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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Talking Points: The huge subsudy for driving

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  • Alex Farran
    ... Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other cars pulling out
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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      dubluth writes:

      > I feel there is a strong safety argument against giving automobiles
      > priority. It feels unsafe to me when a car or truck passes within
      > inches at speeds approaching or in excess of 40mph. When this
      > happens I invariably move away from the curb to the center of the
      > lane to unequivicably claim the full lane since I am reminded that a
      > few people don't yet know that bicycles ARE a part of traffic.

      Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible
      in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other
      cars pulling out for something.

      --

      __o Alex Farran
      _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
      (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
    • dubluth
      In a city used for multiple modes of travel, and that would include a carfree city which gives priority to pedestrians, people would learn to see one another
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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        In a city used for multiple modes of travel, and that would include a
        carfree city which gives priority to pedestrians, people would learn
        to see one another and their vehicles.

        "I didn't see him" seems to be the inevitable response when a motorist
        is called on for intruding into a bicyclist's space. Strangly, the
        driver seems to think this puts any blame on the bicyclist, who is
        implied to be invisible. All licensing jurisdictions require
        motorists to pass a vision test -- a fact that reinforces the idea
        that people have an obligation to use their good eyes when operating a
        car or truck.

        I'm warry of lending support to the claim that bicycles driven in
        daylight or at night with proper lights are ever invisible. Curb
        huggers aren't making themselves as obvious as they may need to be.
        However, automobile drivers shouldn't be given a pass for missing what
        is in plain view.

        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Alex Farran <alex@a...> wrote:
        > Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible
        > in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other
        > cars pulling out for something.
        >
        > --
        >
        > __o Alex Farran
        > _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
        > (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
      • turpin
        ... Amen! Paying attention is the first obligation of anyone operating a car or truck. ... That, however, brings up the unfortunate fact that many bicyclists
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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          "dubluth" <dubluth@y...> wrote:
          > All licensing jurisdictions require
          > motorists to pass a vision test --
          > a fact that reinforces the idea
          > that people have an obligation to
          > use their good eyes when operating
          > a car or truck.

          Amen!

          Paying attention is the first
          obligation of anyone operating a car
          or truck.

          > I'm warry of lending support to
          > the claim that bicycles driven in
          > daylight or at night with proper
          > lights are ever invisible. ..

          That, however, brings up the
          unfortunate fact that many bicyclists
          at night are NOT properly lighted.
          A bicyclist without good reflectors
          or light, and often wearing dark
          clothes, can seem to appear out of
          nowhere. I've never had a close call,
          between me driving and someone else
          bicycling, because I do keep my eyes
          on the road when driving, and give
          bicyclists their safe distance. But
          I have noticed many bicyclists at
          night, with no reflector or light,
          who would have been very easy not to
          notice until too late.

          When I bicycled at night, I always
          wore yellow reflective leg bands,
          and turned on two lights, a white
          headlight and a red strobe light in
          rear. I may have looked a bit like a
          brightly lighted clown. But I wanted
          to be seen. And in the unfortunate
          happenstance that some idiot ran me
          down anyway, I wanted my heirs'
          lawyer to be able to put up a
          picture of me brightly lit up, as he
          asked the idiot who ran me down,
          "THIS is what you failed to see?!?"
          ;-)

          Seriously, if you bike at night,
          take some effort to make yourself
          visible. And even in bright day,
          watch out for the idiots who are
          driving a car without paying
          attention.
        • lockhughes
          ... I have driven a scooter over a couple of hundred km s of *empty* suburban sidewalks since March. By empty I mean pedestrian counts of maybe a dozen an
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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            > The fear I have about bicycle paths is that drivers
            > may wrongly think cyclists don't have the full access
            > to the road as well. Bicycles are vehicles, and I'm
            > in favor of giving them full road space, but not
            > sidewalks. Sidewalks are for walking not vehicles.
            > We have so little space for walking, so until we get
            > more, we have to keep what we have.

            I have driven a scooter over a couple of hundred km's of *empty*
            suburban sidewalks since March. By "empty" I mean pedestrian counts
            of maybe a dozen an hour. Less than 1% of these folk have objected to
            me or given any signs of displeasure as I go by. The vast majority
            of comments (about my vehicle) are always very positive.

            So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
            eg
            rollerblades?
            rollerskis?
            rollerskates?
            skateboards?
            scooters?
            bicycles?
            tricycles?
            mobility scooters?
            motorized luggage carts?


            Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
            car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
            (link to twike:)
            <http://twike.cjb.net/>

            Is the Panasonic folder a bicycle?
            (link to folder:)
            http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/panasonic.htm

            How will we know when our city is "car free"?

            Lock
          • autofrei-wohnen.de
            Hi Lock, ... For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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              Hi Lock,
              you asked:

              | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
              | eg
              | rollerblades?
              | rollerskis?
              | rollerskates?
              | skateboards?
              | scooters?
              | bicycles?
              | tricycles?
              | mobility scooters?
              | motorized luggage carts?

              For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking, the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children, but they have to be teached to pass very slow !

              In Germany and other countries exist different possibilties of street-use like
              - "bicycle-street" ("Fahrradstrasse"), means: ciyclist are privileged, and only cars of street`s inhabitants are allowed
              - "play-street" ("Spielstrasse"), means: playing children are privileged, and cars have to drive VERY slow (speed of pedestrians)
              - "youth-street" ("Jugendstrasse"), means: the street is closed for cars and filled up with installations to play and do sport activities, see Berlin`s new example www.jugendstrasse-berlin.de (german only)
              - "traffic-reduced commercial-area" ("verkehrsberuhigter Geschaeftsbereich"), means: speed of e.g. 10 km/h with other rules in the special case
              - "flaneur-zone" ("Flanierzone", developped in Burgdorf, CH), or new official term: "meeting-zone" ("Begegnungszone") (new case in Switzerland`s Building Law Code, in case of interest I can fax the related law paper, I have only the german version), means pedestrians are privileged and can use the whole street space; maximum speed 20 km/h
              - "30 km/h-zone" ("Tempo 30 Zone"), means maximum speed of 30 km/h
              up to
              - "pedestrian zone" ("Fussgaengerzone"), means: I hope you all know this very well.

              ... so for every situation there is an instrumentarium for the best solution. Our goal should be the implementation of more of these solutions in the public consciousness and urban reality.

              I don`t like the (direction of this) subtle discussion about permissions for the use of sidewalks.
              In general, I wish there would be more discussion in this newsgroup about new carfree areas or carfree action (like these days) in our environment, more reports and exchange of experiences.
              **********************
              | Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
              | car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
              | (link to twike:)
              | <http://twike.cjb.net/>

              I know one of the owners of a Twike in Berlin: He classifies it as a Car.

              Any vehicle is a car, if it has the usual size of cars, is faster than pedestrians and needs non-human energy. The problem with them is not only its pollution and noise, but also the big consumption of space (that can be used much better and makes housing more expensive than it could be) and the danger of its speed for people on the streets (last point see together with the problem of hard metal against human flesh).
              Isn`t this clear enough ?
              **********************
              | How will we know when our city is "car free"?

              If you see there no cars during most of the day- and nighttime. Usually in our pedestrian areas are special & short time-zones for commercial & private delivery and inhabitants (only if they have a garage in the zone). A good example is the innercity of Freiburg in Germany. Read this english article about:
              "Freiburg's green transport policies are central to the city's development, reports Rolf Böhme"
              http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/121/bohme.html

              The definition of "carfree" says: if you have only 0.1-0.2 parking places per dwelling and no traffic in the related area, except some serious exceptions ("blue-light"-traffic, delivery, handicapts).
              If you have more you can call it "low car housing" and "traffic-reduced", and there are more other terms for it.
              See more about carfree definitions:
              http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/Definition.html (sorry, still german only)

              More links about worldwide carfree vacation destinations and carfree initatives & projects:
              http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/projects.html (Introduction page of the related chapter in English)

              best,
              Markus Heller, Berlin
              http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html (Introduction page in English)



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • mtneuman@juno.com
              We have a state law in Wisconsin that requires that if a bicyclist rides by (passes) a pedestrian on a bicycle path or a sidewalk (if local govt. allows riding
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                We have a state law in Wisconsin that requires that if a bicyclist rides
                by (passes) a pedestrian on a bicycle path or a sidewalk (if local govt.
                allows riding on the sidewalks), that the bicyclist must first make an
                "audible" when he/she approaches to pass, so that the pedestrian or
                bicyclist is aware that a bicyclist is going to pass by. The audible is
                usually: "bicycle passing on your left".

                Mike

                On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:19:45 +0200 "autofrei-wohnen.de"
                <info@...> writes:
                > Hi Lock,
                > you asked:
                >
                > | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                > | eg
                > | rollerblades?
                > | rollerskis?
                > | rollerskates?
                > | skateboards?
                > | scooters?
                > | bicycles?
                > | tricycles?
                > | mobility scooters?
                > | motorized luggage carts?
                >
                > For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if
                > possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the
                > shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher
                > speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking,
                > the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than
                > pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children,
                > but they have to be teached to pass very slow !
                >
                > In Germany and other countries exist different possibilties of
                > street-use like
                > - "bicycle-street" ("Fahrradstrasse"), means: ciyclist are
                > privileged, and only cars of street`s inhabitants are allowed
                > - "play-street" ("Spielstrasse"), means: playing children are
                > privileged, and cars have to drive VERY slow (speed of pedestrians)
                > - "youth-street" ("Jugendstrasse"), means: the street is closed for
                > cars and filled up with installations to play and do sport
                > activities, see Berlin`s new example www.jugendstrasse-berlin.de
                > (german only)
                > - "traffic-reduced commercial-area" ("verkehrsberuhigter
                > Geschaeftsbereich"), means: speed of e.g. 10 km/h with other rules
                > in the special case
                > - "flaneur-zone" ("Flanierzone", developped in Burgdorf, CH), or new
                > official term: "meeting-zone" ("Begegnungszone") (new case in
                > Switzerland`s Building Law Code, in case of interest I can fax the
                > related law paper, I have only the german version), means
                > pedestrians are privileged and can use the whole street space;
                > maximum speed 20 km/h
                > - "30 km/h-zone" ("Tempo 30 Zone"), means maximum speed of 30 km/h
                > up to
                > - "pedestrian zone" ("Fussgaengerzone"), means: I hope you all know
                > this very well.
                >
                > ... so for every situation there is an instrumentarium for the best
                > solution. Our goal should be the implementation of more of these
                > solutions in the public consciousness and urban reality.
                >
                > I don`t like the (direction of this) subtle discussion about
                > permissions for the use of sidewalks.
                > In general, I wish there would be more discussion in this newsgroup
                > about new carfree areas or carfree action (like these days) in our
                > environment, more reports and exchange of experiences.
                > **********************
                > | Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
                > | car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
                > | (link to twike:)
                > | <http://twike.cjb.net/>
                >
                > I know one of the owners of a Twike in Berlin: He classifies it as a
                > Car.
                >
                > Any vehicle is a car, if it has the usual size of cars, is faster
                > than pedestrians and needs non-human energy. The problem with them
                > is not only its pollution and noise, but also the big consumption of
                > space (that can be used much better and makes housing more expensive
                > than it could be) and the danger of its speed for people on the
                > streets (last point see together with the problem of hard metal
                > against human flesh).
                > Isn`t this clear enough ?
                > **********************
                > | How will we know when our city is "car free"?
                >
                > If you see there no cars during most of the day- and nighttime.
                > Usually in our pedestrian areas are special & short time-zones for
                > commercial & private delivery and inhabitants (only if they have a
                > garage in the zone). A good example is the innercity of Freiburg in
                > Germany. Read this english article about:
                > "Freiburg's green transport policies are central to the city's
                > development, reports Rolf B�hme"
                > http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/121/bohme.html
                >
                > The definition of "carfree" says: if you have only 0.1-0.2 parking
                > places per dwelling and no traffic in the related area, except some
                > serious exceptions ("blue-light"-traffic, delivery, handicapts).
                > If you have more you can call it "low car housing" and
                > "traffic-reduced", and there are more other terms for it.
                > See more about carfree definitions:
                > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/Definition.html (sorry, still german
                > only)
                >
                > More links about worldwide carfree vacation destinations and carfree
                > initatives & projects:
                > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/projects.html (Introduction page of
                > the related chapter in English)
                >
                > best,
                > Markus Heller, Berlin
                > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html (Introduction page in
                > English)
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                >
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                >
                >
                >


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              • Richard Risemberg
                I agree--no wheeled vehicles on sidewalk except for wheelchairs and the scooter-chairs that disabled people use. (Speaking of adult users only here, of
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                  I agree--no wheeled vehicles on sidewalk except for wheelchairs and the
                  scooter-chairs that disabled people use. (Speaking of adult users only
                  here, of course.)

                  I realize most peoples' experiences in sidewalk mixing come from
                  suburban-plan areas where no one walks. In the carfree city--and that
                  is what we must build toward--every who can walks walks at least
                  sometimes.

                  In other words, images riding your bicycle/scooter/skateboard/whatever
                  down Fifth Avenue in Manhattan...wheels belong on the street. (And cars
                  belong on roads, outside of town.)

                  Richard

                  autofrei-wohnen.de wrote:

                  > Hi Lock,
                  > you asked:
                  >
                  > | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                  > | eg
                  > | rollerblades?
                  > | rollerskis?
                  > | rollerskates?
                  > | skateboards?
                  > | scooters?
                  > | bicycles?
                  > | tricycles?
                  > | mobility scooters?
                  > | motorized luggage carts?
                  >
                  > For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking, the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children, but they have to be teached to pass very slow !

                  --
                  Richard Risemberg
                  http://www.living-room.org
                  http://www.newcolonist.com

                  "I believe that every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity,
                  an obligation; every possession, a duty."
                  John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
                • Mark Jaroski
                  ... Actually, in a real carfree city there is no need for sidwalks. For instance in the carfree sections which most European cities have there are no curbs,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 24, 2003
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                    Richard Risemberg wrote:
                    > I realize most peoples' experiences in sidewalk mixing come from
                    > suburban-plan areas where no one walks. In the carfree city--and that
                    > is what we must build toward--every who can walks walks at least
                    > sometimes.

                    Actually, in a real carfree city there is no need for
                    sidwalks. For instance in the carfree sections which most
                    European cities have there are no curbs, and no sidwalks.

                    The exception is the carfree area around Forum Les-Halles in
                    paris, but that was only recently converted to carfree.

                    --
                    --
                    =================================================================
                    -- mark at geekhive dot net --
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