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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: 20mph/30kph minimum (was: free? parking)

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  • Todd Edelman
    In a follow-up to my earlier message, my wife (the driver in the house) informed me that 20mph is about the slowest she can drive for extended periods. Does
    Message 1 of 6 , May 4, 2005
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      In a follow-up to my earlier message, my wife (the
      driver in the
      house) informed me that 20mph is about the slowest she
      can drive for
      extended periods. Does anyone else have anecdotal
      evidence to support
      that? I know it's the wrong list to ask, but perhaps
      there are a few
      recovered drivers out there. ;)

      Cheers,
      ~chris

      Todd: 20mph or 30kph (30km) is the standard MAX.
      operating speed for a growing number of built up areas
      in European towns.

      Here is some info if you are new to this:

      "Tempo 30" campaign from VCD in Germany (in German,
      use Babelfish or other translator):
      www.vcd.org
      click on "kampagnen" at top,
      click on "Mehr Tempo 30" down the page...

      VCD is the alternative mobility assoc. in Germany to
      ADAC and includes trains, bikes, even walking as part
      of full hearty German offering of mobility.
      +

      "Cycling: The way ahead" at
      http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/cycling/cycling_en.pdf


      see pages 35 to 36 starting with "Combining safety
      measures" and including very excellent graphs which
      you should convert into mph as necessary for your own
      purposes! No permission necessary, just polite mention
      of source.

      --

      I once did a 30kph test with a friend in Prague in my
      neighborhood. On level streets where speed limit is
      normally 50kph 30 seemed slow (darn!) but problem was
      going up a long hill, where car "didnt like" going
      30kph due to transmission ratios - it was revving too
      high for 2nd gear... but 3rd would be a problem too.
      This is for a manual transmission of course, which
      almost all European cars have as standard.

      I dont understand the problem with anything under
      20/30 being a problem on level surfaces and automatic
      transmissions. Probably American or all automobile
      engineers dont really think anyone wants to go that
      slow except in the parking lot, drive thru, or
      automatic car wash, so they optimise throttle for
      higher speeds.?

      I just thought of a idea related to this, but to find
      out more you are gonna have to contact me OFF-LIST.
      Hint: Cruise control.

      Todd, World Recovered Drivers Net(foot)work




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    • Stefan Langeveld
      Chris, your wife made a crucial point. For all nowadays cars, 30 km/h is darn slow. So, even in those 30 km/h zones , 85% of cars go above that limit (research
      Message 2 of 6 , May 5, 2005
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        Chris,
        your wife made a crucial point. For all nowadays cars, 30 km/h is
        darn slow. So, even in those 30 km/h zones , 85% of cars go above
        that
        limit (research by road safety NGO), in spite of speed humps; they
        slow a car 'during' 15 meters or so.
        Cities will implement such zones (getting grants for this purpose),
        but will not evaluate effects.
        Converting to Tempo 30 streets, with or without signs, humps,
        campaign is clearly not enough.
        30 is an appropiate speed in built up areas, but even without
        touching the accelerator, cars will go faster.
        There are these remedies
        1. ISA
        2. Lane narrowing and/or meandering.
        3. NEVs (& various cycles of course), for inner city trips. In
        those, 30 km/h is a proper speed.
        Still not sure which is best. Both cost a lot (in time-to-achieve and
        money, although one can achieve a lot with (2:) strategic placement
        of blocks or cones that make a lane 2.0 m wide, before crossroads and
        highspeed stretches).


        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Todd Edelman
        <traintowardsthefuture@y...> wrote:
        > In a follow-up to my earlier message, my wife (the
        > driver in the
        > house) informed me that 20mph is about the slowest she
        > can drive for
        > extended periods. Does anyone else have anecdotal
        > evidence to support
        > that? I know it's the wrong list to ask, but perhaps
        > there are a few
        > recovered drivers out there. ;)
        >
        > Cheers,
        > ~chris
        >
        > Todd: 20mph or 30kph (30km) is the standard MAX.
        > operating speed for a growing number of built up areas
        > in European towns.
        >
        > Here is some info if you are new to this:
        >
        > "Tempo 30" campaign from VCD in Germany (in German,
        > use Babelfish or other translator):
        > www.vcd.org
        > click on "kampagnen" at top,
        > click on "Mehr Tempo 30" down the page...
        >
        > VCD is the alternative mobility assoc. in Germany to
        > ADAC and includes trains, bikes, even walking as part
        > of full hearty German offering of mobility.
        > +
        >
        > "Cycling: The way ahead" at
        > http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/cycling/cycling_en.pdf
        >
        >
        > see pages 35 to 36 starting with "Combining safety
        > measures" and including very excellent graphs which
        > you should convert into mph as necessary for your own
        > purposes! No permission necessary, just polite mention
        > of source.
        >
        > --
        >
        > I once did a 30kph test with a friend in Prague in my
        > neighborhood. On level streets where speed limit is
        > normally 50kph 30 seemed slow (darn!) but problem was
        > going up a long hill, where car "didnt like" going
        > 30kph due to transmission ratios - it was revving too
        > high for 2nd gear... but 3rd would be a problem too.
        > This is for a manual transmission of course, which
        > almost all European cars have as standard.
        >
        > I dont understand the problem with anything under
        > 20/30 being a problem on level surfaces and automatic
        > transmissions. Probably American or all automobile
        > engineers dont really think anyone wants to go that
        > slow except in the parking lot, drive thru, or
        > automatic car wash, so they optimise throttle for
        > higher speeds.?
        >
        > I just thought of a idea related to this, but to find
        > out more you are gonna have to contact me OFF-LIST.
        > Hint: Cruise control.
        >
        > Todd, World Recovered Drivers Net(foot)work
      • Todd Edelman
        Stefan and Chris and all, I didnt mean to imply that you could do Tempo 30 without traffic calming devices like the ones you mention including: ISA and
        Message 3 of 6 , May 5, 2005
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          Stefan and Chris and all,

          I didnt mean to imply that you could do Tempo 30
          without traffic calming devices like the ones you
          mention including:

          ISA and NEVs.... Chris?

          Help us out, brother, what do those stand for?

          T,
          T,
          WCN




          --- Stefan Langeveld <blw@...> wrote:
          > Chris,
          > your wife made a crucial point. For all nowadays
          > cars, 30 km/h is
          > darn slow. So, even in those 30 km/h zones , 85% of
          > cars go above
          > that
          > limit (research by road safety NGO), in spite of
          > speed humps; they
          > slow a car 'during' 15 meters or so.
          > Cities will implement such zones (getting grants for
          > this purpose),
          > but will not evaluate effects.
          > Converting to Tempo 30 streets, with or without
          > signs, humps,
          > campaign is clearly not enough.
          > 30 is an appropiate speed in built up areas, but
          > even without
          > touching the accelerator, cars will go faster.
          > There are these remedies
          > 1. ISA
          > 2. Lane narrowing and/or meandering.
          > 3. NEVs (& various cycles of course), for inner
          > city trips. In
          > those, 30 km/h is a proper speed.
          > Still not sure which is best. Both cost a lot (in
          > time-to-achieve and
          > money, although one can achieve a lot with (2:)
          > strategic placement
          > of blocks or cones that make a lane 2.0 m wide,
          > before crossroads and
          > highspeed stretches).
          >
          >
          > --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Todd Edelman
          > <traintowardsthefuture@y...> wrote:
          > > In a follow-up to my earlier message, my wife (the
          > > driver in the
          > > house) informed me that 20mph is about the slowest
          > she
          > > can drive for
          > > extended periods. Does anyone else have anecdotal
          > > evidence to support
          > > that? I know it's the wrong list to ask, but
          > perhaps
          > > there are a few
          > > recovered drivers out there. ;)
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > > ~chris
          > >
          > > Todd: 20mph or 30kph (30km) is the standard MAX.
          > > operating speed for a growing number of built up
          > areas
          > > in European towns.
          > >
          > > Here is some info if you are new to this:
          > >
          > > "Tempo 30" campaign from VCD in Germany (in
          > German,
          > > use Babelfish or other translator):
          > > www.vcd.org
          > > click on "kampagnen" at top,
          > > click on "Mehr Tempo 30" down the page...
          > >
          > > VCD is the alternative mobility assoc. in Germany
          > to
          > > ADAC and includes trains, bikes, even walking as
          > part
          > > of full hearty German offering of mobility.
          > > +
          > >
          > > "Cycling: The way ahead" at
          > >
          >
          http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/cycling/cycling_en.pdf
          > >
          > >
          > > see pages 35 to 36 starting with "Combining safety
          > > measures" and including very excellent graphs
          > which
          > > you should convert into mph as necessary for your
          > own
          > > purposes! No permission necessary, just polite
          > mention
          > > of source.
          > >
          > > --
          > >
          > > I once did a 30kph test with a friend in Prague in
          > my
          > > neighborhood. On level streets where speed limit
          > is
          > > normally 50kph 30 seemed slow (darn!) but problem
          > was
          > > going up a long hill, where car "didnt like" going
          > > 30kph due to transmission ratios - it was revving
          > too
          > > high for 2nd gear... but 3rd would be a problem
          > too.
          > > This is for a manual transmission of course, which
          > > almost all European cars have as standard.
          > >
          > > I dont understand the problem with anything under
          > > 20/30 being a problem on level surfaces and
          > automatic
          > > transmissions. Probably American or all automobile
          > > engineers dont really think anyone wants to go
          > that
          > > slow except in the parking lot, drive thru, or
          > > automatic car wash, so they optimise throttle for
          > > higher speeds.?
          > >
          > > I just thought of a idea related to this, but to
          > find
          > > out more you are gonna have to contact me
          > OFF-LIST.
          > > Hint: Cruise control.
          > >
          > > Todd, World Recovered Drivers Net(foot)work
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to:
          > carfree_cities@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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          > Group address:
          > http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



          ___________________________________________________________
          How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
          snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
        • Stefan Langeveld
          ISA = intelligent speed adaptation: in-car devices that limit speed. NEV = neighbourhooud electric vehicles : http://www.gemtown.com
          Message 4 of 6 , May 5, 2005
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            ISA = intelligent speed adaptation: in-car devices that limit speed.
            NEV = neighbourhooud electric vehicles : http://www.gemtown.com


            > ISA and NEVs.... Chris?
            >
            > Help us out, brother, what do those stand for?
          • Doug Salzmann
            ... I believe NEV is Neighborhood Electric Vehicle. ISA is Intelligent Speed Adaptation, and refers to schemes to electronically limit or govern the speeds
            Message 5 of 6 , May 5, 2005
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              On Thu, 5 May 2005, Todd Edelman wrote:

              > Stefan and Chris and all,
              >
              > I didnt mean to imply that you could do Tempo 30
              > without traffic calming devices like the ones you
              > mention including:
              >
              > ISA and NEVs.... Chris?

              I believe NEV is "Neighborhood Electric Vehicle."

              ISA is "Intelligent Speed Adaptation," and refers to schemes to
              electronically limit or govern the speeds of vehicles in specific areas,
              roadways, etc.


              -Doug


              --
              "There must be some way out of here,"
              said the joker to the thief.
              "There's too much confusion,
              I can't get no relief."

              -Bob Dylan, "All Along the Watchtower"


              =================
              Doug Salzmann
              Kalliergo
              P.O. Box 1007
              Larkspur, CA
              94977-1007 USA

              www.kalliergo.net
            • Simon Baddeley
              Is this a first? UK radio based in London - The Bike Show broadcast on Resonance 104 FM on Mondays 1.30 -2pm BST - Email - bikeshow@gmail.com
              Message 6 of 6 , May 7, 2005
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                Is this a first? UK radio based in London - "The Bike Show" broadcast on
                Resonance 104 FM on Mondays 1.30 -2pm BST - Email - bikeshow@...

                http://www.unstablesound.net/bike.html

                3 January 2005 Christmas Day ride over the South Downs in Sussex, with
                cycling film-maker Nicky Hamlyn. Followed by hot bath.

                10 January 2005 Kraftwerk special, looking at the connection between
                pioneering German electronic band and cycling. Featuring Maisie Hitchcock
                and Chris Bloor

                17 January 2005 Guest David Ferry, photo-montage artist and serious road
                biker. Talking about escaping seaside town drudgery by cycling into the
                hills.

                Simon
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