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Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times #41

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  • Ian Fiddies
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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      <I don't know, but I am very, very worried.



      I'm also worried but lets take a look on the bright side.

      -Climate change has become mainstream.

      -In the EU we have a law forcing the authorities to ensure a (albeit
      insufficient) maximum permitted level of pollution. A handy crowbar that I'm
      already beating my own local government about the head with.

      -Last year there was a Critical Mass with more than 20,000 participants.

      -London and Stockholm have introduced tolls on cars entering the city.

      -Flanders is handing out bus passes to those who lose their cars. the list
      of successes is long.

      Not long enough yet but growing.



      These things are happening for two reasons; the first is the obvious one
      that car driving is essentially ridiculous. The second reason is that people
      like you, Joel and the rest of the people reading this, are working hard to
      point out just how ridiculous it is.



      Keep being worried; you need to be and we need you to be but thanks for all
      the good work. Keep it up!



      and a happy end of the b..... holidays



      Ian Fiddies
    • Debra Efroymson
      Hi all. OK, here s my question. What if when governments calculated national wealth, they took into account all those indirect costs ; that is, rather than
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 3, 2006
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        Hi all. OK, here's my question. What if when
        governments calculated national wealth, they took into
        account all those "indirect costs"; that is, rather
        than just looking at the market economy (cars cost
        more than bicycles, and so are better), looked at the
        effect of purchases on the environment and people's
        health/well-being. Then suddenly bicycle purchases
        would prove far more economically productive than
        cars--or more accurately, people on bikes would be an
        economic benefit, people in cars a loss. Call me
        crazy but I believe that if we could somehow convince
        governments (ah, but there's the catch!) to
        incorporate other considerations into wealth
        calculations, then the whole basis for making all
        these destructive decisions would be overturned, and
        suddenly we'd have utopia (wink).
        I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
        decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
        good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
        is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
        project on this, to get the debate going in various
        countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
        Development Index, separate calculations on the state
        of the environment, have them all incorporated into
        the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
        national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
        and people's health declines, etc.
        Debra Efroymson

        --- Ian Fiddies <v03fiia@...> wrote:

        > <I don't know, but I am very, very worried.
        >




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      • Simon Baddeley
        You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy. http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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          You are in part talking about the idea of a carbon taxed economy.

          http://www.livingstreets.org.uk/page.php?pageid=279¤tPage=1
          http://www.greeneconomics.org.uk/page178.html
          http://www.psi.org.uk/research/project.asp?project_id=137

          ... And many more.

          One of the lead advocates in the UK is Dr Meyer Hillman. He suggests we
          carry a carbon credit card and a mind set that relates all we do to its
          energy cost.

          Best

          Simon


          > From: Debra Efroymson <anima1205@...>
          > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:05:23 -0800 (PST)
          > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
          > #41
          >
          > Hi all. OK, here's my question. What if when
          > governments calculated national wealth, they took into
          > account all those "indirect costs"; that is, rather
          > than just looking at the market economy (cars cost
          > more than bicycles, and so are better), looked at the
          > effect of purchases on the environment and people's
          > health/well-being. Then suddenly bicycle purchases
          > would prove far more economically productive than
          > cars--or more accurately, people on bikes would be an
          > economic benefit, people in cars a loss. Call me
          > crazy but I believe that if we could somehow convince
          > governments (ah, but there's the catch!) to
          > incorporate other considerations into wealth
          > calculations, then the whole basis for making all
          > these destructive decisions would be overturned, and
          > suddenly we'd have utopia (wink).
          > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
          > decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
          > good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
          > is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
          > project on this, to get the debate going in various
          > countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
          > Development Index, separate calculations on the state
          > of the environment, have them all incorporated into
          > the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
          > national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
          > and people's health declines, etc.
          >
        • J.H. Crawford
          Hi All, ... Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness). I believe that they re actually serious. Regards, ... J.H. Crawford
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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            Hi All,

            Debra Efroymson said:

            > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
            >decades, and others obviously have as well; it seems a
            >good place for us to get involved as well. If anyone
            >is interested, I'd love to know, as I plan to start a
            >project on this, to get the debate going in various
            >countries. That is, rather than a separate Human
            >Development Index, separate calculations on the state
            >of the environment, have them all incorporated into
            >the measures of national wealth/well-being; that
            >national wealth declines as we destroy the environment
            >and people's health declines, etc.

            Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).
            I believe that they're actually serious.

            Regards,





            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Todd Edelman
            ... J.H. Crawford wrote: Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they re actually serious. This is
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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              Debra Efroymson said:

              > I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
              >decades

              "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
              Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that they're actually serious.


              This is GREAT. We need some definitive answers soon (I suppose just for certain areas so results are not just "preliminary") and it absolutely needs to be very user-friendly... the complete idea needs to be communicated in a 20-second radio or TV spot...

              If anyone knows a graduate student in economics, etc. who is not sure of their thesis, etc subject then take them out for dinner etc, etc. and make a suggestion.

              - Todd, Green Idea Factory






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            • Simon Baddeley
              I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently. http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm Simon
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.

                http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm

                Simon


                > From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                > #41
                >
                > Debra Efroymson said:
                >
                >> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                >> decades
                >
                > "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                > Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                > they're actually serious.
                >
                >
              • J.H. Crawford
                Link is dead ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                  Link is dead

                  >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                  >
                  >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                  >
                  >Simon
                  >
                  >
                  >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                  >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                  >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
                  >Carfree Times
                  >> #41
                  >>
                  >> Debra Efroymson said:
                  >>
                  >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                  >>> decades
                  >>
                  >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                  >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                  >> they're actually serious.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                  >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  ----- ### -----
                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
                  Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link? Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo ... From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                    Sorry, but it worked for me! Does anybody else have a problem with the link?

                    Best regards,

                    Carlos F. Pardo

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of J.H. Crawford
                    Sent: Miércoles, 04 de Enero de 2006 04:39 p.m.
                    To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                    #41


                    Link is dead

                    >I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                    >
                    >http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                    >
                    >Simon
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
                    >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:20:15 +0000 (GMT)
                    >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities]
                    >Carfree Times
                    >> #41
                    >>
                    >> Debra Efroymson said:
                    >>
                    >>> I know Marilyn Waring has been working on this for
                    >>> decades
                    >>
                    >> "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
                    >> Bhutan is now looking at GNH (Gross National Happiness).I believe that
                    >> they're actually serious.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                    >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    ----- ### -----
                    J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                    mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com



                    Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                    Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Simon Baddeley
                    Not for me it isn t. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                      Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                      use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:

                      http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf

                      http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508

                      Best

                      Simon


                      > From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                      > Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                      > To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                      > #41
                      >
                      >
                      > Link is dead
                      >
                      >> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                      >>
                      >> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                      >>
                      >> Simon
                    • J.H. Crawford
                      It s working again; must have been a transient failure. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                        It's working again; must have been a transient failure.

                        >Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                        >use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                        >
                        >http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                        >
                        >http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                        >
                        >Best
                        >
                        >Simon
                        >
                        >
                        >> From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                        >> Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                        >> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:39:17 +0000
                        >> To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                        >> Subject: Re: cft: Editorial: Irritation / Re: [carfree_cities] Carfree Times
                        >> #41
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Link is dead
                        >>
                        >>> I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India recently.
                        >>>
                        >>> http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                        >>>
                        >>> Simon
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                        >Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                        >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        ----- ### -----
                        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                      • Doug Salzmann
                        Works for me, too. If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to forward the material (all small PDF files). -Doug ... -- Doug Salzmann
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                          Works for me, too.

                          If you continue having trouble, it should be easy for others of us to
                          forward the material (all small PDF files).


                          -Doug


                          On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Simon Baddeley wrote:

                          > Not for me it isn't. I have just had another look at it. I have Safari and
                          > use an Apple (does that make any difference?) but try:
                          >
                          > http://www.thdl.org/texts/reprints/jbs/JBS_06_03.pdf
                          >
                          > http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=16508
                          >
                          > Best
                          >
                          > Simon

                          --
                          Doug Salzmann
                          P.O. Box 1007
                          Larkspur, CA 94977
                        • Debra Efroymson
                          I m moving to Bhutan. Seriously, what I m talking about is looking at nature and human well-being as assets, to be included in wealth, and deducted when they
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 4, 2006
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                            I'm moving to Bhutan.
                            Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                            nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                            in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                            is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                            standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                            loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                            population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                            decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                            the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                            course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                            well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                            least, might help show how car-based societies are
                            making us poorer.
                            Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                            hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                            well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                            change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                            shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                            Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                            a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                            class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                            goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                            As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                            terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                            attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                            environment/nature and people's well-being into
                            measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                            keep taking on one issue at a time.
                            Debra

                            --- Simon Baddeley <s.j.baddeley@...> wrote:

                            > I was shown conference papers on GNH while in India
                            > recently.
                            >
                            >
                            http://www.bhutanstudies.org.bt/publications/gnh/gnh.htm
                            >
                            > Simon




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                          • J.H. Crawford
                            ... The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the other is a second economy based on
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 5, 2006
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                              Debra said:

                              > Seriously, what I'm talking about is looking at
                              >nature and human well-being as assets, to be included
                              >in wealth, and deducted when they are harmed. That
                              >is, a country would become measurably poorer (by
                              >standard measurements of wealth) if, for instance, it
                              >loses forest, or pollutes its rivers and lakes, or the
                              >population becomes more obese and life expectancy
                              >decreases...even if by measures of the market economy,
                              >the country is gaining wealth. One of the problems of
                              >course is assigning monetary value to nature and
                              >well-being--but it seems that an attempt to do so, at
                              >least, might help show how car-based societies are
                              >making us poorer.
                              > Since governments (at least that of the US, but
                              >hardly only the US) seem only to care about economic
                              >well-being, it doesn't help to talk about climate
                              >change, loss of species, etc.--unless those can be
                              >shown to make us poorer. Lester Thurow (in Zero Sum
                              >Society) also talks about how nature is in some sense
                              >a consumable--enjoyed and valued by the middle
                              >class--so it should be ranked among other consumer
                              >goods as something desirable in economic terms.
                              > As I understand, it took putting HIV/AIDS into
                              >terms of economic loss to make many governments pay
                              >attention; if we could "mainstream" the
                              >environment/nature and people's well-being into
                              >measurements of national wealth, we wouldn't have to
                              >keep taking on one issue at a time.

                              The problem is that what is really needed is TWO systems
                              of accounting. One is the money we have today, and the
                              other is a "second economy" based on intangibles with its
                              own currency. When you bought a gallon of gas, you would
                              have to pay in two currencies, one for Exxon and one for
                              the people of Nigeria. Now, keeping track of just one
                              currency is trouble enough already. So, we're going to
                              have to monetize the other costs and use the existing
                              accounting system to keep track. Nations are going to have
                              to decide on the non-economic costs of cutting down a
                              first-growth tree or adding a ton of CO2 to the atmosphere.

                              The first attempts will undervalue these "goods", which
                              is probably ok, as it reduces the economic dislocation,
                              but over time, these non-economic costs should come to
                              be valued at a level that reasonably reflects their worth.

                              There's a Nobel in economics here for somebody...

                              Regards,



                              ----- ### -----
                              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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