Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Cycle Sprawl

Expand Messages
  • Lanyon, Ryan
    I ve often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle and public transit as precursors to creating auto sprawl. I must admit, while i saw the logic, I
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 15, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      I've often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle and public transit
      as precursors to creating auto sprawl. I must admit, while i saw the logic,
      I never really believed it. Maybe it's just because the scale of the sprawl
      is still mostly at a human level, unlike automobile sprawl. Then, today, I
      came across this:

      http://www.pueblobankandtrust.com/extra.shtml

      This is the first 'bicycle-only drive-through' lane I have ever seen or
      heard of. I really don't know what to make of it. progress for getting
      people out of cars, or more excuse to be a lazy, asocial society that is
      still designed around vehicles instead of people?

      Thought that might make for good discussion on here. Could bicycles
      substitute cars as the problem, if the approach to the built environment
      revolved around the bicycle (and never getting off of it) instead of the
      pedestrian?

      -RL
    • CEB
      Ryan, Well I havent looked at the article yet but my first response is that people who ride bikes often also walk...and people who take public transport often
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 15, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Ryan,
        Well I havent looked at the article yet but my first response is that people who ride bikes often also walk...and people who take public transport often walk...BUT people who drive just drive! On the other hand when in Amsterdam and near but not in the centre I find that a bike is almost more necessary than in Prague in a similar area because of lots of shops here which are very walkable. That is to say, bikes are good for the same distance as trams. In sum I think there are lots of self-identified cyclists who dont always ride so much if they live in good pedestrian neighborhoods.

        Todd in Prague
        ______________________________________________________________
        > Od: "Lanyon, Ryan" <ryan.lanyon@...>
        > Komu: "'carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com'" <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > CC:
        > Datum: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:00:14 -0500
        > Předmět: [carfree_cities] Cycle Sprawl
        >
        > I've often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle and public transit
        > as precursors to creating auto sprawl. I must admit, while i saw the logic,
        > I never really believed it. Maybe it's just because the scale of the sprawl
        > is still mostly at a human level, unlike automobile sprawl. Then, today, I
        > came across this:
        >
        > http://www.pueblobankandtrust.com/extra.shtml
        >
        > This is the first 'bicycle-only drive-through' lane I have ever seen or
        > heard of. I really don't know what to make of it. progress for getting
        > people out of cars, or more excuse to be a lazy, asocial society that is
        > still designed around vehicles instead of people?
        >
        > Thought that might make for good discussion on here. Could bicycles
        > substitute cars as the problem, if the approach to the built environment
        > revolved around the bicycle (and never getting off of it) instead of the
        > pedestrian?
        >
        > -RL
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • Christopher Miller
        Hi, Interesting point but I think the blame is misplaced here... ... While they are certainly precursors to *auto-created* sprawl (so is walking, no?), I don t
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 15, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,

          Interesting point but I think the blame is misplaced here...

          On 15 Jan 2004, at 11:00 AM, Lanyon, Ryan wrote:

          > I've often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle and public
          > transit
          > as precursors to creating auto sprawl.

          While they are certainly precursors to *auto-created* sprawl (so is
          walking, no?), I don't think anyone could credibly claim that they
          themselves created sprawl. The only connection between them and auto
          sprawl is that the routes they used were taken over by private cars,
          which have since generally managed to muscle most other transportation
          modes aside.

          > I must admit, while i saw the logic,
          > I never really believed it. Maybe it's just because the scale of the
          > sprawl
          > is still mostly at a human level, unlike automobile sprawl.

          At the human level, you are limited in the distances you can travel
          (even with bikes). You simply can't get the kind of sprawl you find
          with private cars that allow you to travel great distances at great
          speeds *and* free you from the constraint of density required for
          public transit. (Joel has a good discussion of streetcar and rail
          suburbs vs auto suburbs in his book, _Carfree Cities_.) If bikes were
          instruments of sprawl, the Netherlands and China would long ago have
          had to deal with sprawl problems similar to North America. I don't
          recall ever having seen anything of the sort mentioned anywhere...

          > Then, today, I
          > came across (...) the first 'bicycle-only drive-through' lane I have
          > ever seen or
          > heard of. (...)

          It looks like an interesting idea, i.e. at least an acknowledgement
          that bikes are a legitimate form of transportation that deserve to be
          accommodated. The bike "ride-through" is really no different, in the
          way it works, from any outside wall ATM normally conceived for
          pedestrians. I have often, be it in the Netherlands, Canada or the US,
          rolled up to an outside ATM on my bike to make a transaction. If I stay
          on my bike, it's a bit more awkward than doing everything on foot,
          unless I actually get off my bike and prop it up agains the wall, but
          doable nonetheless. The similarity with automobile drive-throughs is
          that this is one of the few uses of this 'convenience' that you can
          probably do about as easily with a bike as with a car. I find it
          implausible, for example, that a cyclist could easily manage a
          ride-through at a fast-food joint, because unless your bike has some
          kind of front basket, I think it would be difficult to transport the
          average frypit combo without some difficulty... But then, I've never
          ried this and haven't even *walked* into a fast-food place in years.

          From what I have seen of walkable Prague during a week's stay a month
          ago (basically the pedestrian district in the Old Town), it is indeed
          quite walkable as Todd points out; why you don't see the cycling
          culture there that you do in the Netherlands *might* have something to
          do with the fact that Prague, unlike (most) Dutch urban areas, tends to
          be somewhat hilly... however, Montreal, which also has its share of
          slopes to deal with between downtown and the more distant, more
          residential areas such as the Plateau and others further into the
          island, weems to have a much more thriving bike culture, summer *and
          winter* (!) than what I saw in a week's sampling of Prague.

          Where bikes are used by large numbers of people, they don't pull
          population out of the cities; they simply serve as independent means of
          travelling longer distances *within the urban area*, unhampered by the
          vagaries of public transit scheduling.

          Anyone have a different take on this?

          Chris Miller
          Washington DC, USA
        • Matt Hohmeister
          Joel s book, in the back, proposes a city that had no rail system and was something like three by five miles, called the bicycle city (I m doing this from
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 17, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Joel's book, in the back, proposes a city that had no rail system and was something
            like three by five miles, called the "bicycle city" (I'm doing this from memory; please
            don't sue me if I got it a bit wrong).

            Although I'd take a "bike-dependent" city over a "car dependent" city any day, there
            are still some problems related to car dependency, but on a smaller scale. If I lived
            three miles from work and rode my bike to work every day, that would be cool, but
            what about the time in 2002 I flew off my bike in a pedestrian mall and sprained my
            wrist for three weeks? Not wanting to buy or rent an electric wheelchair, or pay for any
            type of taxi every day, I'd be walking 45 minutes-1 hour to work every day. I think
            there needs to be accomodation for anyone who can't (or doesn't want to) ride a bike.

            Let's look at people's transport tolerance. How many cyclists are there who think that
            pedestrians are wimps who aren't helping our economy and need to buy bikes or
            leave the country? None? That's what some suburbanites think about vehicles.

            Anyway, I don't think any cycle-crazy president would declare war on an aluminum-
            rich country to give some free aluminum to his buddies at Diamondback. ;-)

            There's my $0.02.

            ~matt

            > Where bikes are used by large numbers of people, they don't pull
            > population out of the cities; they simply serve as independent means of
            > travelling longer distances *within the urban area*, unhampered by the
            > vagaries of public transit scheduling.
            >
            > Anyone have a different take on this?
            >
            > Chris Miller
            > Washington DC, USA
          • Jym Dyer
            ... =v= Yeah, I found this comment to be an odd one, and certainly not one I ve often heard, at least in such terms. =v= It s true that the bicyclist good
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 17, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >> I've often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle
              >> and public transit as precursors to creating auto sprawl.
              > While they are certainly precursors to *auto-created* sprawl
              > (so is walking, no?), I don't think anyone could credibly
              > claim that they themselves created sprawl.

              =v= Yeah, I found this comment to be an odd one, and certainly
              not one I've often heard, at least in such terms.

              =v= It's true that the bicyclist "good roads" movement ended
              up helping automobiles, but good paved roads alone don't cause
              sprawl any more than the entire human history of road-building.

              =v= It's also true that streetcars made a type of suburb
              possible, but to me, these are so qualitatively different from
              sprawl as to be on a completely different family tree! Indeed,
              the prevailing antidote to car-oriented sprawl is something
              called transit-oriented design (TOD), which is based on the
              "streetcar suburb" model!
              <_Jym_>
            • Bijan Soleymani
              ... I don t think this is entirely fair. In a city where you can afford to live 3 miles away from work, you re probably very likely to be able to afford to
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 17, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                "Matt Hohmeister" <mdh6214@...> writes:

                > Although I'd take a "bike-dependent" city over a "car dependent"
                > city any day, there are still some problems related to car
                > dependency, but on a smaller scale. If I lived three miles from work
                > and rode my bike to work every day, that would be cool, but what
                > about the time in 2002 I flew off my bike in a pedestrian mall and
                > sprained my wrist for three weeks? Not wanting to buy or rent an
                > electric wheelchair, or pay for any type of taxi every day, I'd be
                > walking 45 minutes-1 hour to work every day. I think there needs to
                > be accomodation for anyone who can't (or doesn't want to) ride a
                > bike.

                I don't think this is entirely fair. In a city where you can afford to
                live 3 miles away from work, you're probably very likely to be able to
                afford to live 1 or 2 miles away from work (Unless the city has
                housing on one side, work on the other, and wasteland in the middle
                :). And besides a one hour walk to work for 3 weeks isn't bad (at
                least if you're like me and enjoy walking :).

                Bijan
                --
                Bijan Soleymani <bijan@...>
                http://www.crasseux.com
              • CEB
                I am Transit oriented design design - Todd ... Pus»te svùj starý telefon k vodì! SIEMENS A52 ji¾ od 577 Kè www.oskar.cz
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 18, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I am Transit oriented design design

                  - Todd

                  ______________________________________________________________
                  > Od: Jym Dyer <jym@...>
                  > Komu: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  > CC:
                  > Datum: 17 Jan 2004 13:14:04 -0800
                  > Předmět: [carfree_cities] Re: Cycle Sprawl
                  >
                  > >> I've often heard transportation critics cite the bicycle
                  > >> and public transit as precursors to creating auto sprawl.
                  > > While they are certainly precursors to *auto-created* sprawl
                  > > (so is walking, no?), I don't think anyone could credibly
                  > > claim that they themselves created sprawl.
                  >
                  > =v= Yeah, I found this comment to be an odd one, and certainly
                  > not one I've often heard, at least in such terms.
                  >
                  > =v= It's true that the bicyclist "good roads" movement ended
                  > up helping automobiles, but good paved roads alone don't cause
                  > sprawl any more than the entire human history of road-building.
                  >
                  > =v= It's also true that streetcars made a type of suburb
                  > possible, but to me, these are so qualitatively different from
                  > sprawl as to be on a completely different family tree! Indeed,
                  > the prevailing antidote to car-oriented sprawl is something
                  > called transit-oriented design (TOD), which is based on the
                  > "streetcar suburb" model!
                  > <_Jym_>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >

                  --------------------
                  Pusťte svůj starý telefon k vodě! SIEMENS A52 již od 577 Kč www.oskar.cz
                  http://user.centrum.cz/redir.php?url=http://www.oskarmobil.cz/handsets/hs_view1.php3?nob=1&lang=cz&hs_id=71&ii=1
                • dubluth
                  If we are comparing human powered and various non-human powered modes of transport, it is worth noting that motor transport greatly reduces the necessary
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 18, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If we are comparing human powered and various non-human powered modes
                    of transport, it is worth noting that motor transport greatly reduces
                    the necessary physical exertion and increases achievable speeds over
                    walking and cycling. Of course, the seperate technologies of walking
                    and cycling are quantitively different, but exertion remains a factor.

                    Time is an important constraint. While a little time spent walking or
                    cycling should be much more enjoyable than sitting on a congested
                    freeway, people spend hours a day commuting by car. I'm not sure if
                    this says more about the effort spent avoiding even modest physical
                    exertion or the limited options available.

                    I've wondered about congestion on mass transit. A number of factors
                    seem to come into play. The capacity of the transit, the cost
                    (including physical effort) in reaching the stop, the density of uses
                    at stops, the fare, and the available uses of people's time. At
                    higher levels of use, crowding itself would influence people's
                    decisions to take transit trips.

                    The limits on destination use levels in Joel's design (4 stories
                    maximum building height) and the self contained nature may result in
                    transit not becoming overly congested -- even without fares. It has
                    been some time since I read the book, so I may not remember what was
                    said about this.

                    I may have also missed where functions like mass spectator sporting
                    events, concerts, and large festivals were discussed. If the
                    transport system were only designed to comfortably accomodate daily
                    commuting and minor tourism, it might not be up to the task of serving
                    large events taking place away from the central hub. Attendance at a
                    particularly popular community festival at a district off the central
                    hub might be limited by transit congestion. More importantly, such
                    sporatic congestion would cause inconvenience and significant delays
                    for commuters. (However, the stress of some occasional heavy usage
                    isn't necessarily bad. Many can appreciate the variety in occasional
                    interuptions to the normal routine).

                    Congestion events are already a fact of life for the automobile
                    transportation system -- perhaps to a larger degree than they would be
                    with a mass transit system.

                    Bill

                    BTW, on the subject of events, recently I read somewhere about a
                    phenomena of "happenings" where people make an impromtu arrangement to
                    breifly converge on an area and do something en-mass that is out of
                    context. It seems like a dadaist exercise, sometimes creating a taste
                    of incongruity.

                    --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Jym Dyer <jym@e...> wrote:
                  • Richard Risemberg
                    ... In 82 I went to the Bastille Day parade at, of course, Place de la Bastil in Paris. About one million people attended, the flics permitted no cars to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 18, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      dubluth wrote:
                      > I may have also missed where functions like mass spectator sporting
                      > events, concerts, and large festivals were discussed. If the
                      > transport system were only designed to comfortably accomodate daily
                      > commuting and minor tourism, it might not be up to the task of serving
                      > large events taking place away from the central hub.
                      >
                      >
                      In '82 I went to the Bastille Day parade at, of course, Place de la
                      Bastil in Paris. About one million people attended, the flics permitted
                      no cars to enter, and then, after it was over, the cops directed
                      everyone to the Metro stations that surround the square. I figured to
                      beat the lines and started to walk out, but a hat informed me that there
                      was no walking out either--everyone to the trains!

                      I resigned myself to a long wait in line and headed back to the P de la
                      B. I'd been gone about twenty minutes, maybe twenty-five,a nd possibly
                      less than twenty.

                      I don't know how they ever did it, but the P de la B was almost empty;
                      the queues at the station about 50 meters long. I was home in no time.

                      The system was nearly a hundred years old at the time (though of course
                      the French upgrade it regularly).

                      Don't worry.

                      Richard
                      --
                      Richard Risemberg
                      http://www.living-room.org
                      http://www.newcolonist.com

                      "I believe that every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity,
                      an obligation; every possession, a duty."
                      John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
                    • Bijan Soleymani
                      ... That s very odd... No walking? Was the metro ride free? If not how could they force you to pay to leave a public place to get home? Let alone why... Bijan
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 31, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Richard Risemberg <rickrise@...> writes:

                        > In '82 I went to the Bastille Day parade at, of course, Place de la
                        > Bastil in Paris. About one million people attended, the flics permitted
                        > no cars to enter, and then, after it was over, the cops directed
                        > everyone to the Metro stations that surround the square. I figured to
                        > beat the lines and started to walk out, but a hat informed me that there
                        > was no walking out either--everyone to the trains!

                        That's very odd... No walking? Was the metro ride free? If not how could
                        they force you to pay to leave a public place to get home? Let alone why...

                        Bijan
                        --
                        Bijan Soleymani <bijan@...>
                        http://www.crasseux.com
                      • Richard Risemberg
                        I do not recall whether the Metro ride was free or not. As I recall, in that day of the strong dollar, it would have cost me the equivalent of ten cents. But
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 31, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I do not recall whether the Metro ride was free or not. As I recall, in
                          that day of the strong dollar, it would have cost me the equivalent of
                          ten cents. But it may have been free...I just don't remember. I do
                          remember the cop turning me back to the square as I attempted to walk
                          home. I suppose that if I'd waited another hour or so they would have
                          opened the streets to usual traffic.

                          That was the year of the Israeli incursion into Lebanon, and Arab
                          terrorists were blowing up Jewish institutions all over France; the
                          police presence was heavy at that time, with cops carrying submachine
                          guns a common sight all over the city. Fear of more actions may have
                          contributed to the policy decision to close off the square, which is the
                          French equivalent of Independence Hall and Concord combined--although as
                          far as I know there were no Jewish institutions in the area, and the
                          Mitterand government was not particularly friendly to Israel. (At least
                          they didn't have Homeland-Security style ads everywhere....)

                          R

                          Bijan Soleymani wrote:

                          > Richard Risemberg <rickrise@...> writes:
                          >
                          >
                          >>In '82 I went to the Bastille Day parade at, of course, Place de la
                          >>Bastil in Paris. About one million people attended, the flics permitted
                          >>no cars to enter, and then, after it was over, the cops directed
                          >>everyone to the Metro stations that surround the square. I figured to
                          >>beat the lines and started to walk out, but a hat informed me that there
                          >>was no walking out either--everyone to the trains!
                          >
                          >
                          > That's very odd... No walking? Was the metro ride free? If not how could
                          > they force you to pay to leave a public place to get home? Let alone why...
                          >
                          > Bijan


                          --
                          Richard Risemberg
                          http://www.living-room.org
                          http://www.newcolonist.com

                          "I believe that every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity,
                          an obligation; every possession, a duty."
                          John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.