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FW: [Tr2000] Bombardier puts the brakes on N.A. high-speed train plans

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  • Andrew Dawson
    The HSR situation here in North America. Till later, Andrew Dawson
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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      The HSR situation here in North America. Till later, Andrew Dawson

      >Bombardier puts the brakes on N.A. high-speed train plans
      >Unit's president sees little appetite for it here; no projects are
      >under discussion
      >
      >
      >By BERTRAND MAROTTE
      >Globe and Mail
      >Friday, June 3, 2005 Page B1
      >
      >
      >
      >MONTREAL -- Bombardier Inc. has put on ice its once-ambitious
      >plans for high-speed train travel in North America.
      >
      >Andr� Navarri, president of Bombardier Transportation, said in
      >an interview yesterday that there is little appetite for high-speed
      >rail in North America, unlike in Europe and parts of Asia.
      >
      >"For the time being, there is no project which is close to being
      >promoted," he said. Asked about the potential for its once highly
      >touted JetTrain technology in North America, he replied: "As there
      >is no high-speed corridor for the time being, there is no
      >JetTrain."
      >
      >Bombardier Transportation spokeswoman H�l�ne Gagnon said
      >later that Bombardier is no longer in discussions with any
      >government bodies anywhere in North America regarding the
      >funding of high-speed train travel.
      >
      >"There is no project of any kind in Canada or the United States
      >that is the subject of discussions," she said.
      >
      >Bombardier Transportation is the rail unit of the global plane and
      >train maker.
      >
      >Montreal-based Bombardier had for the past several years been
      >running a major campaign to spark interest in its high-speed
      >train technology in the United States and Canada.
      >
      >A high-profile attempt to win approval in Florida for its
      >240-kilometre-an-hour JetTrain failed last November after
      >taxpayers voted it down.
      >
      >And Bombardier, along with French partner Alstom SA, has been
      >plagued by technical and other problems with their Acela
      >Express train operated by Amtrak in the Washington-New
      >York-Boston corridor, the only existing high-speed train in North
      >America.
      >
      >"Is there a market in North America for a very high-speed train?
      >It's a difficult issue," Mr. Navarri said at corporate head office.
      >
      >While high-speed trains have staked out a place in the popular,
      >well-established rail system of Europe, "it's a little more difficult
      >to find the right [rail] corridors in North America," he said.
      >
      >"We are still prepared to discuss the [high-speed] potential in
      >North America, but in North America we will mainly focus on the
      >mass transit market," said Mr. Navarri, a former senior executive
      >at Alstom who was hired last year by Bombardier to lead a
      >sweeping restructuring at Bombardier Transportation.
      >
      >It is difficult to get all the players -- especially governments -- to
      >agree on how best to develop high-speed train travel in North
      >America, he added.
      >
      >"Up to now, it has not been possible to find this agreement, with
      >the exception of Acela."
      >
      >In Canada, Bombardier had high hopes for its JetTrain,
      >particularly in the Quebec City-Windsor, Ont., corridor, and had
      >been lobbying the federal government for financial assistance to
      >upgrade the corridor at a cost of up to $3-billion.
      >
      >"Quebec City-Windsor for the time being is on ice, for financial
      >reasons," Ms. Gagnon said.
      >
      >Other city-to-city links that Bombardier had identified included
      >Calgary-Edmonton, Chicago-St. Louis, Los Angeles-San
      >Francisco and Orlando-Miami.
      >
      >Mr. Navarri said he is not disheartened by an embarrassing
      >series of technical glitches, delivery delays and contractual
      >disputes related to the Acela Express.
      >
      >He said he is confident that the latest snafu -- the Acela was
      >yanked out of service in April after cracks on brake components
      >were discovered -- will be amicably settled and won't degenerate
      >into a legal brawl, as happened four years ago over costly
      >design changes.
      >
      >Meanwhile, Mr. Navarri said he expects strong growth from
      >Eastern European countries as they join the European Union
      >and become eligible for funding to upgrade their aging rail
      >equipment.
      >
      >Bombardier Transportation -- the world's largest manufacturer of
      >rail transportation equipment -- also sees growth from the
      >planned standardization of Europe's patchwork rail signalling
      >system, as well as from the boosting of its services unit to about
      >30 per cent of revenue from 17 per cent today, he said.
      >
      >Outside Europe, China represents a huge potential market for
      >Bombardier, Mr. Navarri said.
      >
      >He also said Bombardier Transportation's restructuring plan --
      >announced last year -- is on track and even ahead of schedule,
      >with a work force reduction of about 15 per cent, to about 30,000
      >from more than 35,000 and the closing of seven facilities in
      >Europe by the end of this year.
      >
      >"All these plans are starting to show good results, especially in
      >terms of profitability," and the rail unit should reach its target of
      >6-per-cent profit margins in the medium term as expected.
      >
      >Six per cent is not the ultimate goal, he added.
      >
      >"After that, we want to go even further."
      >
    • Todd Edelman
      Following this, some possibilities for American HSR, or, rather, HSR in the Americas! (I realise that Mexico has almost no passenger services now and that this
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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        Following this, some possibilities for American HSR,
        or, rather, HSR in the Americas! (I realise that
        Mexico has almost no passenger services now and that
        this line will need to be coordinated with bus
        services in order to serve people in between the
        cities... as there are only two intermdediate stops
        planned....)


        High speed to Guadalajara

        http://www.railwaygazette.com/2005/056-nws2.asp

        PROPOSALS to develop a network of high speed passenger
        railways in Mexico moved forward at the end of April,
        when the Ministry of Communications & Transport
        appointed Systra to assist with drawing up tenders for
        the first route.

        The Mexican government has been developing its
        strategy since 2002, and expects to launch a
        competition in mid-2005 for construction of a 300km/h
        line between Mexico City and Guadalajara. With
        intermediate stations serving Querétaro and Irapuato,
        the route would serve a catchment area with around 28
        million inhabitants. The aim is to cut the journey
        time between the two cities to 2h.

        Systra is being supported by a local firm providing
        legal assistance, and by Sintra SA de CV on technology
        transfer and integration issues. In the second phase
        of the project, Systra will assist the ministry with
        drawing up contracts and concession documents covering
        design, construction and operation of the double-track
        line.


        --- Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...> wrote:

        > The HSR situation here in North America. Till later,
        > Andrew Dawson
        >
        > >Bombardier puts the brakes on N.A. high-speed train
        > plans
        > >Unit's president sees little appetite for it here;
        > no projects are
        > >under discussion
        > >
        > >
        > >By BERTRAND MAROTTE
        > >Globe and Mail
        > >Friday, June 3, 2005 Page B1
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >MONTREAL -- Bombardier Inc. has put on ice its
        > once-ambitious
        > >plans for high-speed train travel in North America.
        > >
        > >André Navarri, president of Bombardier
        > Transportation, said in
        > >an interview yesterday that there is little
        > appetite for high-speed
        > >rail in North America, unlike in Europe and parts
        > of Asia.
        > >
        > >"For the time being, there is no project which is
        > close to being
        > >promoted," he said. Asked about the potential for
        > its once highly
        > >touted JetTrain technology in North America, he
        > replied: "As there
        > >is no high-speed corridor for the time being, there
        > is no
        > >JetTrain."
        > >
        > >Bombardier Transportation spokeswoman Hélène Gagnon
        > said
        > >later that Bombardier is no longer in discussions
        > with any
        > >government bodies anywhere in North America
        > regarding the
        > >funding of high-speed train travel.
        > >
        > >"There is no project of any kind in Canada or the
        > United States
        > >that is the subject of discussions," she said.
        > >
        > >Bombardier Transportation is the rail unit of the
        > global plane and
        > >train maker.
        > >
        > >Montreal-based Bombardier had for the past several
        > years been
        > >running a major campaign to spark interest in its
        > high-speed
        > >train technology in the United States and Canada.
        > >
        > >A high-profile attempt to win approval in Florida
        > for its
        > >240-kilometre-an-hour JetTrain failed last November
        > after
        > >taxpayers voted it down.
        > >
        > >And Bombardier, along with French partner Alstom
        > SA, has been
        > >plagued by technical and other problems with their
        > Acela
        > >Express train operated by Amtrak in the
        > Washington-New
        > >York-Boston corridor, the only existing high-speed
        > train in North
        > >America.
        > >
        > >"Is there a market in North America for a very
        > high-speed train?
        > >It's a difficult issue," Mr. Navarri said at
        > corporate head office.
        > >
        > >While high-speed trains have staked out a place in
        > the popular,
        > >well-established rail system of Europe, "it's a
        > little more difficult
        > >to find the right [rail] corridors in North
        > America," he said.
        > >
        > >"We are still prepared to discuss the [high-speed]
        > potential in
        > >North America, but in North America we will mainly
        > focus on the
        > >mass transit market," said Mr. Navarri, a former
        > senior executive
        > >at Alstom who was hired last year by Bombardier to
        > lead a
        > >sweeping restructuring at Bombardier
        > Transportation.
        > >
        > >It is difficult to get all the players --
        > especially governments -- to
        > >agree on how best to develop high-speed train
        > travel in North
        > >America, he added.
        > >
        > >"Up to now, it has not been possible to find this
        > agreement, with
        > >the exception of Acela."
        > >
        > >In Canada, Bombardier had high hopes for its
        > JetTrain,
        > >particularly in the Quebec City-Windsor, Ont.,
        > corridor, and had
        > >been lobbying the federal government for financial
        > assistance to
        > >upgrade the corridor at a cost of up to $3-billion.
        > >
        > >"Quebec City-Windsor for the time being is on ice,
        > for financial
        > >reasons," Ms. Gagnon said.
        > >
        > >Other city-to-city links that Bombardier had
        > identified included
        > >Calgary-Edmonton, Chicago-St. Louis, Los
        > Angeles-San
        > >Francisco and Orlando-Miami.
        > >
        > >Mr. Navarri said he is not disheartened by an
        > embarrassing
        > >series of technical glitches, delivery delays and
        > contractual
        > >disputes related to the Acela Express.
        > >
        > >He said he is confident that the latest snafu --
        > the Acela was
        > >yanked out of service in April after cracks on
        > brake components
        > >were discovered -- will be amicably settled and
        > won't degenerate
        > >into a legal brawl, as happened four years ago over
        > costly
        > >design changes.
        > >
        > >Meanwhile, Mr. Navarri said he expects strong
        > growth from
        > >Eastern European countries as they join the
        > European Union
        > >and become eligible for funding to upgrade their
        > aging rail
        > >equipment.
        > >
        > >Bombardier Transportation -- the world's largest
        > manufacturer of
        > >rail transportation equipment -- also sees growth
        > from the
        > >planned standardization of Europe's patchwork rail
        > signalling
        > >system, as well as from the boosting of its
        > services unit to about
        > >30 per cent of revenue from 17 per cent today, he
        > said.
        > >
        > >Outside Europe, China represents a huge potential
        > market for
        > >Bombardier, Mr. Navarri said.
        > >
        > >He also said Bombardier Transportation's
        > restructuring plan --
        > >announced last year -- is on track and even ahead
        > of schedule,
        > >with a work force reduction of about 15 per cent,
        > to about 30,000
        > >from more than 35,000 and the closing of seven
        > facilities in
        > >Europe by the end of this year.
        > >
        > >"All these plans are starting to show good results,
        > especially in
        > >terms of profitability," and the rail unit should
        > reach its target of
        > >6-per-cent profit margins in the medium term as
        > expected.
        > >
        > >Six per cent is not the ultimate goal, he added.
        > >
        > >"After that, we want to go even further."
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to:
        > carfree_cities@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > Group address:
        > http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >






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      • Andrew Dawson
        I wouldn t be surprised if the Mexicans would have true high speed rail before the USA or Canada, even the Chinese and the Russians are further ahead than us.
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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          I wouldn't be surprised if the Mexicans would have true high speed rail
          before the USA or Canada, even the Chinese and the Russians are further
          ahead than us. I guess the governments of those of us living north of the
          Mexican boarder are just too lazy and stupid to know any better.

          Till later, Andrew Dawson

          Todd Edelman wrote:
          >Following this, some possibilities for American HSR,
          >or, rather, HSR in the Americas! (I realise that
          >Mexico has almost no passenger services now and that
          >this line will need to be coordinated with bus
          >services in order to serve people in between the
          >cities... as there are only two intermdediate stops
          >planned....)
          >
          >
          >High speed to Guadalajara
          >
          >http://www.railwaygazette.com/2005/056-nws2.asp
          >
          >PROPOSALS to develop a network of high speed passenger
          >railways in Mexico moved forward at the end of April,
          >when the Ministry of Communications & Transport
          >appointed Systra to assist with drawing up tenders for
          >the first route.
          >
          >The Mexican government has been developing its
          >strategy since 2002, and expects to launch a
          >competition in mid-2005 for construction of a 300km/h
          >line between Mexico City and Guadalajara. With
          >intermediate stations serving Quer�taro and Irapuato,
          >the route would serve a catchment area with around 28
          >million inhabitants. The aim is to cut the journey
          >time between the two cities to 2h.
          >
          >Systra is being supported by a local firm providing
          >legal assistance, and by Sintra SA de CV on technology
          >transfer and integration issues. In the second phase
          >of the project, Systra will assist the ministry with
          >drawing up contracts and concession documents covering
          >design, construction and operation of the double-track
          >line.
        • Todd Edelman
          HI, It will be pretty funny if in a few years people from the Western USA fly to D.F or Guadalajara to do high speed rail tourism. Maybe the airlines wont
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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            HI,

            It will be pretty funny if in a few years people from
            the Western USA fly to D.F or Guadalajara to do "high
            speed rail" tourism. Maybe the airlines wont realise
            they are working against themselves ;-)

            Probably many or most of the people who voted against
            Florida HSR never rode a proper train before.

            Russia, yes, but dont forget your regional railways!
            This is where the biggest difference can be made.

            HSR services of a few hundred kms or less tend to
            eliminate air services, but good regional and
            surburban services defeat the car....

            Dont get relaxed about the Russians, however, they
            made the regional DMU at the following link for the
            Hungarians and Czech railways. Get this, folks: It has
            a barrierfree toilet but way to get up those steps:
            http://www.cd.cz/static/old/NEW/TCD2005/5_8motor.htm


            Russia to Join the 300 Club
            Siemens and RZD Build 300 km/h Trains

            Siemens and Russian RZD yesteday (11 April) signed a
            €1,5bn contract for building 60 high-speed trains in
            Russia. The first will be delivered in 2007. They will
            be based on the German ICE3/Velaro train and reach 300
            km/h. They will run on 1524mm track gauge, compared to
            the 1435mm gauge used in most of Europe. See also
            Reuters story in German, FAZ article in German, Ny
            Teknik article in Swedish, and Velaro pages at Siemens
            and Hochgeschwindigkeitszuege.com.

            Moscow - St Petersburg ICE Deal Imminent

            A train trip from Moscow to St Petersburg in 2008 will
            take three hours at 250 km/h. Russian Railways (RZD)
            and Siemens expect to strike a $2bn deal as early as
            April. Sixty trains are to be purchased for $26m each.
            Currently, the fastest train between St. Petersburg
            and Moscow takes four and a half hours. A
            made-in-Russia train, the Sokol, was built at the
            Transmash plant in the Leningrad region and was to
            enter service in 2002, but the project was abandoned.
            • A $16m deal was signed in March between RZD,
            Transmash and Bombardier to produce twelve
            dual-voltage passenger locomotives type EP10 by 2006.
            See also usenet discussion. archive (April 3rd, thanks
            Dave Peilow)

            Todd


            --- Andrew Dawson <m82a1_dawson@...> wrote:

            > I wouldn't be surprised if the Mexicans would have
            > true high speed rail
            > before the USA or Canada, even the Chinese and the
            > Russians are further
            > ahead than us. I guess the governments of those of
            > us living north of the
            > Mexican boarder are just too lazy and stupid to know
            > any better.
            >
            > Till later, Andrew Dawson
            >
            > Todd Edelman wrote:
            > >Following this, some possibilities for American
            > HSR,
            > >or, rather, HSR in the Americas! (I realise that
            > >Mexico has almost no passenger services now and
            > that
            > >this line will need to be coordinated with bus
            > >services in order to serve people in between the
            > >cities... as there are only two intermdediate stops
            > >planned....)
            > >
            > >
            > >High speed to Guadalajara
            > >
            > >http://www.railwaygazette.com/2005/056-nws2.asp
            > >
            > >PROPOSALS to develop a network of high speed
            > passenger
            > >railways in Mexico moved forward at the end of
            > April,
            > >when the Ministry of Communications & Transport
            > >appointed Systra to assist with drawing up tenders
            > for
            > >the first route.
            > >
            > >The Mexican government has been developing its
            > >strategy since 2002, and expects to launch a
            > >competition in mid-2005 for construction of a
            > 300km/h
            > >line between Mexico City and Guadalajara. With
            > >intermediate stations serving Querétaro and
            > Irapuato,
            > >the route would serve a catchment area with around
            > 28
            > >million inhabitants. The aim is to cut the journey
            > >time between the two cities to 2h.
            > >
            > >Systra is being supported by a local firm providing
            > >legal assistance, and by Sintra SA de CV on
            > technology
            > >transfer and integration issues. In the second
            > phase
            > >of the project, Systra will assist the ministry
            > with
            > >drawing up contracts and concession documents
            > covering
            > >design, construction and operation of the
            > double-track
            > >line.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to:
            > carfree_cities@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            > Group address:
            > http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




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          • Doug Salzmann
            ... Wow, the floor of that unit must be four feet above grade. In what decade was it built, and what in the world is crammed underneath? As for the toilet,
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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              On Fri, 3 Jun 2005, Todd Edelman wrote:

              > Dont get relaxed about the Russians, however, they
              > made the regional DMU at the following link for the
              > Hungarians and Czech railways. Get this, folks: It has
              > a barrierfree toilet but way to get up those steps:
              > http://www.cd.cz/static/old/NEW/TCD2005/5_8motor.htm

              Wow, the floor of that unit must be four feet above grade. In what decade
              was it built, and what in the world is crammed underneath?

              As for the toilet, hey, anyone who can climb into that car will find any
              toilet facility ever designed easy to use. The rest of us can look for
              restrooms while we walk or wheel to our destinations.

              -Doug


              ==================
              Doug Salzmann
              P.O. Box 1007
              Larkspur, CA 94977
            • Todd Edelman
              TODD: Dont get relaxed about the Russians, however, they ... DOUG: Wow, the floor of that unit must be four feet above ... TODD: The railcar is built by
              Message 6 of 6 , Jun 3, 2005
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                TODD:
                Dont get relaxed about the Russians, however, they
                > > made the regional DMU at the following link for
                > the
                > > Hungarians and Czech railways. Get this, folks: It
                > has
                > > a barrierfree toilet but way to get up those
                > steps:
                > >
                > http://www.cd.cz/static/old/NEW/TCD2005/5_8motor.htm
                >
                DOUG: Wow, the floor of that unit must be four feet
                above
                > grade. In what decade
                > was it built, and what in the world is crammed
                > underneath?

                TODD: The railcar is built by Metrowagonmas(h) and is
                a modification of a very recent metro car, which
                explains the above rail height. It is a very long
                story, but was sold (at discount?) to MAV (Hungarian
                railways) (and just one I think to Czechs) as part of
                debt repayment from Russian government. But also
                involves some possible corruption or just stupid deals
                with ex director of CD (Czech Railways). The MAV-owned
                trains are also mostly falling apart, with Russian
                crews trying to fix them.

                That article from CD newspaper also mentions that
                traincar has two spaces for wheelchairs, but not why
                this is kind of a non-issue! BUT dont give up hope,
                boys and girls, as the "On the Train" project has a
                subprogramme to promote a rebuilt-with-a-low-floor
                regional train, a GOOD programme of CD, that two car
                DMU (articulated railbus?) that I already mentioned in
                another post and am about to mention again in a new
                one, maybe.

                Todd





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