----
                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



                Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
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              • Simon Baddeley
                Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                  Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                  use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

                  http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

                  http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

                  Best

                  Simon


                  > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                  > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                  > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                  > #41
                  >
                  >
                  > Link is dead
                  >
                  >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                  >>
                  >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                  >>
                  >> Simon
                • J.H. Crawford
                  It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                    It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

                    >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                    >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                    >
                    >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                    >
                    >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                    >
                    >Best
                    >
                    >Simon
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                    >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                    >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                    >> #41
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Link is dead
                    >>
                    >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                    >>>
                    >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                    >>>
                    >>> Simon
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                    >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    ----- ### -----
                    J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                    mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                  • Doug Salzmann
                    Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                      Works for me, too.

                      If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
                      forward the material (all small PDF files).


                      -Doug


                      On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

                      > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                      > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                      >
                      > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                      >
                      > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                      >
                      > Best
                      >
                      > Simon

                      --
                      Doug Salzmann
                      P.O. Box 1007
                      Larkspur, CA 94977
                    • Debra Efroymson
                      I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                        I'm moving to Bhutan.
                        Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                        nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                        in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                        is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                        standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                        loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                        population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                        decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                        the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                        course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                        well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                        least, might help show how car-based societies are
                        making us poorer.
                        Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                        hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                        well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                        change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                        shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                        Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                        a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                        class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                        goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                        As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                        terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                        attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                        environment/nature and people's well-being into
                        measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                        keep taking on one issue at a time.
                        Debra

                        --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                        > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                        > recently.
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                        >
                        > Simon




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                      • J.H. Crawford
                        ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                          Debra said:

                          > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                          >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                          >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                          >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                          >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                          >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                          >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                          >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                          >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                          >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                          >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                          >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                          >making us poorer.
                          > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                          >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                          >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                          >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                          >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                          >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                          >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                          >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                          >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                          > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                          >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                          >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                          >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                          >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                          >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                          The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                          of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                          other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                          own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                          have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                          the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                          currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                          have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                          accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                          to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                          first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                          The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                          is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                          but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                          be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                          There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                          Regards,



                          ----- ### -----
                          J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                          mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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