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Re: [carfree_cities] McRoma

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  • Dan Kliman
    Personally, I feel that for the purposes of this list, so long as the Starbucks is car free, it is fine. That is not to say that is OK in the grand scheme of
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 26, 2005
      Personally, I feel that for the purposes of this list,
      so long as the Starbucks is car free, it is fine.
      That is not to say that is OK in the grand scheme of
      things, but it is not related to car-freedom.

      As a friend of mine in Chicago once said with regards
      to Critical Mass, "From the perspective of Critical
      Mass, I don't care if someone robs a bank and murders
      someone, so long as s/he uses a bike as a getaway
      vehicle."

      This is an extreme example, but it drives home the
      point that something might be important, have value as
      an issue etc, but it is not the issue of this venue.

      Dan

      http://www.geocities.com/dankliman
      http://www.sorryeverybody.com
    • Simon Baddeley
      Notwithstanding I wouldn t want my points interpreted as roll-over and accept. There s a responsibility to critique the process we too easily refer to as
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 27, 2005
        Notwithstanding I wouldn't want my points interpreted as "roll-over" and
        accept. There's a responsibility to critique the process we too easily refer
        to as "globalisation". The economist Joseph Stiglitz is one of many
        mainstream analysts critics who can aid this understanding of what may be
        wrong with McRoma and more important what can be changed about nit for the
        better.

        http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/bwi-wto/wbank/stigindx.htm

        My point was the difference between change that is regrettable because as we
        get older so many of our landmarks alter - sometimes for the worse - and
        change which is resistible and deleterious and not simply the focus of
        nostalgic regret. Sometimes of course these are the same. I used the tourist
        economy of Venice as an example. It is not a living vibrant city of the kind
        I'd envisage as exemplary but there are design and building principles
        contained in it from which we can learn.

        I always carry out my crimes on foot and by bicycle. You know it makes
        sense.

        S

        On 27/6/05 07:26, "Dan Kliman" <dankliman@...> wrote:

        > Personally, I feel that for the purposes of this list,
        > so long as the Starbucks is car free, it is fine.
        > That is not to say that is OK in the grand scheme of
        > things, but it is not related to car-freedom.
        >
        > As a friend of mine in Chicago once said with regards
        > to Critical Mass, "From the perspective of Critical
        > Mass, I don't care if someone robs a bank and murders
        > someone, so long as s/he uses a bike as a getaway
        > vehicle."
        >
        > This is an extreme example, but it drives home the
        > point that something might be important, have value as
        > an issue etc, but it is not the issue of this venue.
        >
        >
      • J.H. Crawford
        ... I think this is more important than that. I see some of these businesses as a part of the local hearth for community. Mega chains do not have the health of
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 27, 2005
          Simon remarked:

          >All of us when we age will see changes invisible to the younger, who tires
          >at our regrets as we of our parents'. Todd's right. We'll indeed have
          >Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired global economy. Don't
          >waste your time on such regrets.

          I think this is more important than that. I see some of these
          businesses as a part of the local hearth for community. Mega chains
          do not have the health of the community on their radar--it isn't
          THEIR community, and they could care less. When these businesses
          are operated by people who live in them, the community functions
          come almost by themselves.

          >Change inevitable and varied. Things will survive and other things
          >disappear. They cannot be preserved though some times conserved. Cathedrals
          >become museums and umbrellas for myriad community projects and big urban
          >ceremonies. Fine municipal buildings may become hotels or private offices or
          >homes or theatres. These losses will be sad for those old enough to have
          >happy memories of their earlier function. We must resign ourselves to a
          >pattern of variegated ever shifting processes. The vital thing is the
          >principles woven into the pattern.

          The functions of cafes and lunch counters are timeless, at least
          for as long as we drink tea and coffee and eat lunch. Their social
          functions are equally timeless and equally important.

          >What we are trying to achieve with the idea of carfree cities is an
          >infrastructure within which the general features who's passing Bowen regrets
          >can be initiated, can in some cases continue, and in others survive.

          The carfree city, as I envision it, is the perfect hearth for
          community businesses. I believe that they are placed at a
          relative competitive advantage over chains and certainly
          hope that this is the case.

          >What is it that Bowen regrets losing? He identifies a particular shop or
          >even set of shops or eating places - but what is the higher order of that
          >need and desire?

          A lot of it has to do with places that are unique to the
          community, that are not the same in Bangor and Bangkok.

          >That is what carfree cities (among others) is exploring.
          >That is all we can design - an infrastructure of possibilities that have
          >been closed down by our present ignorance of how we ruin our surroundings.

          Yes, but I do think that it is important to have as an
          explicit goal the fostering of local businesses and the
          placing of big chains in as unfavorable a position as
          can reasonably be arranged. Most of this comes by itself--
          telling WalMart that they can't have a store out on the
          ring road because there isn't going to BE a ring road is
          part of this. They can't operate without the ring road,
          because they need such an enormous customer base. The smaller
          operations, which have been driven out of business in droves
          by the international chains, can again compete in an urban
          situation where giantism is not supported.

          >If we could clearly imagine what we wanted we might be preparing it to be
          >preserved in aspic. That is my concern about Venice. My Venice disappeared
          >300 years ago.

          Funny, mine is still there! ;-)

          >Joel is capturing the desires realised among this city's
          >multitudinous transient visitors. What is that they imagine? How can what is
          >imagined be made real? What do these tourists enjoy which is not enjoyed by
          >younger Venetians migrating in great numbers to the undistinguished polluted
          >cities of Mestre and Marghera?

          Venetians still very much enjoy their city and clearly
          understand what makes it so different from anywhere else.
          The treasure it. They are moving to the mainland in order
          to rent their apartments to tourists for enough money that
          they ought to be able to live quite comfortably on the
          rental income alone. Also, some of the day-to-day practicalities
          in Venice are difficult, so they want cars to manage these
          tasks. That's because the transport system in Venice is slow
          and expensive. It's the one thing about Venice that I would
          change if I could.

          >Carfree Cities seeks to identify, reinvent
          >and transfer features which are for the time being no more than romantic
          >nostalgic fleeting desires off which the lingering population of Venice
          >makes a living. How can we get the yearning of tourists into the assumptions
          >of settlers?

          That's the next project. Begins with market research.

          Regards,




          ------ ### -----
          J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
          mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
        • Debra Efroymson
          For those of you who haven t yet, please read Fast Food Nation--it does talk about how cars destroy the landscape, but also how lack of independent businesses
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 3, 2005
            For those of you who haven't yet, please read Fast
            Food Nation--it does talk about how cars destroy the
            landscape, but also how lack of independent businesses
            ruins so much else that is important. The trend of
            industrialization and everything mass produced is
            something we, on our bicycles, in our car-free cities,
            should be fighting--isn't it?
            Anima


            > We'll indeed have
            > >Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired
            > global economy. Don't
            > >waste your time on such regrets.


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          • manfredstrobl
            i think almost everyone here agrees on anything written before: -cars and urban sprawl destroy -lifestyles in the rich coutries kill and make obese -in most
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 3, 2005
              i think almost everyone here agrees on anything written before:
              -cars and urban sprawl destroy
              -lifestyles in the rich coutries kill and make obese
              -in most cities pollution from cars is too high for a healthy life


              now what can we do about it?
              how can we change it to the better?
              what is the recommended action to be taken by anyone individually?

              it would be the logic consequence of those facts to move to a place
              that is less dominated by cars and urban sprawl where the air is
              clean, public transportation works, unspoiled nature is easily
              accessible and where biking is the priority. where is that place?

              curious about solutions
              manfred



              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Debra Efroymson
              <anima1205@y...> wrote:
              > For those of you who haven't yet, please read Fast
              > Food Nation--it does talk about how cars destroy the
              > landscape, but also how lack of independent businesses
              > ruins so much else that is important. The trend of
              > industrialization and everything mass produced is
              > something we, on our bicycles, in our car-free cities,
              > should be fighting--isn't it?
              > Anima
              >
              >
              > > We'll indeed have
              > > >Carfree McDs and Starbucks as a product of a wired
              > > global economy. Don't
              > > >waste your time on such regrets.
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Simon Baddeley
              The trouble is that the places outside the cities are being turned into faux from cities - with the richest creating eco-sanctuaries on distant islands. Stay
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 3, 2005
                The trouble is that the places outside the cities are being turned into faux
                from cities - with the richest creating eco-sanctuaries on distant islands.
                Stay in the cities and make change there. These lines were written by an old
                man about those who retreat from the city making the rest of the world one
                great burb and claiming to save the earth:

                'Did they think about the skylarks when they built Mayfair
                on the grazings that ran down to the Shepherd¹s Market?

                Did they worry about the snipe when they drained the marshes
                behind St.James¹s Palace to build Belgravia?

                Where did the kite go when they dug the London sewers?

                Do the piles they drove down through the beaver¹s dam hold
                firm the supermarket in Newbury High Street?

                Who cooked the big trout that lay under the village bridge
                at Wandsworth? Who feasted on the last salmon that was
                netted at Tower Hamlets?

                Now they come to put central heating in the ploughman¹s hovel.

                They claim the sun that used to bake the hay. And breathe
                the breeze in which the pointing dog caught a hundred scents.

                They walk out in trainers and T-shirts that say ³Save the
                Rain Forest².

                ³Stand back!² they say. ³We have a right to walk where we please!²

                But we look where they trod before and shudder for what
                follows in their footsteps.

                I said I must write a warning. But I was angry and - as the
                Japanese say - to be angry is only to make yourself ridiculous.

                So we will live out our days in the cracks between the
                concrete. And then they will pour cement on top of us.'

                But look what a blade of grass can do to concrete. Do not dream of escaping
                to a new Jerusalem, Build it where we are. "There shall yet old men and old
                women dwell in the streets ... and every man with his staff in his hand for
                very age. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls
                playing in the streets thereof." Zechariah 8

                Simon




                On 3/7/05 20:15, "manfredstrobl" <mstrobl@...> wrote:

                >
                > it would be the logic consequence of those facts to move to a place
                > that is less dominated by cars and urban sprawl where the air is
                > clean, public transportation works, unspoiled nature is easily
                > accessible and where biking is the priority. where is that place?
                >
                > curious about solutions
                > manfred
                >
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