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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • Debra Efroymson
    Hi all. OK, here s my question. What if when governments calculated national wealth, they took into account all those indirect costs ; that is, rather than
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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      Hi all. OK, here's my question. What if when
      governments calculated national wealth, they took into
      account all those "indirect costs"; that is, rather
      than just looking at the market economy (cars cost
      more than bicycles, and so are better), looked at the
      effect of purchases on the environment and people's
      health/well-being. Then suddenly bicycle purchases
      would prove far more economically productive than
      cars--or more accurately, people on bikes would be an
      economic benefit, people in cars a loss. Call me
      crazy but I believe that if we could somehow convince
      governments (ah, but there's the catch!) to
      incorporate other considerations into wealth
      calculations, then the whole basis for making all
      these destructive decisions would be overturned, and
      suddenly we'd have utopia (wink).
      I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
      decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
      good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
      is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
      project on this, to get the debate going in various
      countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
      Development Index, separate calculations on the state
      of the environment, have them all incorporated into
      the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
      national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
      and people's health declines, etc.
      Debra Efroymson

      --- Ian Fiddies <v03fiia@...> wrote:

      > <I don't know, but I am very, very worried.
      >




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    • Simon Baddeley
      You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy. http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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        You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy.

        http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
        http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/page178.html
        http://www.psi.org.uk/research/project.asp?project_id=137

        ... And many more.

        One of the lead advocates in the UK is Dr Meyer Hillman. He suggests we
        carry a carbon credit card and a mind set that relates all we do to its
        energy cost.

        Best

        Simon


        > From: Debra Efroymson <anima1205@...>
        > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:05:23 -0800 (PST)
        > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
        > #41
        >
        > Hi all. OK, here's my question. What if when
        > governments calculated national wealth, they took into
        > account all those "indirect costs"; that is, rather
        > than just looking at the market economy (cars cost
        > more than bicycles, and so are better), looked at the
        > effect of purchases on the environment and people's
        > health/well-being. Then suddenly bicycle purchases
        > would prove far more economically productive than
        > cars--or more accurately, people on bikes would be an
        > economic benefit, people in cars a loss. Call me
        > crazy but I believe that if we could somehow convince
        > governments (ah, but there's the catch!) to
        > incorporate other considerations into wealth
        > calculations, then the whole basis for making all
        > these destructive decisions would be overturned, and
        > suddenly we'd have utopia (wink).
        > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        > decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
        > good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
        > is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
        > project on this, to get the debate going in various
        > countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
        > Development Index, separate calculations on the state
        > of the environment, have them all incorporated into
        > the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
        > national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
        > and people's health declines, etc.
        >
      • J.H. Crawford
        Hi All, ... Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness). I believe that they re actually serious. Regards, ... J.H. Crawford
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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          Hi All,

          Debra Efroymson said:

          > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
          >decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
          >good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
          >is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
          >project on this, to get the debate going in various
          >countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
          >Development Index, separate calculations on the state
          >of the environment, have them all incorporated into
          >the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
          >national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
          >and people's health declines, etc.

          Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).
          I believe that they're actually serious.

          Regards,





          ----- ### -----
          J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
          mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
        • Todd Edelman
          ... J.H. Crawford wrote: Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they re actually serious. This is
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Debra Efroymson said:

            > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
            >decades

            "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
            Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they're actually serious.


            This is GREAT. We need some definitive answers soon (I suppose just for certain areas so results are not just "preliminary") and it absolutely needs to be very user-friendly... the complete idea needs to be communicated in a 20-second radio or TV spot...

            If anyone knows a graduate student in economics, etc. who is not sure of their thesis, etc subject then take them out for dinner etc, etc. and make a suggestion.

            - Todd, Green Idea Factory






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          • Simon Baddeley
            I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently. http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm Simon
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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              I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.

              http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm

              Simon


              > From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
              > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
              > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
              > #41
              >
              > Debra Efroymson said:
              >
              >> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
              >> decades
              >
              > "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
              > Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
              > they're actually serious.
              >
              >
            • J.H. Crawford
              Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                Link is dead

                >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                >
                >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                >
                >Simon
                >
                >
                >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
                >Carfree Times
                >> #41
                >>
                >> Debra Efroymson said:
                >>
                >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                >>> decades
                >>
                >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                >> they're actually serious.
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ----- ### -----
                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
              • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
                Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                  Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

                  Best regards,

                  Carlos F. Pardo

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
                  Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
                  To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                  #41


                  Link is dead

                  >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                  >
                  >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                  >
                  >Simon
                  >
                  >
                  >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                  >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                  >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
                  >Carfree Times
                  >> #41
                  >>
                  >> Debra Efroymson said:
                  >>
                  >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                  >>> decades
                  >>
                  >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                  >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                  >> they're actually serious.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                  >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ----- ### -----
                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



                  Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                  Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Simon Baddeley
                  Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                    Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                    use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

                    http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

                    http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

                    Best

                    Simon


                    > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                    > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                    > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                    > #41
                    >
                    >
                    > Link is dead
                    >
                    >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                    >>
                    >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                    >>
                    >> Simon
                  • J.H. Crawford
                    It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                      It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

                      >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                      >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                      >
                      >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                      >
                      >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                      >
                      >Best
                      >
                      >Simon
                      >
                      >
                      >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                      >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                      >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                      >> #41
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Link is dead
                      >>
                      >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                      >>>
                      >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                      >>>
                      >>> Simon
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                      >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                      >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      ----- ### -----
                      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                    • Doug Salzmann
                      Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                        Works for me, too.

                        If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
                        forward the material (all small PDF files).


                        -Doug


                        On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

                        > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                        > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                        >
                        > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                        >
                        > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                        >
                        > Best
                        >
                        > Simon

                        --
                        Doug Salzmann
                        P.O. Box 1007
                        Larkspur, CA 94977
                      • Debra Efroymson
                        I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                          I'm moving to Bhutan.
                          Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                          nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                          in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                          is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                          standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                          loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                          population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                          decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                          the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                          course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                          well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                          least, might help show how car-based societies are
                          making us poorer.
                          Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                          hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                          well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                          change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                          shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                          Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                          a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                          class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                          goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                          As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                          terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                          attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                          environment/nature and people's well-being into
                          measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                          keep taking on one issue at a time.
                          Debra

                          --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                          > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                          > recently.
                          >
                          >
                          http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                          >
                          > Simon




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                        • J.H. Crawford
                          ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                            Debra said:

                            > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                            >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                            >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                            >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                            >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                            >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                            >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                            >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                            >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                            >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                            >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                            >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                            >making us poorer.
                            > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                            >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                            >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                            >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                            >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                            >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                            >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                            >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                            >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                            > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                            >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                            >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                            >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                            >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                            >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                            The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                            of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                            other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                            own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                            have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                            the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                            currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                            have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                            accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                            to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                            first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                            The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                            is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                            but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                            be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                            There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                            Regards,



                            ----- ### -----
                            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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