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RE: [carfree_cities] RE: Visualize Car-Free Illichville.

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  • Andrew Dawson
    ... The Express business in other words. http://www.dcnrhs.org/railway_express_agency.htm ... You re correct about the SIRT. I wasn t clear earlier and PE
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 16, 2004
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      Ken Avidor wrote:
      >I like the map, though I have a question Mr.Avidor is the "Railink" a
      >commuter rail like type system or some thing else? If it is I guess it
      >would
      >be possible to haul freight on the line with a connection to the outside
      >world in a SIRT/PE way perhaps.
      >
      >Sorry for the nit picking, Andrew Dawson
      >------------
      >Nit picking is welcome!
      >
      >Roberta says the rail link would be an electric line, mainly for trolleys
      >but also
      >for light freight such as packages, mail and goods unavailable in
      >Illichville.

      The "Express" business in other words.
      http://www.dcnrhs.org/railway_express_agency.htm

      >Is SIRT the Staten Island Rapid Transit?

      You're correct about the SIRT. I wasn't clear earlier and PE being Pacific
      Electric, was that these extensive transit operations were subsidiaries of
      railroads. SIRT was part of the Baltimore & Ohio, PE was part of Southern
      Pacific and also handled freight trains.

      San Diego or even San Pedro are good examples, trolleys during the day,
      freight trains at night. Although it's possible to run both at the same
      time.

      http://www.transit-rider.com/ca.sandiego/sdtrolley.cfm?id=south2
      http://www.transit-rider.com/viewer.cfm?FrameID=286
      http://www.transit-rider.com/viewer.cfm?FrameID=221
      http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?15203
      http://www.railwaypreservation.com/page8.html

      Lines or in this case rail lines can blurr and that's okay. Andrew Dawson

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    • J.H. Crawford
      ... The Federal Railroad Administration will not allow mixed light-rail and freight operation unless the two are fully separated either in distance or in time.
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 17, 2004
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        >You're correct about the SIRT. I wasn't clear earlier and PE being Pacific
        >Electric, was that these extensive transit operations were subsidiaries of
        >railroads. SIRT was part of the Baltimore & Ohio, PE was part of Southern
        >Pacific and also handled freight trains.
        >
        >San Diego or even San Pedro are good examples, trolleys during the day,
        >freight trains at night. Although it's possible to run both at the same
        >time.

        The Federal Railroad Administration will not allow mixed light-rail
        and freight operation unless the two are fully separated either
        in distance or in time. It may be that SIRT and PE were heavy-rail
        vehicles, but this is an unnecessary complication for what is in
        practice a light-rail type of operation.

        (The difference between heavy rail and light rail is mainly in
        the collision resistance of the vehicles, with heavy-rail vehicles
        built to fare reasonably well in collisions with other heavy-rail
        equipment.)

        Germany has been experimenting with some mixed operations. Clearly,
        there is a risk involved, but if the operation is well thought out,
        it ought to be acceptable.

        Regards,


        -- ### --

        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • Richard Risemberg
        ... I have little faith that it would work well in the Land of the Cheap and the Home of the Knave...we have a cult of operational sloppiness here in the US,
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 17, 2004
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          J.H. Crawford wrote:
          > (The difference between heavy rail and light rail is mainly in
          > the collision resistance of the vehicles, with heavy-rail vehicles
          > built to fare reasonably well in collisions with other heavy-rail
          > equipment.)
          >
          > Germany has been experimenting with some mixed operations. Clearly,
          > there is a risk involved, but if the operation is well thought out,
          > it ought to be acceptable.
          I have little faith that it would work well in the Land of the Cheap and
          the Home of the Knave...we have a cult of operational sloppiness here in
          the US, and of sloughing off on maintenance and staff to increase
          shareholder profits. The "rugged individual" myth translates in reality
          into an I'll-get-mine-fuck-you attitude, and so I'd rather *not* be
          sharing my trolley tracks with 6,000 horsepower GE line engines pulling
          10,000 tons of Toyotas across the country.

          Germany and Japan have cults of operational precision and try to do the
          job right even if it might cut profits...even Japan runs its freight at
          night when there are few passenger trains about, and bullet trains have
          dedicated ROW. We're slowly heading towards a bullet-train system ehre
          in California, but I sure as hell hope Tutor-Saliba doesn't get the
          job...as the subway they overcharged us on requires almost continuous
          track maintenance...they probably stand a good chance though.

          Sorry for the gloom, it's been a really bad two weeks.

          Richard
          --
          Richard Risemberg
          http://www.living-room.org
          http://www.newcolonist.com

          "I like liberals. They gave us the five-day workweek; ended child labor;
          invented unemployment insurance, Social Security and Medicare; and led
          us, despite fierce opposition from 'America First' pseudo-patriots on
          the political right, to victory over fascism in World War II. Liberals
          also ended racial segregation and gave women the vote."

          Robert Scheer
        • Andrew Dawson
          ... Valid point, in North America corparate/political leaders are often not very acountable even to shareholders and not to mention voters.
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 17, 2004
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            Richard Risemberg wrote:
            > > (The difference between heavy rail and light rail is mainly in
            > > the collision resistance of the vehicles, with heavy-rail vehicles
            > > built to fare reasonably well in collisions with other heavy-rail
            > > equipment.)
            > >
            > > Germany has been experimenting with some mixed operations. Clearly,
            > > there is a risk involved, but if the operation is well thought out,
            > > it ought to be acceptable.
            >I have little faith that it would work well in the Land of the Cheap and
            >the Home of the Knave...we have a cult of operational sloppiness here in
            >the US, and of sloughing off on maintenance and staff to increase
            >shareholder profits.

            Valid point, in North America corparate/political leaders are often not very
            acountable even to shareholders and not to mention voters.
            http://www.dot.gov/DOTagencies.htm

            >The "rugged individual" myth translates in reality
            >into an I'll-get-mine-fuck-you attitude, and so I'd rather *not* be
            >sharing my trolley tracks with 6,000 horsepower GE line engines pulling
            >10,000 tons of Toyotas across the country.

            I've been in the cab many times and I can't say I have ever seen that kind
            of attitude amongst engineers or motormen. I've seen this "up yours"
            mentality on highways though.

            Till later, Andrew Dawson

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          • Richard Risemberg
            ... Sorry, didn t mean to imply that engine-drivers were that way--I meant that a studied lack of maintenance could result in a collision, which would be most
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 17, 2004
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              Andrew Dawson wrote:
              > Richard Risemberg wrote:

              >
              >>The "rugged individual" myth translates in reality
              >>into an I'll-get-mine-fuck-you attitude, and so I'd rather *not* be
              >>sharing my trolley tracks with 6,000 horsepower GE line engines pulling
              >>10,000 tons of Toyotas across the country.
              >
              >
              > I've been in the cab many times and I can't say I have ever seen that kind
              > of attitude amongst engineers or motormen. I've seen this "up yours"
              > mentality on highways though.
              Sorry, didn't mean to imply that engine-drivers were that way--I meant
              that a studied lack of maintenance could result in a collision, which
              would be most unfortunate for the occupants of the lighter vehicle.

              Sloppy track maintenance seems to be to blame for most RR wrecks--there
              was one just today in LA, and I saw one with my own eyes a few years
              ago, fortunately a minor accident. And there was the train that someone
              sent down the long grade west of Summit with an incorrect weight listing
              on the manifest, resulting in a horrible 90mph derailment that destroyed
              several houses....

              My apologies to the hand on the throttle!

              Richard
              --
              Richard Risemberg
              http://www.living-room.org
              http://www.newcolonist.com

              "I like liberals. They gave us the five-day workweek; ended child labor;
              invented unemployment insurance, Social Security and Medicare; and led
              us, despite fierce opposition from 'America First' pseudo-patriots on
              the political right, to victory over fascism in World War II. Liberals
              also ended racial segregation and gave women the vote."

              Robert Scheer
            • CEB
              What would be source of juice (electricity) for train? In relation to the On the train Towards the Future! project under development, I am investigating the
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                What would be source of juice (electricity) for train? In relation to the "On the train Towards the Future!" project under development, I am investigating the negatives of rail-guided mobility. One of them is that in relation to future high-speed rail network in the Czech Republic, a planner of some sort said that this network would be dependent on excess electric supply and he was talking about our controversial Temelin nuclear power plant working as planned...

                Todd

                ______________________________________________________________
                > Od: "Andrew Dawson" <m82a1_dawson@...>
                > Komu: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                > Datum: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 03:16:01 +0000
                > Předmět: RE: [carfree_cities] RE: Visualize Car-Free Illichville.
                >
                >
                > Ken Avidor wrote:
                > >I like the map, though I have a question Mr.Avidor is the "Railink" a
                > >commuter rail like type system or some thing else? If it is I guess it
                > >would
                > >be possible to haul freight on the line with a connection to the outside
                > >world in a SIRT/PE way perhaps.
                > >
                > >Sorry for the nit picking, Andrew Dawson
                > >------------
                > >Nit picking is welcome!
                > >
                > >Roberta says the rail link would be an electric line, mainly for trolleys
                > >but also
                > >for light freight such as packages, mail and goods unavailable in
                > >Illichville.
                >
                > The "Express" business in other words.
                > http://www.dcnrhs.org/railway_express_agency.htm
                >
                > >Is SIRT the Staten Island Rapid Transit?
                >
                > You're correct about the SIRT. I wasn't clear earlier and PE being Pacific
                > Electric, was that these extensive transit operations were subsidiaries of
                > railroads. SIRT was part of the Baltimore & Ohio, PE was part of Southern
                > Pacific and also handled freight trains.
                >
                > San Diego or even San Pedro are good examples, trolleys during the day,
                > freight trains at night. Although it's possible to run both at the same
                > time.
                >
                > http://www.transit-rider.com/ca.sandiego/sdtrolley.cfm?id=south2
                > http://www.transit-rider.com/viewer.cfm?FrameID=286
                > http://www.transit-rider.com/viewer.cfm?FrameID=221
                > http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?15203
                > http://www.railwaypreservation.com/page8.html
                >
                > Lines or in this case rail lines can blurr and that's okay. Andrew Dawson
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
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              • J.H. Crawford
                ... Any energy source can be used to power trains, one way or another. Since they are the most efficient mechanically propelled vehicles, you come out ahead.
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                  Todd said:

                  >What would be source of juice (electricity) for train? In relation to the
                  >"On the train Towards the Future!" project under development, I am
                  >investigating the negatives of rail-guided mobility. One of them is that in
                  >relation to future high-speed rail network in the Czech Republic, a planner
                  >of some sort said that this network would be dependent on excess electric
                  >supply and he was talking about our controversial Temelin nuclear power
                  >plant working as planned...

                  Any energy source can be used to power trains, one way or another.
                  Since they are the most efficient mechanically propelled vehicles,
                  you come out ahead. It doesn't matter if it's wind, solar, geothermal,
                  used fryer oil, or nukes, you get the most for your energy by putting
                  it into a train.

                  Regards,


                  -- ### --

                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                • CEB
                  YES!!!! Of course, I meant what would be the source in Illichville? Interestingly, as you may know Germany plans to close all of its nuclear plants in 2020 or
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                    YES!!!! Of course, I meant what would be the source in Illichville?

                    Interestingly, as you may know Germany plans to close all of its nuclear plants in 2020 or so, or a little later? I am wondering what their source will be for all the electric trains they plan. Not sure if wind energy will do it. People cynically say that they will just import it from France or Czech.

                    I have asked someone at Friends of the Earth in Germany to explain.

                    Todd
                    ______________________________________________________________
                    > Od: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                    > Komu: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                    > Datum: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:03:53 +0000
                    > Předmět: RE: [carfree_cities] RE: Visualize Car-Free Illichville.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Todd said:
                    >
                    > >What would be source of juice (electricity) for train? In relation to the
                    > >"On the train Towards the Future!" project under development, I am
                    > >investigating the negatives of rail-guided mobility. One of them is that in
                    > >relation to future high-speed rail network in the Czech Republic, a planner
                    > >of some sort said that this network would be dependent on excess electric
                    > >supply and he was talking about our controversial Temelin nuclear power
                    > >plant working as planned...
                    >
                    > Any energy source can be used to power trains, one way or another.
                    > Since they are the most efficient mechanically propelled vehicles,
                    > you come out ahead. It doesn't matter if it's wind, solar, geothermal,
                    > used fryer oil, or nukes, you get the most for your energy by putting
                    > it into a train.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    >
                    > -- ### --
                    >
                    > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                    > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Andrew Dawson
                    ... Negligence isn t good, be it corporate or government. ... Now this is one place where there the FRA or US DOT(Transport Canada for me) should be stepping
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                      Richard Risemberg wrote:
                      > > I've been in the cab many times and I can't say I have ever seen that
                      >kind
                      > > of attitude amongst engineers or motormen. I've seen this "up yours"
                      > > mentality on highways though.
                      >Sorry, didn't mean to imply that engine-drivers were that way--I meant
                      >that a studied lack of maintenance could result in a collision, which
                      >would be most unfortunate for the occupants of the lighter vehicle.

                      Negligence isn't good, be it corporate or government.

                      >Sloppy track maintenance seems to be to blame for most RR wrecks--there
                      >was one just today in LA, and I saw one with my own eyes a few years
                      >ago, fortunately a minor accident. And there was the train that someone
                      >sent down the long grade west of Summit with an incorrect weight listing
                      >on the manifest, resulting in a horrible 90mph derailment that destroyed
                      >several houses....

                      Now this is one place where there the FRA or US DOT(Transport Canada for me)
                      should be stepping in and putting money back into the infrastructure. As
                      oppose to currently doing nothing and letting track decay/get ripped up.

                      Till later, Andrew Dawson

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                    • Patrick McDonough
                      North Carolina is making good headway here, and is fishing for a federal partner to fulfill its plans. So far, the incrementalist approach is working pretty
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                        North Carolina is making good headway here, and is fishing for a federal
                        partner to fulfill its plans. So far, the incrementalist approach is
                        working pretty well here.

                        Check out NC's mainline upgrade program:
                        http://www.bytrain.org/track/

                        Patrick McDonough

                        >
                        >Now this is one place where there the FRA or US DOT(Transport Canada for me)
                        >should be stepping in and putting money back into the infrastructure. As
                        >oppose to currently doing nothing and letting track decay/get ripped up.
                        >
                        >Till later, Andrew Dawson
                        >
                        >_________________________________________________________________
                        >
                        >
                      • Patrick McDonough
                        North Carolina is making good headway here, and is fishing for a federal partner to fulfill its plans. So far, the incrementalist approach is working pretty
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                          North Carolina is making good headway here, and is fishing for a federal
                          partner to fulfill its plans. So far, the incrementalist approach is
                          working pretty well here.

                          Check out NC's mainline upgrade program:
                          http://www.bytrain.org/track/

                          Patrick McDonough

                          >
                          >Now this is one place where there the FRA or US DOT(Transport Canada for me)
                          >should be stepping in and putting money back into the infrastructure. As
                          >oppose to currently doing nothing and letting track decay/get ripped up.
                          >
                          >Till later, Andrew Dawson
                          >
                          >_________________________________________________________________
                          >
                          >
                        • Andrew Dawson
                          ... I ve read many good things about North Carolina and its DOT, but it s rare to see a pro-active state. Also it helps that the NCRR is owned by the state and
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 18, 2004
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                            Patrick McDonough wrote:
                            >North Carolina is making good headway here, and is fishing for a federal
                            >partner to fulfill its plans. So far, the incrementalist approach is
                            >working pretty well here.
                            >
                            >Check out NC's mainline upgrade program:
                            >http://www.bytrain.org/track/

                            I've read many good things about North Carolina and its DOT, but it's rare
                            to see a pro-active state.
                            Also it helps that the NCRR is owned by the state and leased to NS, so they
                            have control in a major stake in the states transportation well being.

                            Still what is needed is more action on a federal level. Bring back the
                            United States Railroad Administration in some form perhaps?

                            Till later, Andrew Dawson

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