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Re: [carfree_cities] Only three of us... plus Denny Hastert?

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  • Richard Risemberg
    I myself agree with you, Doug. I think opposition to our view will be fierce, and indeed, Mayor Nagin has already excoriated Hastert for saying hwat he did.
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 2, 2005
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      I myself agree with you, Doug. I think opposition to our view will be fierce, and indeed, Mayor Nagin has already excoriated Hastert for saying hwat he did. However, there are dozens of reason to let the present site of New Orleans revert to wetland--not least of which, along with human safety, is the health of the Gul of Mexico itself, which is suffering greatly from agricultural runoff; this is something a large wetlands in that area would alleviate somewhat. Sinc emuch of the Gulf Coast economy depends on fishing, even a partial rehabilitation of the Gulf's present "dead zone" would help offset the costs of relocating New Orleans farther inland, or wherever. Joel, who worked on flood issues in NO, would have better suggestions than I.

      A carfree or partially-carfree city in a new location, with an extension to the present French Quarter, would provide an opportunity not only to rebuild a healthy community but to maximaze tourist-income potential, as many have already pointed out on this list.

      Overcoming inertia, short-term thinking, and plain human stubbernness will be difficult, though. But we oughta try.

      Richard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Doug Salzmann <doug@...>

      It is clear from recent postings that Joel, Todd and I agree that it is
      inadvisable (to put it mildly) to expend the massive resources necessary
      to rebuild New Orleans, if that means doing so on an "as-was, where-is"
      basis. Such an effort would result, simply, in recreating a human-rich
      target for the next similar disaster, which is very likely to arise within
      a few decades, at most.
    • Andrew Hitchcock
      I agree as well, I just didn t want to flood the list with a bunch of me too . Louisiana Governor Blanco was also offended by Hastert s comments.
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 2, 2005
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        I agree as well, I just didn't want to flood the list with a bunch of 'me
        too'.

        Louisiana Governor Blanco was also offended by Hastert's comments.

        http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4928087/detail.html

        Unfortunately, there will be lots of opposition to rebuilding in a
        different spot. I've blogged about the economic effects, how biodiesel is
        now cheaper than petrodiesel, and rebuilding New Orleans carfree in this
        blog post:

        http://liberalechochamber.blogspot.com/2005/09/new-new-orleans.html

        My readership is near zero and my blog has yet to be indexed by Google, so
        unfortunately it probably won't do much good. However, I'm trying to link
        to it from a number of places to get the word out. We should try to get
        our idea in the heads of lots of people right away; it should be in the
        back of their mind when discussions begin on a larger scale. I suggest a
        call to arms from everyone on this list to post about the issue, or at
        least link to like Joel's Carfree Times which talks about it.

        Andrew

        > I myself agree with you, Doug. I think opposition to our view will be
        > fierce, and indeed, Mayor Nagin has already excoriated Hastert for saying
        > hwat he did. However, there are dozens of reason to let the present site
        > of New Orleans revert to wetland--not least of which, along with human
        > safety, is the health of the Gul of Mexico itself, which is suffering
        > greatly from agricultural runoff; this is something a large wetlands in
        > that area would alleviate somewhat. Sinc emuch of the Gulf Coast economy
        > depends on fishing, even a partial rehabilitation of the Gulf's present
        > "dead zone" would help offset the costs of relocating New Orleans farther
        > inland, or wherever. Joel, who worked on flood issues in NO, would have
        > better suggestions than I.
        >
        > A carfree or partially-carfree city in a new location, with an extension
        > to the present French Quarter, would provide an opportunity not only to
        > rebuild a healthy community but to maximaze tourist-income potential, as
        > many have already pointed out on this list.
        >
        > Overcoming inertia, short-term thinking, and plain human stubbernness will
        > be difficult, though. But we oughta try.
        >
        > Richard
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Doug Salzmann <doug@...>
        >
        > It is clear from recent postings that Joel, Todd and I agree that it is
        > inadvisable (to put it mildly) to expend the massive resources necessary
        > to rebuild New Orleans, if that means doing so on an "as-was, where-is"
        > basis. Such an effort would result, simply, in recreating a human-rich
        > target for the next similar disaster, which is very likely to arise within
        > a few decades, at most.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
        > Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Simon Baddeley
        5 days after Katrina? I¹m trying to think what my reaction would be to a suggestion we move and rebuild a flooded London less than a week after it happened.
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 2, 2005
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          5 days after Katrina?

          I¹m trying to think what my reaction would be to a suggestion we move and
          rebuild a flooded London less than a week after it happened. It¹s a bit like
          talking about the will before the funeral.

          There is a delicate balance between bold and sometimes ruthless creative
          policy thought and ill timed insensitive logic.

          Simon




          From: Doug Salzmann <doug@...>
          Reply-To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:36:42 -0700 (PDT)
          To: Carfree Cities List <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [carfree_cities] Only three of us... plus Denny Hastert?

          Do you all simply disagree, believing that rebuilding New Orleans in that
          bowl near the edge of the Gulf is actually a good idea?

          Is it your view that, for some reason or reasons, we should not advocate a
          relocation/redesign of the ravaged city, although that might be a good
          idea under other circumstances?

          Help me out, please. What am I missing here?



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Doug Salzmann
          ... You bet, Simon. And not a moment too soon. Unless it is diverted at the very start, it will probably be utterly impossible to to resist the
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 2, 2005
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            On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Simon Baddeley wrote:

            > 5 days after Katrina?

            You bet, Simon. And not a moment too soon.

            Unless it is diverted at the very start, it will probably be utterly
            impossible to to resist the emotion-driven, fuzzy-headed groundswell
            (encouraged and led by self-serving politicians and their constituents --
            the ruthless, thoughtless capitalists who can already smell the *vast*
            sums of money about to rain down on the region) that will arise insisting
            that New Orleans be rebuilt exactly as before, but behind better, safer levees.

            Now, right now, is the *only* time to try to prevent the monumental
            stupidity that is sure to result from this disaster and the craven
            manipulation of the aftermath.

            > There is a delicate balance between bold and sometimes ruthless creative
            > policy thought and ill timed insensitive logic.

            Perhaps. If so, I think you may have misjudged that balance in this case.

            I'm much more worried about wasting perhaps a hundred billion dollars
            (yes, I mean that) to place tens of thousands of poor people *back* in the
            path of near-certain disaster than I am about offending local pride.

            One can get over the latter. As is so glaringly apparent at this very
            moment, the former has a tendency to kill. Dead people aren't proud.


            -Doug





            ==================
            Doug Salzmann
            P.O. Box 1007
            Larkspur, CA 94977
          • Mike Neuman
            Americans are different than Europeans in several respects, and perhaps this is one of them. The decision on whether to rebuild the City of New Orleans on new
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 2, 2005
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              Americans are different than Europeans in several respects, and
              perhaps this is one of them.

              The decision on whether to rebuild the City of New Orleans on new
              location versus on existing (former) location OBVIOUSLY must be made
              soon. If the decision is to rebuild on new location, buildings could
              be going up as we speak. Houses don't take that long to build anymore
              the number of homeless families will number in the tens if not
              hundreds of thousands.

              The sooner the decision is made, the better.

              As for my vote, I think they'd be crazy to rebuild the city at the
              existing location. The reason is because not only will hurricanes
              get more powerful in the future (because the sea temperatures are
              predicted to increase), but sea level (without the hurricanes) is
              also predicted to rise. Perhaps they could build temporary
              structures or design for a 10-year life, but even that would be
              risky.

              This tragedy should open up some eyes, I hope, to the impending much
              more calamitous tragedy of global warming, which threatens us all and
              succeeding generations even worse: with horrendous heat waves, more
              flooding, more drought, more disease, mass animal and plant
              extinction, and more famine (not just Africa). The current
              administration, with help from the National Weather Service, the
              Congress, Exxon, the coal industry, and the mainstream media (among
              others) have been lying to the American people on this issue for far
              too long, just to maintain the status quo and keep things running
              smooth (with Americans continuing to burn more oil in transportation,
              to buy more automobiles and SUVs, and so that power companies will
              continue to burn more coal in electricity generating power plants).
              It's time for Americans to wake up to the reality of the situation
              that they are creating for themselves and for the rest of the world.

              Sea Level Rises 1880 - 1980 (first graph):
              http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/19.htm

              Potential Sea Level Rises
              http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/24.htm

              Potential Changes in Temperature
              http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/23.htm


              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Simon Baddeley
              <s.j.baddeley@b...> wrote:
              > 5 days after Katrina?
              >
              > I¹m trying to think what my reaction would be to a suggestion we
              move and
              > rebuild a flooded London less than a week after it happened.
              It¹s a
              bit like
              > talking about the will before the funeral.
              >
              > There is a delicate balance between bold and sometimes ruthless
              creative
              > policy thought and ill timed insensitive logic.
            • Mike Neuman
              ... Here is a link to a proposal I wrote awhile back for the state which I live in (State of Wisconsin) to do its fair share in responding to the global
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 3, 2005
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                mtneuman said:

                > This tragedy should open up some eyes, I hope, to the impending much
                > more calamitous tragedy of global warming, which threatens us all ...

                Here is a link to a proposal I wrote awhile back for the state which I
                live in (State of Wisconsin) to do its fair share in responding to the
                global warming threat. The mechanics of the proposal could be applied
                elsewhere.

                This is the kind of systems-level economic change that I believe is
                necessary to confront the global warming threat. Among other things,
                it would promote car-free cities by financially rewarding through
                annual monetary incentives ("rebates") individuals and families who
                can show they didn't drive at all over the year, or drove very little.
                This would be verified by using data bases for odometer mileages of
                registered vehicles, drivers license records, insurance company
                records as well as signed certificates.

                The potential rewards ($400 - $1,200/yr.) would have to be enough to
                entice middle income families to drive less; but for families at
                subsistence level - like many of those who live in the New Orleans
                area - they could be the difference between living in a "make" or a
                "break" situation.

                Conserve, NOW!
                http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gMgZQwCnQpDofRIp8vTlF7NdYtC3P0M7ij9oqvgl7k4nwmalWU3xxRQemoWpKVbe81H6ygRpskCiA2v1BS0-4sEhBbgvr_k/ConserveNOW.pdf

                If you can't access it from the above link, you might want to consider
                joining "Climate Change Politics":

                climatechangepolitics@yahoogroups.com
                climatechangepolitics-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Below a link to an article posted on the "climatechangepolitics" group
                today by the group owner. Patriot Americans, please consider yourself
                forewarned.

                Mike Neuman

                Katrina comes home to roost
                By Sidney Blumenthal
                Friday September 2, 2005
                http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1561246,00.html
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