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moving by shipping container

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  • Christopher Miller
    It seems many of the components are already in existence for putting the kind of freight metro-centered freight transport system proposed in Carfree Cities. We
    Message 1 of 6 , May 26 5:36 PM
      It seems many of the components are already in existence for putting
      the kind of freight metro-centered freight transport system proposed
      in Carfree Cities. We saw a link May 21 to trams being tried out for
      carrying freight containers in Vienna, and just this week I posted a
      link (one of several that can be googled up) to an old freight metro
      system that was actually in service for many years in Chicago at the
      beginning of the 20th century.

      Here's another link to a new company that uses shipping containers
      for moving: they deliver them to customers' houses, and the customers
      have the luxury of packing (and unpacking) them at their leisure.
      When the time for the move comes, a truck picks up the container and
      delivers it to its new destination. If needed, the containers can be
      stored in a specially designed storage warehouse.This system could
      easily be adapted so the containers could be carried locally by
      electric vehicles and by train over long distances.

      The link:

      http://www.pods.com/

      Chris Miller

      Christopher Miller
      Washington DC/Mount Rainier, Maryland
      USA



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew Dawson
      ... These papers might be of interest to you. Till later, Andrew Dawson http://www.bestufs.net/download/articles/The_State_of_the_Art.pdf
      Message 2 of 6 , May 26 9:41 PM
        Christopher Miller wrote:
        >It seems many of the components are already in existence for putting
        >the kind of freight metro-centred freight transport system proposed
        >in Carfree Cities. We saw a link May 21 to trams being tried out for
        >carrying freight containers in Vienna, and just this week I posted a
        >link (one of several that can be googled up) to an old freight metro
        >system that was actually in service for many years in Chicago at the
        >beginning of the 20th century.

        These papers might be of interest to you. Till later, Andrew Dawson
        http://www.bestufs.net/download/articles/The_State_of_the_Art.pdf
        http://www.bestufs.net/download/articles/What_Future_If_Any.pdf
      • mauk_mcamuk
        VERY interesting papers below. One issue that bothers me with using the rail system of the reference design to also carry cargo is the difficulty of getting
        Message 3 of 6 , May 27 2:12 PM
          VERY interesting papers below.

          One issue that bothers me with using the rail system of the reference
          design to also carry cargo is the difficulty of getting regular, high-
          speed passenger service cars past the slower and often-stopped cargo
          cars. Many years ago I worked as a cargo-handler, and getting pallets
          of goods in and out of trailers at a loading dock is not the matter of
          a few seconds work, not if you are doing delivery work.

          What we need is some way to allow the cargo trains to move on and off
          the tracks, quickly and easily.

          I have thought of many schemes using hydrailic lifts or roundabouts at
          every station, but then it hit me. Why not just use trucks?

          The problem is the weight and complexity of the steel bogies you'd
          have to install for the trucks to use the rails.

          Then it hit me: Why do we need the bogies?


          Anybody remember a few years back, when those first Aquatred tires
          came out, with the single huge groove in the middle of the tread? Why
          can't you do the same thing with truck tires, and simply use the
          groove to fit over rail tracks?

          Imagine a flatbed truck, with the electronics added to interface with
          the scheduling system used for the passenger system, that is large
          enough to handle a single cargo container and is equipped with tires
          with deep central grooved tires. While on the tracks, the tires act
          as train wheels, but at each station, the tracks are embedded in a
          concrete floor. The standard steel wheels of the passenger cars don't
          care about the embedding, but the much wider rubber-grooved cargo
          wheels are gently and automatically lifted off the rails as the cargo
          car pulls into each station. Indeed, it would be simple to have a
          small, dedicated cargo terminal next to your passenger station if it
          is deemed wise to seperate people and cargo.

          You then drive the cargo truck a few yards off to one side and pull it
          into a simple raised-platform loading dock, to empty and fill at your
          leisure. Once you're done, you pull it back onto the rails, avoiding
          the passenger cars with your scheduling system, and drive it to the
          next station needing a cargo pickup, or out to the utility areas where
          the container goes onto a standard long-haul train/boat.

          Seems simple and quite doable to me....

          Yes, the rubber tires would wear faster than steel bogeys, but I'd
          wager you could come up with an ultra-hard rubber compound that would
          last way longer than standard truck tires. Even better, since these
          things would not be expected to have to deal with much if any over-the-
          road driving, the tires could be designed as solid rubber, increasing
          load capacity and lifetime while eliminating flats as a concern.


          To address my "intermodal" concerns as well, I could see people who
          desired to flexibility of owning/leasing a car (for long drives or
          simple ego) having their car come to them on a flatbed, they walk to
          the station and get in it, then are carried out to the highways on the
          back of the flatbed, IN their car. Cumbersome? Yes, but it would
          allow a transition method to exist. Over time such silliness would
          likely go the way of pumping your own gas and the like. :)


          What do folks think? Simple, easy to make work, etc?





          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Dawson"
          <m82a1_dawson@h...> wrote:
          > Christopher Miller wrote:
          > >It seems many of the components are already in existence for putting
          > >the kind of freight metro-centred freight transport system proposed
          > >in Carfree Cities. We saw a link May 21 to trams being tried out for
          > >carrying freight containers in Vienna, and just this week I posted a
          > >link (one of several that can be googled up) to an old freight metro
          > >system that was actually in service for many years in Chicago at the
          > >beginning of the 20th century.
          >
          > These papers might be of interest to you. Till later, Andrew Dawson
          > http://www.bestufs.net/download/articles/The_State_of_the_Art.pdf
          > http://www.bestufs.net/download/articles/What_Future_If_Any.pdf
        • J.H. Crawford
          Mauk, please read the chapter Freight Delivery in Carfree Cities before continuing. The arrangement is such that passenger and freight service are separated
          Message 4 of 6 , May 27 3:10 PM
            Mauk, please read the chapter Freight Delivery in Carfree Cities
            before continuing. The arrangement is such that passenger and
            freight service are separated and thus never in conflict.

            I have grave doubts about the feasibility of grooved pneumatic
            tires to run correctly on rails; the pressure loadings are much
            too high, and they will not track correctly at switches.

            Cars are parked in garages at the periphery and accessed by
            metro.





            ------ ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • mauk_mcamuk
            ... Then (as I suggested) use solid rubber tires. These cargo cars are not going to see high speeds or long distances anywhere except on nice smooth rails.
            Message 5 of 6 , May 27 11:52 PM
              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@c...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Mauk, please read the chapter Freight Delivery in Carfree Cities
              > before continuing. The arrangement is such that passenger and
              > freight service are separated and thus never in conflict.
              >
              > I have grave doubts about the feasibility of grooved pneumatic
              > tires to run correctly on rails; the pressure loadings are much
              > too high, and they will not track correctly at switches.
              >

              Then (as I suggested) use solid rubber tires. These cargo cars are
              not going to see high speeds or long distances anywhere except on
              nice smooth rails. :)

              Heck, I was wondering about placing more durable wear material, like
              a steel hoop, in the groove, but then I got to wondering about
              acceleration, and now I have a question for the group.

              As I understand it, the metro system has to accelerate from zero to
              62 mph and back down to zero in roughly 43 seconds as it moves from
              one station to the next in the reference design.

              I was worried that these cargo cars could achieve that kind of
              performance, and was wondering how big an engine would be required,
              when a thought struck me.

              Steel wheels on steel rails are marvelous tech, but the coefficient
              of friction is roughly the same as rubber on ice. Can a passenger
              car using steel on steel accelerate from zero to 62 and brake back
              down to zero in only 43 seconds? If yes, is this an unusually brisk
              ride and can people stay standing up? If no, do we need a different
              way to drive the cars than traditional steel on steel? More
              importantly, does this matter for any but local trains?

              I dug around a little and found this:

              http://www.vlinepassenger.com.au/pdf/2005_Fact_Sheet.pdf

              That trainset powered with a 750 horsepower diesel claims to
              accelerate at .9m/s^2 and brake at essentially the same rate unless
              under emergency braking.

              We need to cross 2500 feet in 43 seconds, which works out to 762
              meters/43 seconds or an average of 17.7 m/sec, slightly under 40
              miles per hour.

              Since we start and end at zero we'll need to peak somewhere well
              above, say at 60+ mph, roughly 27 meters per second. This jives
              almost exactly with the 62 cited above.

              So,we need to accelerate up to 27 meters per second in 21 seconds or
              less, then decelerate at the same rate.

              From here:

              http://library.thinkquest.org/10796/ch3/ch3.htm


              We see that constant acceleration is pretty simple stuff, and at an
              acceleration of .9m/sec^2 we will be moving at 18.9 meters per second
              after 21 seconds. This is well short of the 27+ m/sec needed.

              Indeed, to reach 27 meters per second maximum speed, which we have to
              achieve to make our travel numbers work for a local train, we'd need
              to accelerate at almost 1.3 m/sec^2, which is harder than that
              traincar can decelerate under emergency braking!

              Is this a problem, or have I messed up somewhere? :(



              > Cars are parked in garages at the periphery and accessed by
              > metro.
              >

              That'd work too! :D I also like the notion of electric scooters like
              a Segway as cargo deliverers. Imagine a simple flat platorm on a
              couple of wheels you stack boxes on, then drive by simply walking
              beside it and push it in the direction you want it to go.

              Heck, you could tie a string to it and lead it around like a dog on a
              leash! :D



              >
              >
              >
            • J.H. Crawford
              Mauk, once again, please read the book before making long posts about physics. The questions you have posed are answered in the book. Your library can get it
              Message 6 of 6 , May 28 1:03 AM
                Mauk, once again, please read the book before making long
                posts about physics. The questions you have posed are
                answered in the book. Your library can get it for you.

                The assumed acceleration is a little less than that of a PCC
                streetcar of 70 years ago. Rubber on ice has a FAR lower
                coefficient of friction compared to steel on steel.

                I'm getting tired of spending time on things I handled more
                than five years ago in considerable detail and with
                careful thought.





                >--- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@c...>
                >wrote:
                >>
                >> Mauk, please read the chapter Freight Delivery in Carfree Cities
                >> before continuing. The arrangement is such that passenger and
                >> freight service are separated and thus never in conflict.
                >>
                >> I have grave doubts about the feasibility of grooved pneumatic
                >> tires to run correctly on rails; the pressure loadings are much
                >> too high, and they will not track correctly at switches.
                >>
                >
                >Then (as I suggested) use solid rubber tires. These cargo cars are
                >not going to see high speeds or long distances anywhere except on
                >nice smooth rails. :)
                >
                >Heck, I was wondering about placing more durable wear material, like
                >a steel hoop, in the groove, but then I got to wondering about
                >acceleration, and now I have a question for the group.
                >
                >As I understand it, the metro system has to accelerate from zero to
                >62 mph and back down to zero in roughly 43 seconds as it moves from
                >one station to the next in the reference design.
                >
                >I was worried that these cargo cars could achieve that kind of
                >performance, and was wondering how big an engine would be required,
                >when a thought struck me.
                >
                >Steel wheels on steel rails are marvelous tech, but the coefficient
                >of friction is roughly the same as rubber on ice. Can a passenger
                >car using steel on steel accelerate from zero to 62 and brake back
                >down to zero in only 43 seconds? If yes, is this an unusually brisk
                >ride and can people stay standing up? If no, do we need a different
                >way to drive the cars than traditional steel on steel? More
                >importantly, does this matter for any but local trains?
                >
                >I dug around a little and found this:
                >
                >http://www.vlinepassenger.com.au/pdf/2005_Fact_Sheet.pdf
                >
                >That trainset powered with a 750 horsepower diesel claims to
                >accelerate at .9m/s^2 and brake at essentially the same rate unless
                >under emergency braking.
                >
                >We need to cross 2500 feet in 43 seconds, which works out to 762
                >meters/43 seconds or an average of 17.7 m/sec, slightly under 40
                >miles per hour.
                >
                >Since we start and end at zero we'll need to peak somewhere well
                >above, say at 60+ mph, roughly 27 meters per second. This jives
                >almost exactly with the 62 cited above.
                >
                >So,we need to accelerate up to 27 meters per second in 21 seconds or
                >less, then decelerate at the same rate.
                >
                >From here:
                >
                >http://library.thinkquest.org/10796/ch3/ch3.htm
                >
                >
                >We see that constant acceleration is pretty simple stuff, and at an
                >acceleration of .9m/sec^2 we will be moving at 18.9 meters per second
                >after 21 seconds. This is well short of the 27+ m/sec needed.
                >
                >Indeed, to reach 27 meters per second maximum speed, which we have to
                >achieve to make our travel numbers work for a local train, we'd need
                >to accelerate at almost 1.3 m/sec^2, which is harder than that
                >traincar can decelerate under emergency braking!
                >
                >Is this a problem, or have I messed up somewhere? :(
                >
                >
                >
                >> Cars are parked in garages at the periphery and accessed by
                >> metro.
                >>
                >
                >That'd work too! :D I also like the notion of electric scooters like
                >a Segway as cargo deliverers. Imagine a simple flat platorm on a
                >couple of wheels you stack boxes on, then drive by simply walking
                >beside it and push it in the direction you want it to go.
                >
                >Heck, you could tie a string to it and lead it around like a dog on a
                >leash! :D
                >
                >
                >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                ------ ### -----
                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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