Re: [carfree_cities] McRoma
- Personally, I feel that for the purposes of this list,
so long as the Starbucks is car free, it is fine.
That is not to say that is OK in the grand scheme of
things, but it is not related to car-freedom.
As a friend of mine in Chicago once said with regards
to Critical Mass, "From the perspective of Critical
Mass, I don't care if someone robs a bank and murders
someone, so long as s/he uses a bike as a getaway
This is an extreme example, but it drives home the
point that something might be important, have value as
an issue etc, but it is not the issue of this venue.
- Notwithstanding I wouldn't want my points interpreted as "roll-over" and
accept. There's a responsibility to critique the process we too easily refer
to as "globalisation". The economist Joseph Stiglitz is one of many
mainstream analysts critics who can aid this understanding of what may be
wrong with McRoma and more important what can be changed about nit for the
My point was the difference between change that is regrettable because as we
get older so many of our landmarks alter - sometimes for the worse - and
change which is resistible and deleterious and not simply the focus of
nostalgic regret. Sometimes of course these are the same. I used the tourist
economy of Venice as an example. It is not a living vibrant city of the kind
I'd envisage as exemplary but there are design and building principles
contained in it from which we can learn.
I always carry out my crimes on foot and by bicycle. You know it makes
On 27/6/05 07:26, "Dan Kliman" <dankliman@...> wrote:
> Personally, I feel that for the purposes of this list,
> so long as the Starbucks is car free, it is fine.
> That is not to say that is OK in the grand scheme of
> things, but it is not related to car-freedom.
> As a friend of mine in Chicago once said with regards
> to Critical Mass, "From the perspective of Critical
> Mass, I don't care if someone robs a bank and murders
> someone, so long as s/he uses a bike as a getaway
> This is an extreme example, but it drives home the
> point that something might be important, have value as
> an issue etc, but it is not the issue of this venue.
- Simon remarked:
>All of us when we age will see changes invisible to the younger, who tiresI think this is more important than that. I see some of these
>at our regrets as we of our parents'. Todd's right. We'll indeed have
>Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired global economy. Don't
>waste your time on such regrets.
businesses as a part of the local hearth for community. Mega chains
do not have the health of the community on their radar--it isn't
THEIR community, and they could care less. When these businesses
are operated by people who live in them, the community functions
come almost by themselves.
>Change inevitable and varied. Things will survive and other thingsThe functions of cafes and lunch counters are timeless, at least
>disappear. They cannot be preserved though some times conserved. Cathedrals
>become museums and umbrellas for myriad community projects and big urban
>ceremonies. Fine municipal buildings may become hotels or private offices or
>homes or theatres. These losses will be sad for those old enough to have
>happy memories of their earlier function. We must resign ourselves to a
>pattern of variegated ever shifting processes. The vital thing is the
>principles woven into the pattern.
for as long as we drink tea and coffee and eat lunch. Their social
functions are equally timeless and equally important.
>What we are trying to achieve with the idea of carfree cities is anThe carfree city, as I envision it, is the perfect hearth for
>infrastructure within which the general features who's passing Bowen regrets
>can be initiated, can in some cases continue, and in others survive.
community businesses. I believe that they are placed at a
relative competitive advantage over chains and certainly
hope that this is the case.
>What is it that Bowen regrets losing? He identifies a particular shop orA lot of it has to do with places that are unique to the
>even set of shops or eating places - but what is the higher order of that
>need and desire?
community, that are not the same in Bangor and Bangkok.
>That is what carfree cities (among others) is exploring.Yes, but I do think that it is important to have as an
>That is all we can design - an infrastructure of possibilities that have
>been closed down by our present ignorance of how we ruin our surroundings.
explicit goal the fostering of local businesses and the
placing of big chains in as unfavorable a position as
can reasonably be arranged. Most of this comes by itself--
telling WalMart that they can't have a store out on the
ring road because there isn't going to BE a ring road is
part of this. They can't operate without the ring road,
because they need such an enormous customer base. The smaller
operations, which have been driven out of business in droves
by the international chains, can again compete in an urban
situation where giantism is not supported.
>If we could clearly imagine what we wanted we might be preparing it to beFunny, mine is still there! ;-)
>preserved in aspic. That is my concern about Venice. My Venice disappeared
>300 years ago.
>Joel is capturing the desires realised among this city'sVenetians still very much enjoy their city and clearly
>multitudinous transient visitors. What is that they imagine? How can what is
>imagined be made real? What do these tourists enjoy which is not enjoyed by
>younger Venetians migrating in great numbers to the undistinguished polluted
>cities of Mestre and Marghera?
understand what makes it so different from anywhere else.
The treasure it. They are moving to the mainland in order
to rent their apartments to tourists for enough money that
they ought to be able to live quite comfortably on the
rental income alone. Also, some of the day-to-day practicalities
in Venice are difficult, so they want cars to manage these
tasks. That's because the transport system in Venice is slow
and expensive. It's the one thing about Venice that I would
change if I could.
>Carfree Cities seeks to identify, reinventThat's the next project. Begins with market research.
>and transfer features which are for the time being no more than romantic
>nostalgic fleeting desires off which the lingering population of Venice
>makes a living. How can we get the yearning of tourists into the assumptions
------ ### -----
J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
- For those of you who haven't yet, please read Fast
Food Nation--it does talk about how cars destroy the
landscape, but also how lack of independent businesses
ruins so much else that is important. The trend of
industrialization and everything mass produced is
something we, on our bicycles, in our car-free cities,
should be fighting--isn't it?
> We'll indeed have__________________________________________________
> >Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired
> global economy. Don't
> >waste your time on such regrets.
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
- i think almost everyone here agrees on anything written before:
-cars and urban sprawl destroy
-lifestyles in the rich coutries kill and make obese
-in most cities pollution from cars is too high for a healthy life
now what can we do about it?
how can we change it to the better?
what is the recommended action to be taken by anyone individually?
it would be the logic consequence of those facts to move to a place
that is less dominated by cars and urban sprawl where the air is
clean, public transportation works, unspoiled nature is easily
accessible and where biking is the priority. where is that place?
curious about solutions
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Debra Efroymson
> For those of you who haven't yet, please read Fast
> Food Nation--it does talk about how cars destroy the
> landscape, but also how lack of independent businesses
> ruins so much else that is important. The trend of
> industrialization and everything mass produced is
> something we, on our bicycles, in our car-free cities,
> should be fighting--isn't it?
> > We'll indeed have
> > >Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired
> > global economy. Don't
> > >waste your time on such regrets.
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
- The trouble is that the places outside the cities are being turned into faux
from cities - with the richest creating eco-sanctuaries on distant islands.
Stay in the cities and make change there. These lines were written by an old
man about those who retreat from the city making the rest of the world one
great burb and claiming to save the earth:
'Did they think about the skylarks when they built Mayfair
on the grazings that ran down to the Shepherd¹s Market?
Did they worry about the snipe when they drained the marshes
behind St.James¹s Palace to build Belgravia?
Where did the kite go when they dug the London sewers?
Do the piles they drove down through the beaver¹s dam hold
firm the supermarket in Newbury High Street?
Who cooked the big trout that lay under the village bridge
at Wandsworth? Who feasted on the last salmon that was
netted at Tower Hamlets?
Now they come to put central heating in the ploughman¹s hovel.
They claim the sun that used to bake the hay. And breathe
the breeze in which the pointing dog caught a hundred scents.
They walk out in trainers and T-shirts that say ³Save the
³Stand back!² they say. ³We have a right to walk where we please!²
But we look where they trod before and shudder for what
follows in their footsteps.
I said I must write a warning. But I was angry and - as the
Japanese say - to be angry is only to make yourself ridiculous.
So we will live out our days in the cracks between the
concrete. And then they will pour cement on top of us.'
But look what a blade of grass can do to concrete. Do not dream of escaping
to a new Jerusalem, Build it where we are. "There shall yet old men and old
women dwell in the streets ... and every man with his staff in his hand for
very age. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls
playing in the streets thereof." Zechariah 8
On 3/7/05 20:15, "manfredstrobl" <mstrobl@...> wrote:
> it would be the logic consequence of those facts to move to a place
> that is less dominated by cars and urban sprawl where the air is
> clean, public transportation works, unspoiled nature is easily
> accessible and where biking is the priority. where is that place?
> curious about solutions