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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Base tunnels and high speed trains

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  • J.H. Crawford
    Ed Beale said, ... I believe I read somewhere that the double-decker TGVs in use on the Paris-Lyon run are actually consuming no more energy per unit distance
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 11, 2005
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      Ed Beale said,

      >Actually your suspicion of base tunnels, high speed trains etc is
      >correct. They are certainly not ecologically sound. It takes more
      >energy per mile to travel at a higher speed. I don't have exact
      >figures but I believe TGV/Eurostar use about twice as much energy per
      >mile as normal-speed trains.

      I believe I read somewhere that the double-decker TGVs in use on
      the Paris-Lyon run are actually consuming no more energy per
      unit distance than conventional trains. This is because the TGV
      is very streamlined and built of lightweight materials.

      Regards,



      -- ### --

      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • J.H. Crawford
      ... But, Doug, that will only keep them busy for a week! ;-) -- ### -- J.H. Crawford
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 11, 2005
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        >Indeed. Better yet, we need a "No Travel" movement. Start by sending all
        >of the planners to the blackboard to write, "Access, not transportation,"
        >ten thousand times each.

        But, Doug, that will only keep them busy for a week! ;-)


        -- ### --

        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • CEB
        Well, I also heard that since high-speed train occupancy is relatively high it makes it efficient when you are looking at amount of energy and Co2 produced per
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 11, 2005
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          Well, I also heard that since high-speed train occupancy is relatively high it makes it efficient when you are looking at amount of energy and Co2 produced per passenger kilometre... and I also heard that at least new line The TGV Ost something or other , the one that goes through a Natura 2000 area in eastern France, is really unjustifiable on cost grounds...... as with light rail and other systems it is really case specific.

          I do know that high speed rail services have eliminated some air services in France... and that now that the rail and air sectors are partners in getting people to Charles de Gaulle airport etc by high speed rail from Brussels, etc.

          Todd

          subliminal ads for PRT below? Just ignore 'em....

          ______________________________________________________________
          > Od: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
          > Komu: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          > Datum: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:34:30 +0000
          > Předmět: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Base tunnels and high speed trains
          >
          >
          >
          > Ed Beale said,
          >
          > >Actually your suspicion of base tunnels, high speed trains etc is
          > >correct. They are certainly not ecologically sound. It takes more
          > >energy per mile to travel at a higher speed. I don't have exact
          > >figures but I believe TGV/Eurostar use about twice as much energy per
          > >mile as normal-speed trains.
          >
          > I believe I read somewhere that the double-decker TGVs in use on
          > the Paris-Lyon run are actually consuming no more energy per
          > unit distance than conventional trains. This is because the TGV
          > is very streamlined and built of lightweight materials.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          >
          >
          > -- ### --
          >
          > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
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        • emccaughrin
          ... I think you are remembering wrong. The double-decker duplex TGV has a weight comparable to the older single-level TGV trains. As a result, the duplex has
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 11, 2005
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            --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford"
            <mailbox@c...> wrote:
            >
            > I believe I read somewhere that the double-decker TGVs in use on
            > the Paris-Lyon run are actually consuming no more energy per
            > unit distance than conventional trains.

            I think you are remembering wrong. The double-decker "duplex" TGV
            has a weight comparable to the older single-level TGV trains. As a
            result, the duplex has better efficiency compared to the older Sud-
            Est trainsets. Severe capacity problems on the line necessitated the
            development of the Duplex -- the line was maxed out, longer
            trainsets were not feasible, so they went with the double-decker
            design. Because of the strict 17-ton axle load limit, extruded
            aluminum carbodies were used on the duplex.

            However, compared to a conventional train, the difference in energy
            use is considerable. Except in a vacuum, it is a physical
            impossibility for a 186 mph train to have less drag than a
            comparably sized 79mph or even 125 mph train.
          • J.H. Crawford
            ... No, this is not a fact. Conventional trains are very poorly streamlined, whereas it was an explicit goal with the TGV. There may still be greater
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 12, 2005
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              >However, compared to a conventional train, the difference in energy
              >use is considerable. Except in a vacuum, it is a physical
              >impossibility for a 186 mph train to have less drag than a
              >comparably sized 79mph or even 125 mph train.

              No, this is not a fact. Conventional trains are very poorly
              streamlined, whereas it was an explicit goal with the TGV.
              There may still be greater aerodynamic drag with the TGV,
              but it's possible that total energy consumption is the same
              per seat-mile, due to the lighter weights. Also, the frontal
              area of the duplexes is quite low compared to the number of
              seats, and this is a highly influential factor.

              I'd prefer not to continue this discussion until somebody
              actually locates the facts, however.

              Regards,


              -- ### --

              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
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