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Re: [carfree_cities] Logistics in the carfree city

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  • Simon Baddeley
    I have a few points and questions concerning Mr. Crawford s carfree city design: I really like the list of practical and detailed questions that appeared in
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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      I have a few points and questions concerning Mr. Crawford's carfree
      city design:


      I really like the list of practical and detailed questions that appeared in
      the letter from mdh6214@...

      I would like to have well prepared answers to such practicalities, even if
      it was to recognise the problem and indicate the class of issues that need
      to be addressed about a number of detailed services that currently seem to
      make a car or van essential. If these are dealt with in Joel's book my
      apologies. I await a copy.

      It has occurred to me that if I accepted walking beside my bike as I wheeled
      it I could attach some kind of weight carrying bracket to it. Such a device
      ought to be freely available - at least by mail order. Perhaps it is. The
      challenge then is that something that in a car you might move some where in
      an hour make take you a day with the bike (and so on) - so the issue
      revolves around attitudes to time. We seem to have forgotten what amazing
      discoveries the lever and the wheel were.

      As for the storage currently available on trains for luggage and other heavy
      items including the vehicles you might use to carry such times - the need
      for "bums on seats" in modern trains has driven out large amounts of storage
      space of this kind.

      Simon
    • Richard Risemberg
      ... Bicycle trailers are of course a solution. I ve previously referred to the company in Iowa whose riders pull loads of up to 1,000 lbs
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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        At 6/19/00 16:53:00, you wrote:
        >It has occurred to me that if I accepted walking beside my bike as I wheeled
        >it I could attach some kind of weight carrying bracket to it. Such a device
        >ought to be freely available - at least by mail order. Perhaps it is. The
        >challenge then is that something that in a car you might move some where in
        >an hour make take you a day with the bike (and so on) - so the issue
        >revolves around attitudes to time. We seem to have forgotten what amazing
        >discoveries the lever and the wheel were.
        Bicycle trailers are of course a solution. I've previously referred to the company in Iowa whose riders pull loads of up to 1,000 lbs (http://www.living-room.org/bikepeople/delivery.htm). If someone popularized a
        standardized mount, trailers could be available for rental in shoping areas, or let out free with a deposit, say.

        Richard

        --
        Richard Risemberg
        editor@...
        Living Room Urban Ecology Web Magazine
        http://living-room.org
      • Simon Baddeley
        ... wheeled ... device ... in ... company in Iowa whose riders pull loads of up to 1,000 lbs (http://www.living-room.org/bikepeople/delivery.htm). If someone
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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          >At 6/19/00 16:53:00, you wrote:
          >>It has occurred to me that if I accepted walking beside my bike as I
          wheeled
          >>it I could attach some kind of weight carrying bracket to it. Such a
          device
          >>ought to be freely available - at least by mail order. Perhaps it is. The
          >>challenge then is that something that in a car you might move some where
          in
          >>an hour make take you a day with the bike (and so on) - so the issue
          >>revolves around attitudes to time. We seem to have forgotten what amazing
          >>discoveries the lever and the wheel were.
          >Bicycle trailers are of course a solution. I've previously referred to the
          company in Iowa whose riders pull loads of up to 1,000 lbs
          (http://www.living-room.org/bikepeople/delivery.htm). If someone
          popularized a
          >standardized mount, trailers could be available for rental in shoping
          areas, or let out free with a deposit, say.>>Richard>Richard Risemberg
          >>Living Room Urban Ecology Web Magazine
          >http://living-room.org
          >
          >Richard

          I have followed the ideas on trailers but I was spurred to the thought by
          the posting on how early on we are in our thinking about some of these
          practicalities for being carfree.

          We think of trailers - perhaps - because we know that's what you put behind
          a car or a horse (or a human). It makes sense. We've been doing this sort of
          thing for centuries. Might there not be some other inventions working off
          just two wheels as on a bike poor something like it that we haven't thought
          of - partly because of our attitudes to time. Trailers if they are to be
          safe and reliable are expensive.

          Might be there's some incredibly simple idea for adapting your basic bicycle
          to carry large loads? I've seen photos of people in "undeveloped" (what's a
          more accurate word for what I'm trying to say?)countries carrying what seem
          massive loads on bikes. This may be as much to do with the human skills
          involved (as with balancing a water bottle and other items on the head for
          long walks) as the technology.

          The other point is that house moving and such large scale weighty object
          transport might be easier if done the way the Amish raise a barn (I'm sure
          there are many other examples given that such activities in smaller
          societies were entirely normal). But I've been well socialised out of such
          large scale mutual assistance though I'm aware that there were and are
          communities that could not function without then.

          We need a major disaster to kick-start such mutuality and then we look back
          on such experiences within intense nostalgia. Think of how older people in
          the UK (and I'm sure in USA) recall the home front in WW2.

          In our road there are neighbours doing each other favours and keeping an eye
          on the old. I've been chair of the residents association for about 4 years.
          But I haven't conceived of trying to organise help on the sort of scale one
          would need to move house, though a few of us have assisted clear someone's
          garden, some of us sweep drives when it snows. Anything larger and people
          would just think you were eccentric and say "why not do it by car or truck?"
          or hire a firm to do it for you. Self-help looks like you can't afford that
          and even that you are taking a job away from someone who needs it.

          I could imagine carrying out a non-car non-truck house move for charity as a
          special event with media coverage. Having done it once such a project might
          just institute it as something more habitual. But while the car and truck
          are around it looks odd not to use them. Individual walking, cycling and
          even public transport are different in that they already frequently are more
          efficient and rewarding than using the car and don't entail collective
          endeavour.

          Simon
        • Richard Risemberg
          ... There are various delivery bike designs that can carry immensely heavy loads well. Most involve small front wheels, such as on this Pashley:
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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            At 6/19/00 18:13:00, you wrote:
            >
            >Might be there's some incredibly simple idea for adapting your basic bicycle
            >to carry large loads? I've seen photos of people in "undeveloped" (what's a
            >more accurate word for what I'm trying to say?)countries carrying what seem
            >massive loads on bikes. This may be as much to do with the human skills
            >involved (as with balancing a water bottle and other items on the head for
            >long walks) as the technology.
            There are various delivery bike designs that can carry immensely heavy loads well. Most involve small front wheels, such as on this Pashley:
            http://www.pashley.co.uk/pashley/images/products/delibike_lrg.gif. There are numerous other designs.

            Saturday I was in Santa Barbara with my girlfiend, and we took a two-trailer bicycle taxi to return to our hotel from the pier. It was hooked up to an ordinary cheap mountain bike but still got us there faster than
            the electric bus we'd taken in the other direction. About the same pace as the traffic was moving, in fact. The trailers were plastered with ads to increase income.

            Richard


            --
            Richard Risemberg
            editor@...
            Living Room Urban Ecology Web Magazine
            http://living-room.org
          • EXPORTATION QUEBEC
            ... A few years ago, I ve seen young people moving through the metro. They were carrying boxes, mirrors, curtains, chairs,... by hands with a handful of
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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              > In our road there are neighbours doing each other favours and
              > keeping an eye
              > on the old. I've been chair of the residents association for
              > about 4 years.
              > But I haven't conceived of trying to organise help on the
              > sort of scale one
              > would need to move house, though a few of us have assisted
              > clear someone's
              > garden, some of us sweep drives when it snows. Anything
              > larger and people
              > would just think you were eccentric and say "why not do it by
              > car or truck?"
              > or hire a firm to do it for you. Self-help looks like you
              > can't afford that
              > and even that you are taking a job away from someone who needs it.
              >
              A few years ago, I've seen young people moving through the metro. They
              were carrying boxes, mirrors, curtains, chairs,... by hands with a handful
              of friends. It should be a good experience to live since you slowly empty
              your former house to fill in your new one with your goods. I find it
              rewarding to look at the items you carried yourself or with other people
              without the use of a car. I took a heavy XT case by hands from University
              through metro and train to my suburban house, and XTs are heavy! I borrowed
              a Pentium from my work, and I'll be glad to bring it back by hands (I'll
              tell them it's cool and you make good arms.)

              You can take several days to move this way with many rides back and forth,
              but you get good time chatting with friends and doing physical work you'll
              be proud of and you will remember with your friends.

              > I could imagine carrying out a non-car non-truck house move
              > for charity as a
              > special event with media coverage. Having done it once such a
              > project might
              > just institute it as something more habitual. But while the
              > car and truck
              > are around it looks odd not to use them. Individual walking,
              > cycling and
              > even public transport are different in that they already
              > frequently are more
              > efficient and rewarding than using the car and don't entail collective
              > endeavour.
              >
              True, see above.

              Louis-Luc
              > Simon
              >
            • Todd J. Binkley
              Greetings Matt, welcome to the group and thanks for the interesting ... Cases for heavy instruments and other pieces of equipment could be fitted with wheels
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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                Greetings Matt, welcome to the group and thanks for the interesting
                post. You wrote:

                >One advantage cars give us is that we can walk to the parking garage,
                >put stuff in the trunk, and return to shopping--also something useful
                >if a student has a heavy instrument or piece of equipment they need for

                >one class.

                Cases for heavy instruments and other pieces of equipment could be
                fitted with wheels and pull-up handles as with suitcases.

                >I would propose that shopping centers--or possibly the locality--
                >install airport-style lockers near the metro stations and shopping
                >centers, along with centers at which you can rent a shopping cart or
                >equivalent to take your large shopping trip home at the end. For the
                >elderly, disabled, or heavy items, they could rent an electric-powered
                >shopping cart, like is used in malls today by the elderly and disabled.

                Excellent idea; for spontaneous purchases, and those don't own or may
                have forgotten to bring their own cart.
                I would imagine that nearly every resident in a carfree city would own a
                cart (or two or three) for transporting various loads short distances (a
                few blocks). A small collapsible for carrying to the market, then
                wheeling home.... a heavier-duty hand-truck/dolly/cart for more massive
                loads. Affordable electric-powered versions of the latter might become
                available as the market for them expands. A pedestrian-pulled cart
                which could also be easily attached to a bicycle would be a nice
                all-'round device. Secured, ground-level storage space for all these
                carts and bikes should be provided in or very near every residence, as
                well as provisions for stashing them near shops. Perhaps a cordoned-off
                outdoor area (or a section of a large indoor plaza) could serve as a
                place to check a cart or bike much as one checks a coat or hat at a fine
                restaurant or theatre. This would minimize the expense of constructing
                storage space and would easily expand and contract with demand. It
                would also make a nice small business for someone, and involve less
                hassle than bothering with locks and lockers. Temporary storage areas
                like this are routinely setup at stops on mass bike ride events.

                Cheers,

                -T.J.
              • EXPORTATION QUEBEC
                ... Yes. Just like owning 2 umbrellas, every citizen would ideally own 2 carts, say 1 at work and 1 at home. Thus he could decide spontaneously to buy a heavy
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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                  > Excellent idea; for spontaneous purchases, and those don't own or may
                  > have forgotten to bring their own cart.
                  > I would imagine that nearly every resident in a carfree city
                  > would own a
                  > cart (or two or three) for transporting various loads short
                  Yes. Just like owning 2 umbrellas, every citizen would ideally own 2 carts,
                  say 1 at work and 1 at home. Thus he could decide spontaneously to buy a
                  heavy item while working, after work time grab his cart to carry his
                  purchase home, and bring the cart back next day... The one at home is used
                  for local purchases on weekends, etc...

                  Other devices are the traditional 4-wheeled hand trailer that can be used to
                  stroll children, and a more robust version can be intended to pull pieces of
                  furniture or heavy apparatus (replacing the need of pick-up truck). I'm sure
                  that given the choice, children prefer looking and breathing in a nice city
                  while being pulled at a walking speed than being enclosed in one of those
                  minivans hearing and smelling nothing and seeing landscape way too fast.
                  Access ramps are built for wheelchairs anyways, so they can be used with
                  other human wheeled devices.

                  Louis-Luc
                • mdh6214@garnet.fsu.edu
                  That brings up another very good point: access ramps aren t *just* for wheelchairs. The metro stations could have access ramps leading into them that are very
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 19, 2000
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                    That brings up another very good point: access ramps aren't *just* for
                    wheelchairs. The metro stations could have access ramps leading into
                    them that are very wide. This would mean that electric driven golf-
                    style carts, flatbed trucks, etc. would not have to compete with
                    wheelchairs, pedestrians, cyclists (walking their bikes, of course),
                    strollers, and non-electric carts for space. Mr. Crawford has shown how
                    the metro could have separate "in" and "out" areas, so the opposite-
                    direction problem is gone: everyone is going either up or down. My
                    university's football stadium has huge ramps to get to the upper level;
                    they drive a mini-ambulance to the upper level in the event of an
                    emergency. Similar concept.

                    Here's another interesting logistical problem: the elderly and hot or
                    cold weather. Here in Tallahassee, we frequently break 104F (40C) in
                    the sun. A recent TV advisory warned the elderly to stay in air
                    conditioning. How would this be done? Obviously, the metro trains can
                    be air-conditioned (the platforms could be air-conditioned as well, but
                    this would require massive amounts of electric power unless there were
                    doors wide enough for a flatbed truck to pass through).

                    My father recently drove a very elderly and sick woman home from
                    church. He pulled the car right up to the church entryway, and she was
                    assisted in walking from the air-conditioned church into the air-
                    conditioned car, then helped into her air-conditioned house.

                    How would this be handled in the carfree city? Even a few minutes'
                    walking (or even manuvering an electric wheelchair or cart) in the hot
                    sun can be taxing on some very elderly people. My only possible thought
                    would be air-conditioned golf carts with car-style doors with sliding
                    windows--such a system would probably suck the cart batteries like
                    crazy.

                    Additionally, the injured would need these golf carts or equivalent.
                    People who need the carts due to age or disability can be issued
                    disabled permits; the districts could have disabled cart-sized spaces
                    right next to key shady locations and building entrances (similar to
                    our auto-centric system in use now). A wide area next to the space
                    would be necessary to allow someone to swing their crutches out of the
                    cart. A temporarily disabled (injured) person could rent a cart, or use
                    one they already have.

                    Such a system would need heavy enforcement to prevent every Tom, Dick,
                    and Harry from abusing it. Here in Tallahassee, the fine for parking in
                    or blocking a disabled space is $250 (ouch!) plus applicable towing
                    fees. Since non-disabled people will also probably have golf carts,
                    outside of disabled parking and (heavy or large) material loading and
                    unloading, there should be very little, if any, general cart-parking
                    spaces to discourage general around-town use when not necessary--
                    perhaps only one space right next to their house, so they have a place
                    to put it, should they decide to own one.

                    Businisses will be more likely to have carts and trucks than
                    individuals, since they would use them more hours-per-day. Hourly cart/
                    truck rental sounds like an excellent business idea.

                    > Access ramps are built for wheelchairs anyways, so they can be used with
                    > other human wheeled devices.
                    >
                    > Louis-Luc
                  • Neil Gall
                    ... Okay, this isn t a city but you remind me of somewhere... There is a tiny village in the North-East of Scotland called Crovie (pronounced Crivvy). The 60
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 20, 2000
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                      Todd:
                      > I would imagine that nearly every resident in a carfree city
                      > would own a cart (or two or three) for transporting various
                      > loads short distances

                      Okay, this isn't a city but you remind me of somewhere...

                      There is a tiny village in the North-East of Scotland called
                      Crovie (pronounced Crivvy). The 60 or so houses circle a small
                      bay at the bottom of a cliff in a long string. There is only
                      enough space between the houses and the beach for a winding
                      path. The one road which leads to Crovie winds down the hill
                      and stops at one end of the village. There is space for a few
                      cars there, but most must be parked further up the hill. In
                      order to get things along to your house - the farthest ones
                      must be 1/4 or 1/3 of a mile away - each house owns a cart,
                      which is parked in a special area near the bottom of the road.

                      At one time it would have been a fishing village, and most
                      of the homes are holiday cottages now, but the one aspect of
                      everyday life that seems to have remained is pulling your
                      things along the car-free path in big wooden carts. When I
                      first saw it, I just wished life in the city could be the
                      same...

                      http://www.clarebenn.freeserve.co.uk/cottage1.htm
                      http://www.images-of-britain.freeserve.co.uk/sc/sc00023.htm

                      Cheers,
                      Neil
                    • Henning Mortensen
                      Well, I should likely finish reading all these posts before replying, but if someone else has already said what I am about to say, I think it bears repeating.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 20, 2000
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                        Well, I should likely finish reading all these posts before replying, but if
                        someone else has already said what I am about to say, I think it bears
                        repeating.

                        We are getting concerned with a number of things here which in a true
                        "car-free" city are either a non-issue or much easier. Moving large freight
                        for example can be done with a small wagon IF distances are not far. I don't
                        know exactly what a car-free city would look like, but every day as I walk
                        around our city I look at the streets and think to myself, wow, look at all
                        that space that can be reclaimed. When I was younger I remember my parents
                        moving from one appartment to the other. Because the distance was not far
                        (about 5 blocks) a wagon was borrowed and we walked the stuff up the hill to
                        our new apartment. Had the city been car-free we would have been looking at
                        a block or two. I admit that pushing and pulling the wagon was a bit
                        difficult and I would like to submit that it was difficult since being
                        designed for a car or tractor to pull it was actually larger then it needed
                        to be.

                        Sure we will need some engine driven vehicles, think of bulldozers, but if
                        this kind of vehicle are given the lowest priority on the road and have to
                        yield to all other traffic, I don't think that the few such vehicles will be
                        much of a nuisance. Come to think of it, if laws were passed which
                        effectively said that slower traffic always has the right of way
                        (pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars, etc) that would certainly result
                        in traffic chaos and while it would get us lynched, it would effect a
                        slowing of traffic, and a state of gridlock which would encourage people to
                        just walk.

                        I blame this group for the fact that more and more I am resenting the idea
                        that cars get the streets and pedestrians get the sidewalk, why should a ped
                        have to go to the corner and wait for a light to cross the street, do they
                        not have as much right to the road as other tax payers.
                        Now don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that we all jay-walk, but there
                        is a certain "taking back the streets" sentiment in there somewhere.

                        Henning
                        "Rampant in Regina"
                        Regina, Sk, Canada
                        >
                        >I could imagine carrying out a non-car non-truck house move for charity as
                        >a
                        >special event with media coverage. Having done it once such a project might
                        >just institute it as something more habitual. But while the car and truck
                        >are around it looks odd not to use them. Individual walking, cycling and
                        >even public transport are different in that they already frequently are
                        >more
                        >efficient and rewarding than using the car and don't entail collective
                        >endeavour.
                        >
                        >Simon

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                      • Henning Mortensen
                        ... In Denmark, when I have visited, one neat thing that I have noted is the variety of bicycles used for just these tasks. The most common is the bike built
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 20, 2000
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                          > >
                          > >Might be there's some incredibly simple idea for adapting your basic
                          >bicycle
                          > >to carry large loads? I've seen photos of people in "undeveloped" (what's
                          >a
                          > >more accurate word for what I'm trying to say?)countries carrying what
                          >seem
                          > >massive loads on bikes.


                          In Denmark, when I have visited, one neat thing that I have noted is the
                          variety of bicycles used for just these tasks. The most common is the bike
                          built as a delivery vehicle for groceries. These bikes are built to carry a
                          case of beer in bottles. They have a low platform in front of the rider but
                          behind the front wheel. These bikes seem to work quite well for carrying
                          medium loads.

                          I wish I had a picture I could point you all to. May I suggest that we try
                          to create a page on a site (carfree.com?) for novelle frieght carrying
                          solutions. This would include dollies, wheelbarrows, special purpose bikes,
                          wagons, etc.

                          The next time I am in Denmark I will try to collect pictures of some of the
                          assorted bikes I see.

                          Henning
                          Regina, Sk, Canada
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                        • Henning Mortensen
                          ... http://www.tedwhitegreenlight.com/AboutTed.htm others from Jym: http://www.efn.org/~cat/hpm.html http://www.bikesatwork.com/ http://www.encycleopedia.com/
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 20, 2000
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                            >=v= Some existing web pages come to mind. There's a great photo
                            >of filmmaker Ted White and Katie Shults kissing on a cargo bike
                            >much like the one you've described:
                            >
                            http://www.tedwhitegreenlight.com/AboutTed.htm

                            others from Jym:

                            http://www.efn.org/~cat/hpm.html
                            http://www.bikesatwork.com/
                            http://www.encycleopedia.com/
                            >
                            > <_Jym_>
                            >
                            >
                            Yes that is pretty much what I was thinking of. And thanks for the links,
                            they sure show you how versatile a bike can be. It sure doesn't seem like
                            much of a stretch to carry a washer or dryer home on one of those. At least
                            not for a fit person. It seems like the big thing we need to get around here
                            is this self-reliance which the car culture has toughted as being a benefit
                            of the car. Perhaps not everyone would want to bike home with a fridge on
                            board, but hey, hire someone to deliver it for you. My grandparents have
                            been car-free for the last thirty years. If they can carry it on their bike
                            they do, otherwise they get it delivered. They are fortunate that the small
                            harbour town they live in doesn't have many cars. Why it has any is beyond
                            me.

                            Henning

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                          • Doug Salzmann
                            ... We all accept the blame -- gleefully. -Doug
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 20, 2000
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                              Henning wrote:
                              > I blame this group for the fact that more and more I am resenting the idea
                              > that cars get the streets and pedestrians get the sidewalk

                              We all accept the blame -- gleefully.


                              -Doug
                            • tim
                              ... I agree and firmly believe this is the way forward (pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars, etc) as I said before, as though its all a crossing place I
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 21, 2000
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                                >Sure we will need some engine driven vehicles, think of bulldozers, but if
                                >this kind of vehicle are given the lowest priority on the road and have to
                                >yield to all other traffic, I don't think that the few such vehicles will be
                                >much of a nuisance. Come to think of it, if laws were passed which
                                >effectively said that slower traffic always has the right of way
                                >(pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars, etc) that would certainly result
                                >in traffic chaos and while it would get us lynched, it would effect a
                                >slowing of traffic, and a state of gridlock which would encourage people to
                                >just walk.

                                I agree and firmly believe this is the way forward
                                (pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars, etc)
                                as I said before, as though its all a crossing place

                                I was dealing with some dangerous drivers
                                while out walking with the kids
                                and considering how I drive (yes I do)
                                I always give way politely to pedestrians
                                at all times and anywhere
                                its not too hard to do

                                We should begin with lots and lots more crossings
                                here in UK they are black and white
                                all traffic gives way to pedestrians
                                no cars can park near them
                                They should be a lot wider where neccessary
                                sometimes the whole street
                                Why not ?

                                another way to introduce car bans in residential streets
                                is to show people how it increases the value of thier property
                                the other benefits can then show themselves in time

                                many of the technical logistical problems mentioned are easily sorted
                                air conditioning has been designed for and by wasteful society
                                there are natural aternatives,
                                I suffer from heat, carry a white umberella in the sun
                                evaporation cools surfaces
                                I love the old fridges that are porus stone
                                keep them damp and they are cool

                                so much can be done by designers
                                if they only worked for good

                                ............tim
                              • Todd J. Binkley
                                , Thanks for the great links! These work bikes will definitely be popular in a carfree city. -T.J. ... bike, which is a similar design, only with an
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 23, 2000
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                                  <_Jym_>,

                                  Thanks for the great links! These work bikes will definitely be popular
                                  in a carfree city.

                                  -T.J.

                                  >http://www.efn.org/~cat/hpm.html

                                  >There you'll see a good picture of the "Long Haul" style of
                                  bike, which is a similar design, only with an enclosed
                                  compartment.

                                  =v= Bikes At Work has some incredible trailers:

                                  >http://www.bikesatwork.com/

                                  =v= The web pages aren't nearly as complete as the printed
                                  version, but _Encycleopedia_ has always showcased cargo bikes
                                  and bikes of every description:

                                  >http://www.encycleopedia.com/
                                • tim
                                  ... can we have some very special removable curbs so that cables and pipes dont require digging everytime ........tim
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 29, 2000
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                                    >If there are no cars, then do you want any curbs? Venice has none.

                                    can we have some very special removable curbs
                                    so that cables and pipes dont require digging everytime


                                    ........tim
                                  • Ronald Dawson
                                    ... In other words some form of modular construction? Dawson
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 29, 2000
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                                      Tim wrote:
                                      >>If there are no cars, then do you want any curbs? Venice has none.
                                      >Can we have some very special removable curbs
                                      >so that cables and pipes dont require digging everytime.

                                      In other words some form of modular construction? Dawson
                                    • J.H. Crawford
                                      ... I hope so. These can be see in Europe and Asia--there are channels in the street with removable precast concrete tops. Along the central boulevard I
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 2 2:23 AM
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                                        >>If there are no cars, then do you want any curbs? Venice has none.
                                        >
                                        >can we have some very special removable curbs
                                        >so that cables and pipes dont require digging everytime

                                        I hope so. These can be see in Europe and Asia--there are
                                        channels in the street with removable precast concrete
                                        tops. Along the central boulevard I foresee a large utility
                                        chase, perhaps integrated with the metro construction and
                                        lying just beneath it. These kinds of tunnels have been
                                        commonplace installations in universities for many years.
                                        Saves a lot of digging and keeps everything out of the way.


                                        ###

                                        On sebbatical until September. Please expect slow responses to e-mail.

                                        J.H. Crawford _Carfree Cities_ ISBN 9057270374
                                        postmaster@... http://www.carfree.com
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                                      • Martha Torell
                                        Along the central boulevard I foresee a large utility ... Not to mention fiberoptic communications cables. Vive le broadband! Martha
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 2 9:34 AM
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                                          Along the central boulevard I foresee a large utility
                                          > chase, perhaps integrated with the metro construction and
                                          > lying just beneath it. These kinds of tunnels have been
                                          > commonplace installations in universities for many years.
                                          > Saves a lot of digging and keeps everything out of the way.

                                          Not to mention fiberoptic communications cables. Vive le broadband!

                                          Martha
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