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Need a lift ? (was "elevator wars")

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  • Todd Edelman
    Hi everyone, I feel bad that I contributed to pushing the elevator/lift discussion to the point where people were yelling, being insulting etc. In this whole
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
      Hi everyone,

      I feel bad that I contributed to pushing the
      elevator/lift discussion to the point where people
      were yelling, being insulting etc.

      In this whole discussion there seemed to be just ONE
      message from the developing world (from Anima equating
      cars with elevators in liftlite Dhaka).

      So, my main question, which I never really asked, is
      IF people in developing world in existing and future
      four story buildings ARE interested in elevators more
      than "that would be nice but we have other
      priorities". Likely the answer is no... but I would
      feel better knowing some more opinions from these
      regions themselves.

      Todd





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    • Debra Efroymson
      If I may be allowed to speak again--in all my travels and years living in the developing world, I almost never see anyone in a wheelchair except in hospitals.
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
        If I may be allowed to speak again--in all my travels
        and years living in the developing world, I almost
        never see anyone in a wheelchair except in hospitals.
        Forget buildings; the streets and sidewalks are
        impossible. I would say there's a lot more to do
        before worrying about elevators, like sidewalks where
        there are none, or better ones where they are
        unusable. The disabled also form a group encompassing
        far more than those in wheelchairs; there are plenty
        of problems to solve in addition to access to upper
        floors.
        Anima

        --- Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
        wrote:

        > Hi everyone,
        >
        > I feel bad that I contributed to pushing the
        > elevator/lift discussion to the point where people
        > were yelling, being insulting etc.
        >
        > In this whole discussion there seemed to be just ONE
        > message from the developing world (from Anima
        > equating
        > cars with elevators in liftlite Dhaka).
        >
        > So, my main question, which I never really asked, is
        > IF people in developing world in existing and future
        > four story buildings ARE interested in elevators
        > more
        > than "that would be nice but we have other
        > priorities". Likely the answer is no... but I would
        > feel better knowing some more opinions from these
        > regions themselves.
        >
        > Todd
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ___________________________________________________________
        >
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        > calling worldwide with voicemail
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        >
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




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      • Carlos F. Pardo V.
        Dear all, I was just asked a question that I think is worth asking to more people before answering it. I have been in the (rather difficult) process of helping
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
          Dear all,



          I was just asked a question that I think is worth asking to more people
          before answering it. I have been in the (rather difficult) process of
          helping Bangkok officials try to organize a car-free day in their city. They
          have posed may questions, and most of them are basically "textbook", so
          there's no problem. But after a while of discussing they asked me if
          motorcycles should or should not be allowed to move during a car free day.
          My inmediate answer would be no, since a motorcycle is also dangerous (more
          than a car, I would say), polluting (mostly if it's two-stroke, but
          polluting nonetheless) and motorised! However, and to a great extent in
          Asia, a lot of low income people use motorcycles as their main mode of
          transport, sometimes even taking their wife and kids (2 or three of them!)
          in the same vehicle (allegedly because they don't have the means to pay for
          a very low transport fare).



          Also, though officials didn't ask about it, I was thinking if it would also
          be necessary to prohibit circulation of tuk tuks (three-wheeled motorised
          taxis), since they would also be a highly informal service that would pose
          the same threats of motorcyles (same engine, similar lack of safety, etc).
          As I said before, an inmediate reaction to these questions would be a strict
          "no", but since current transport conditions and affordability of a
          transport fare is an issue, I don't think the answer could come out so
          lightly.



          Another option would be to think that simply Bangkok is not ready for a
          car-free day, which I sometimes also feel is the answer. but then again it
          would be backing up too soon. I have also thought that maybe Bangkok could
          start simply by developing car-free Sundays or car-free areas (if not at the
          same time), since the complete closing of roads to all cars seems to give
          heart attacks to all the people whom I have talked to (and most of them work
          in the "nonmotorised" section of the traffic and transportation division).
          Also, giving free rides in public buses is almost completely out of the
          question, unless we looked for funding from an international organisation.
          difficult to get before September 22nd.



          So, what would you do?



          Best regards,



          Carlos F. Pardo

          Project Coordinator

          GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP)

          Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP

          ESCAP UN Building

          Rajadamnern Nok Rd.

          Bangkok 10200, Thailand

          Tel: +66 (0) 2 - 288 2576

          Fax: +66 (0) 2 - 280 6042

          Mobile: +66 (0) 1 - 772 4727

          e-mail: <mailto:carlos.pardo@...> carlos.pardo@...

          Website: <http://www.sutp.org/> www.sutp.org





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Todd Edelman
          Thank you. T ... ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
            Thank you.

            T
            --- Debra Efroymson <anima1205@...> wrote:

            > If I may be allowed to speak again--in all my
            > travels
            > and years living in the developing world, I almost
            > never see anyone in a wheelchair except in
            > hospitals.
            > Forget buildings; the streets and sidewalks are
            > impossible. I would say there's a lot more to do
            > before worrying about elevators, like sidewalks
            > where
            > there are none, or better ones where they are
            > unusable. The disabled also form a group
            > encompassing
            > far more than those in wheelchairs; there are plenty
            > of problems to solve in addition to access to upper
            > floors.
            > Anima
            >
            > --- Todd Edelman <traintowardsthefuture@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > Hi everyone,
            > >
            > > I feel bad that I contributed to pushing the
            > > elevator/lift discussion to the point where people
            > > were yelling, being insulting etc.
            > >
            > > In this whole discussion there seemed to be just
            > ONE
            > > message from the developing world (from Anima
            > > equating
            > > cars with elevators in liftlite Dhaka).
            > >
            > > So, my main question, which I never really asked,
            > is
            > > IF people in developing world in existing and
            > future
            > > four story buildings ARE interested in elevators
            > > more
            > > than "that would be nice but we have other
            > > priorities". Likely the answer is no... but I
            > would
            > > feel better knowing some more opinions from these
            > > regions themselves.
            > >
            > > Todd
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ___________________________________________________________
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC
            > > calling worldwide with voicemail
            > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
            > > Unsubscribe (blank message):
            > > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            > > Group address:
            > > http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________________
            >
            > Yahoo! Sports
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            >
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            >
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            >
            >
            > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >






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          • Dan Korn
            ... Okay, that s a good point, and maybe most of us here are a bunch of elitist Americans and Europeans who forget about how the rest of the world lives. But
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
              On Jul 5, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Todd Edelman wrote:
              > So, my main question, which I never really asked, is
              > IF people in developing world in existing and future
              > four story buildings ARE interested in elevators more
              > than "that would be nice but we have other
              > priorities".

              On Jul 5, 2005, at 7:27 AM, Debra Efroymson wrote:
              > Forget buildings; the streets and sidewalks are
              > impossible. I would say there's a lot more to do
              > before worrying about elevators, like sidewalks where
              > there are none, or better ones where they are
              > unusable. The disabled also form a group encompassing
              > far more than those in wheelchairs; there are plenty
              > of problems to solve in addition to access to upper
              > floors.

              Okay, that's a good point, and maybe most of us here are a bunch of
              elitist Americans and Europeans who forget about how the rest of the
              world lives. But I never pretended to know what was best anywhere
              else; I was merely stating what the benefits of equitable access for
              the disabled in a modern city could be, as well as the other benefits
              of elevators in facilitating multi-modal transportation. And I was
              responding to Debra/Anima's and other's original posts, which did not
              talk about all these other problems, but made a sweeping generalization
              about providing "infrastructure for the lazy," with no apparent regard
              at all for those for whom such infrastructure is vital. So it's not
              just us First-worlders who can have a blind spot.

              I believe that this quote supports my point:

              On Jul 5, 2005, at 7:27 AM, Debra Efroymson wrote:
              > If I may be allowed to speak again--in all my travels
              > and years living in the developing world, I almost
              > never see anyone in a wheelchair except in hospitals.

              Sure, out of sight, out of mind. In many societies, the disabled are
              cut off from society. That doesn't mean they aren't there or don't
              need more facilities. Think about how such a line of reasoning
              compares to planners saying things like, "We don't need more bicycle
              facilities, because there are no bikes riding on this highway." Or,
              "Look at how bad Amtrak service is. It's so bad that nobody is using
              it. Therefore we should get rid of it." It's always easy to confuse
              the cause and effect. For every person who is saying that the disabled
              don't need elevators because the sidewalks are impassible for them,
              there's probably someone else who is saying that there's no point in
              fixing the sidewalks because the disabled don't have anywhere to go
              anyway because buildings are not accessible. Thus the disabled are
              confined to hospitals. (Or maybe because of inferior medical
              treatment, disabled people simply die off.) Again, maybe I'm a First
              World elitist, and being able to provide access to the disabled is
              considered a luxury in other parts of the world, but if we don't even
              think about them, nothing is going to change.

              Also, what is our goal here on this list? Is it to foster incremental
              change in developing countries, or is it to think about how an ideal
              car-free city would work? If it's the former, than Todd and Doug are
              absolutely right, and we're nitpicking too much about details.
              However, if that's the case, I dare say that there are more pressing
              issues in many Third World countries than how to design lovely utopian
              walkable cities. The old "how can you argue about such-and-such while
              millions are dying from [AIDS/war/hunger/etc.]" argument can be wielded
              to shut down almost any discussion or topic.

              If, on the other hand, our goals are bigger and longer-term, and we do
              truly want to design an ideal city of the future, I think we should not
              constrain ourselves with thinking about why things won't work because
              they don't work in today's car-oriented society. In other words, we
              need to dream big, and think outside the box.

              So, are we talking about what could happen or what should happen? How
              do we balance our imagination with reality? Is this list for
              visionaries or not?

              At any rate, I would hope that the realization of a car-free city, no
              matter where it is located, would see equitable access for the disabled
              as a necessity, not a luxury.

              Dan
              Chicago
            • J.H. Crawford
              Hi All, OK, the elevator discussion has now been beat to death. Virtually every possible opinion has already been expressed. I hereby declare the discussion
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
                Hi All,

                OK, the elevator discussion has now been beat to death.
                Virtually every possible opinion has already been expressed.

                I hereby declare the discussion closed.

                As to the purpose of this list, it's to explore the issues
                related to carfree cities and to do whatever we can to
                make them a reality all around the world.

                I happen to think that the only way places like China and
                India can achieve a high quality of life for all their
                people (not just a tiny elite) is to build carfree cities
                by the dozen and to convert existing cities to the carfree
                model. There simply are not enough resources to deal with
                the exploding urban population any other way and still
                improve the quality of life.

                Regards,


                ------ ### -----
                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
              • Simon Baddeley
                Dear Joel I am sure you are right but Wilberforce did not see emancipation nor many suffragettes the rights of women to vote - this vision may not come in our
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 5, 2005
                  Dear Joel

                  I am sure you are right but Wilberforce did not see emancipation nor many
                  suffragettes the rights of women to vote - this vision may not come in our
                  life time.

                  This is no reason not to strive, of course.

                  Best

                  Simon


                  On 5/7/05 16:05, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Hi All,
                  >
                  > OK, the elevator discussion has now been beat to death.
                  > Virtually every possible opinion has already been expressed.
                  >
                  > I hereby declare the discussion closed.
                  >
                  > As to the purpose of this list, it's to explore the issues
                  > related to carfree cities and to do whatever we can to
                  > make them a reality all around the world.
                  >
                  > I happen to think that the only way places like China and
                  > India can achieve a high quality of life for all their
                  > people (not just a tiny elite) is to build carfree cities
                  > by the dozen and to convert existing cities to the carfree
                  > model. There simply are not enough resources to deal with
                  > the exploding urban population any other way and still
                  > improve the quality of life.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  >
                  > ------ ### -----
                  > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                  >
                • Huang Eu Chai
                  Dear Carlos, I suspect that your last option, that Bangkok is simply not ready for a car-free day, would be the most likely. Considering the level of public
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 18, 2005
                    Dear Carlos,
                    I suspect that your last option, that Bangkok is simply not ready for
                    a car-free day, would be the most likely.

                    Considering the level of public transport currently available, the
                    number of addtional commuters coming out of restricting car usage
                    would surely overwhelm the system and cause unimaginable
                    dissatisfaction amongst car users. If the aim of car-free day is to
                    emphasise the advantages of reduced traffic within the city, then the
                    inconvenience caused by an overtaxed public transport sector would
                    undoubtedly lead to the wrong public impression.

                    Singapore once attempted to reduce traffic by reducing car use based
                    on odd and even licence plates numbers on alternate dates, with a fee
                    to be paid for use througout the week. I am no expert on this, but I
                    believe it was moderately sucessful as an interim measure prior to
                    the implementation of road pricing.

                    Was that ever considered (or even implemented) for Bangkok? I know
                    other cities have enforced this (during periods of high pollution for
                    example), with various degrees of success.

                    Regards,
                    Eu Chai
                  • Carlos F. Pardo
                    Eu, Plate restriction is an interesting measure, and the actual Bogotá example has worked better than previous ones in México, Santiago de Chile, etc. These
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 18, 2005
                      Eu,

                      Plate restriction is an interesting measure, and the actual Bogotá example
                      has worked better than previous ones in México, Santiago de Chile, etc.
                      These last two implemented a scheme as the one you describe for Singapore,
                      but the problem was that the solution that citizens found was to buy an
                      additional car with the odd or pair plate that they were "missing". The
                      Bogotá example complicated things a little more, since this time it was not
                      an even-odd scheme but rather a rotating number scheme. Also, Bogotá
                      arranged the restriction for peak hours (not the entire day), and this would
                      not justify buying a second car.

                      In Bangkok, this could be mentioned as well to officials, it actually is a
                      good idea. However, I think solving the public transport supply problem
                      comes first, so people can then stop using their cars.

                      Thanks for your support and attention,

                      Carlos F. Pardo
                      Project Coordinator
                      GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP)
                      Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP
                      ESCAP UN Building
                      Rajadamnern Nok Rd.
                      Bangkok 10200, Thailand
                      Tel: +66 (0) 2 - 288 2576
                      Fax: +66 (0) 2 - 280 6042
                      Mobile: +66 (0) 1 - 772 4727
                      e-mail: carlos.pardo@...
                      Website: www.sutp.org
                      ___________________________________
                      Disclaimer: If you have received an email from an unknown sutp.org account
                      or with a strange attachment, please do not open it. We do not send emails
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                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com [mailto:carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Huang Eu Chai
                      Sent: 18 July, 2005 3:03 PM
                      To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: Car free day in Bangkok- who can ride and who
                      cannot?

                      Dear Carlos,
                      I suspect that your last option, that Bangkok is simply not ready for
                      a car-free day, would be the most likely.

                      Considering the level of public transport currently available, the
                      number of addtional commuters coming out of restricting car usage
                      would surely overwhelm the system and cause unimaginable
                      dissatisfaction amongst car users. If the aim of car-free day is to
                      emphasise the advantages of reduced traffic within the city, then the
                      inconvenience caused by an overtaxed public transport sector would
                      undoubtedly lead to the wrong public impression.

                      Singapore once attempted to reduce traffic by reducing car use based
                      on odd and even licence plates numbers on alternate dates, with a fee
                      to be paid for use througout the week. I am no expert on this, but I
                      believe it was moderately sucessful as an interim measure prior to
                      the implementation of road pricing.

                      Was that ever considered (or even implemented) for Bangkok? I know
                      other cities have enforced this (during periods of high pollution for
                      example), with various degrees of success.

                      Regards,
                      Eu Chai







                      Post messages to: carfree_cities@...
                      Unsubscribe (blank message): carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
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                    • Huang Eu Chai
                      Carlos, actually we still have this scheme in which cars are licensed for use either all day or only during off-peak hours and weekends. The licence plates are
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
                        Carlos,
                        actually we still have this scheme in which cars are licensed for use
                        either all day or only during off-peak hours and weekends. The
                        licence plates are colour-coded to reflect this.

                        However, off-peak cars are not completely barred from use during peak
                        hours. One only need to pay a "licence" for peak-hour use for the
                        day. It's basically "pay when you need to". This options saves a
                        substantial amount of money in terms of taxes.

                        For the full details, you could look at
                        http://www.lta.gov.sg/motoring_matters/motoring_vo_policynschemes_offp
                        eak.htm

                        Anyway, I certainly agree that addressing the public transport issue
                        must come first.

                        Regards,
                        Eu Chai
                        ps. that's my name above, all of it, not just "Eu". :)
                        ____________________________________________________________

                        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Carlos F. Pardo"
                        <cpardo@c...> wrote:
                        > Eu,
                        >
                        > Plate restriction is an interesting measure, and the actual Bogotá
                        example
                        > has worked better than previous ones in México, Santiago de Chile,
                        etc.
                        > These last two implemented a scheme as the one you describe for
                        Singapore,
                        > but the problem was that the solution that citizens found was to
                        buy an
                        > additional car with the odd or pair plate that they were "missing".
                        The
                        > Bogotá example complicated things a little more, since this time it
                        was not
                        > an even-odd scheme but rather a rotating number scheme. Also, Bogotá
                        > arranged the restriction for peak hours (not the entire day), and
                        this would
                        > not justify buying a second car.
                        >
                        > In Bangkok, this could be mentioned as well to officials, it
                        actually is a
                        > good idea. However, I think solving the public transport supply
                        problem
                        > comes first, so people can then stop using their cars.
                        >
                        > Thanks for your support and attention,
                        >
                        > Carlos F. Pardo
                        > Project Coordinator
                        > GTZ Sustainable Urban Transport Project (SUTP)
                        > Room 0942, Transport Division, UN-ESCAP
                        > ESCAP UN Building
                        > Rajadamnern Nok Rd.
                        > Bangkok 10200, Thailand
                        > Tel: +66 (0) 2 - 288 2576
                        > Fax: +66 (0) 2 - 280 6042
                        > Mobile: +66 (0) 1 - 772 4727
                        > e-mail: carlos.pardo@s...
                        > Website: www.sutp.org
                        > ___________________________________
                        >
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