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Re: [carfree_cities] Bargain-basement underground transport?

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  • J.H. Crawford
    ... Not always; here in Amsterdam, world capital of soupy soils, they are going to bore the new metro deep underground using a tunnel boring machine. Metros
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
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      Richard Risemberg said:

      >Most Metros are built using cut-and-cover these days, I think.

      Not always; here in Amsterdam, world capital of soupy soils, they
      are going to bore the new metro deep underground using a tunnel
      boring machine. Metros close to the surface probably are built
      mostly with cut-and-cover, but many have to be deep in order to
      clear existing underground works.

      >The system you envision would not have the capacity of a metro. Even
      >LA's Metro Red Line (the other lines are surface light rail) can carry
      >800-1000 passengers per train, and rush hour trains are pretty full.
      >New York's and some of Tokyo's can carry more, with headways as low as 3
      >minutes sometimes. Small stations limit train size, so you just end up
      >with an underground bus--in which case you may as well just have busways.

      Not necessarily; the EuroTram is nearly as wide as a metro car and
      can be lengthened as needed to reach about the same capacity for a
      given length of boarding platform/train. It has to do more with the
      designed capacity than the particular mode.

      And, of course, any system in a tunnel avoids street traffic.

      Regards,



      -- ### --

      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Matt Dobbing
      Hello all In response to discussion about energy provision for a car free city Jim Dyer wrote work on the city s infrastructure, particularly the
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
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        Hello all

        In response to discussion about energy provision for a car free city Jim
        Dyer wrote

        'work on the city's infrastructure, particularly the transportation
        infrastructure,
        so as not to waste so much energy in the first place'

        I agree with this and it should be a central concept in 'green' design.
        simple design features such as a rise into a metro station and a fall out of
        it save energy on deceleration and acceleration and can easily be
        incorporated as the infrastructure is put in place.

        Matt Dobbing

        _________________________________________________________________
        Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
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      • Patrick McDonough
        I had to link to this... http://www.theonion.com/4005/news1.html
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
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        • mauk_mcamuk
          ... How is this off-topic? You gotta power that huge rail system with something, right? Have to keep the lights on in all those high- density housing units.
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
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            --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Jym Dyer <jym@e...> wrote:
            > > I mean, how would you power a carfree city? 100 percent
            > > windmills? It'd never work. Tuck in a pair of nuclear plants
            > > out in the industrial districts and now you're talking! :)
            >
            > =v= I'm not going to rehash an off-topic nuclear power debate
            > on this list.



            How is this off-topic? You gotta power that huge rail system with
            something, right? Have to keep the lights on in all those high-
            density housing units. Got to keep the economic engine ticking over
            reliably, right? Magical pixie-dust power won't cut it.

            Also, to be honest, cars use a fairly small percentage of the USA's
            energy. A modern industrialized economy is a hungry mother, and
            unless we want to look at radical changes in the economy even beyond
            ditching the automobile, we're going to have to feed the economy lots
            of energy.

            Here, check this .pdf:

            http://eed.llnl.gov/flow/pdf/ucrlID129990-00.pdf

            That paper shows that in 2000, the USA consumed a total of 98.5
            Quadrillion BTU's of primary energy. Of that, only 26.6 Quads was
            used for transportation, and even carfree cities won't displace all
            of that.


            > Anything I might have to say on the matter was
            > said 30 years ago by Amory Lovins, and about the massive costs
            > of decommissioning in particular, 20 years ago by Karl Hess.
            >

            So, you're basicaly stuck in the past and have no defense for your
            baseless comments? :)

            How about a more up-to-date look at things:

            http://www.nei.org/doc.asp?docid=501

            According to that paper, $22.5 billion has been set aside already to
            decommission the US nuclear fleet, with many more billions to come.
            This is money charged to you, me, and everybody else who uses nuclear
            electricity, and is not charged to the government.


            > =v= As for what I'd so, it's the same thing I've been saying
            > for the four years I've been on this list: work on the city's
            > infrastructure, particularly the transportation infrastructure,
            > so as not to waste so much energy in the first place. That way
            > they can be powered largely, if not totally, from clean energy
            > sources.


            Name said sources, please.

            Windmills? Excellent powersource, except that wind has low capacity
            factors and is intermittant.

            Hydro? Wonderful source of power, except it has stringent siting
            issues, and droughts can be worrisome.

            Solar? Passive solar thermal is on the ragged edge of viabillity,
            photovoltaic is completely out of the question.

            Natural gas? Seen the price of gas lately? :)





            > <_Jym_>
            > --
            > Ads below? Just ignore 'em.
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