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Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad

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  • J.H. Crawford
    Hi All, I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists Rights Triad I would like to simplify the discussion by
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
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      Hi All,

      I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion:

      [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad

      I would like to simplify the discussion by simply removing
      cars and trucks from the equation, as in a carfree city.

      What are the conflicts between pedestrians and cyclists,
      skate boarders, and in-liner skaters in a carfree city?
      How do we minimize the number of conflicts that arise?
      How do we resolve them?

      I propose the following traffic rules:

      Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
      Yield to all traffic coming from the right
      Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
      Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
      5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
      Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
      Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
      walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)

      [In a less conservative case, the operator can ride aboard
      the vehicle, with the speed governed to 12 km/hr or so.]

      In _Carfree Cities_ I proposed a 33-meter-wide central boulevard
      that includes a bike freeway with dedicated lanes 6 meters wide,
      as shown in this GIF:

      http://www.carfree.com/blvd-x-section.gif

      Bike lanes are the inner-most (thus fastest) travel lanes, with
      PAV lanes between the bike lanes and the sidewalks
      The two oncoming bike lanes are separated by an island one meter wide
      (maybe more?).
      Pedestrian crossing lights are timed for cyclists at whatever speed
      is desired (suggest 20 km/hr), since the island allows different
      timings in the opposing lanes
      Pedestrians must yield to cyclists when crossing the central boulevard but
      may cross when clear, at any point

      (On bike paths outside the built-up area, I don't see a need for
      any kind of speed limit for bikes, but they need to share the space
      safely with other users, which will include emergency vehicles, to
      which they must yield.)

      Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they get
      along with each other? Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?

      I have also proposed "electric donkeys" (as I then called them), which
      are simply battery-powered or battery-assisted two- and three-wheel
      bicycles, for use by those who were not fit enough to use a normal
      pedal bike. These would have stored energy enough to cross the town
      on one charge (and hopefully a return trip, too). These vehicles are
      now a few years old. I tried one at Bike Station in Long Beach in 2000.
      I thought it was very heavy (maybe 70 pounds) and far more powerful
      than I would have preferred. It had none of the finesse of a bike.
      But, clearly, these vehicles basically exist now and will certainly be
      further refined. I propose to limit them to 20 km/hr (by governor),
      so they are no faster than real bikes, and can therefore share the
      same right of way, and compete, as it were, on an even footing.

      Possibly, slow-speed operation of electric donkeys would be permitted
      in the PAV lanes, for those who prefer a slower pace.

      Thoughts?

      Regards,



      -- ### --

      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Ross or Judy
      The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills. Ross ... From:
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
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        The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
        need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.
        Ross

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
        To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 12:24 AM
        Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad


        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion:
        >
        > [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad
        >
        > I would like to simplify the discussion by simply removing
        > cars and trucks from the equation, as in a carfree city.
        >
        > What are the conflicts between pedestrians and cyclists,
        > skate boarders, and in-liner skaters in a carfree city?
        > How do we minimize the number of conflicts that arise?
        > How do we resolve them?
        >
        > I propose the following traffic rules:
        >
        > Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
        > Yield to all traffic coming from the right
        > Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
        > Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
        > 5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
        > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
        > Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
        > walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)
        >
        > [In a less conservative case, the operator can ride aboard
        > the vehicle, with the speed governed to 12 km/hr or so.]
        >
        > In _Carfree Cities_ I proposed a 33-meter-wide central boulevard
        > that includes a bike freeway with dedicated lanes 6 meters wide,
        > as shown in this GIF:
        >
        > http://www.carfree.com/blvd-x-section.gif
        >
        > Bike lanes are the inner-most (thus fastest) travel lanes, with
        > PAV lanes between the bike lanes and the sidewalks
        > The two oncoming bike lanes are separated by an island one meter wide
        > (maybe more?).
        > Pedestrian crossing lights are timed for cyclists at whatever speed
        > is desired (suggest 20 km/hr), since the island allows different
        > timings in the opposing lanes
        > Pedestrians must yield to cyclists when crossing the central boulevard but
        > may cross when clear, at any point
        >
        > (On bike paths outside the built-up area, I don't see a need for
        > any kind of speed limit for bikes, but they need to share the space
        > safely with other users, which will include emergency vehicles, to
        > which they must yield.)
        >
        > Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they get
        > along with each other? Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?
        >
        > I have also proposed "electric donkeys" (as I then called them), which
        > are simply battery-powered or battery-assisted two- and three-wheel
        > bicycles, for use by those who were not fit enough to use a normal
        > pedal bike. These would have stored energy enough to cross the town
        > on one charge (and hopefully a return trip, too). These vehicles are
        > now a few years old. I tried one at Bike Station in Long Beach in 2000.
        > I thought it was very heavy (maybe 70 pounds) and far more powerful
        > than I would have preferred. It had none of the finesse of a bike.
        > But, clearly, these vehicles basically exist now and will certainly be
        > further refined. I propose to limit them to 20 km/hr (by governor),
        > so they are no faster than real bikes, and can therefore share the
        > same right of way, and compete, as it were, on an even footing.
        >
        > Possibly, slow-speed operation of electric donkeys would be permitted
        > in the PAV lanes, for those who prefer a slower pace.
        >
        > Thoughts?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        >
        >
        > -- ### --
        >
        > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • turpin
        ... Did you mean to write 20 mph? 20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8 kph. A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph, but a good runner will do 20 kph, and many
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
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          J. H. Crawford:
          > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit
          > is 20 km/hr .. Thoughts?

          Did you mean to write 20 mph?

          20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8
          kph. A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph,
          but a good runner will do 20 kph, and
          many will exceed that healthily for short
          distances.

          Bicycling on flat ground, 25 kph is a
          pretty pedestrian pace. Most bicyclists
          would chafe under that speed regime.
        • look384
          ... I agree that on all roads except the central boulevard pedestrians should have the right of way, and yielding to all traffic from the right works well. It
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
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            > I propose the following traffic rules:
            >
            > Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
            > Yield to all traffic coming from the right
            > Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
            > Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
            > 5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
            > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
            > Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
            > walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)
            >
            I agree that on all roads except the central boulevard pedestrians
            should have the right of way, and yielding to all traffic from the
            right works well. It eliminates the need for controlled
            intersections and is an easy traffic rule to learn.

            I'm not sure I'm sold on the restrictions for bicyles on roads less
            than 5 meters. I live on a road close to 5 m (in Germany), and ride
            a bicycle on that road without an problem daily. The speed is
            naturally slow, but probably closer to 25 kph than 20 kph. There
            usually aren't pedestrians on the road at the same time I'm on it,
            but when there are, my speed drops to a pedestrian pace and warnings
            are given at conversation-level. I don't know how to make a law that
            enforces that behavior, and as seen in other German towns cyclists
            can become a nusance in heavily pedestrianed areas. Given that few
            roads will be narrower than 5 m, maybe walking isn't bad, or
            enforcing a 10 kph speed on streets narrower than 5 m and walking
            when heavily trafficked by pedestrians.

            All other speed limits are reasonable, as I understand them. 20 kph
            on roads 5-8 meters wide (although I prefer 25 kph as suggested by
            someone else) and I assume no speed limit for bicycles in the central
            boulevard.

            Kevin
          • J.H. Crawford
            Hi All, ... No, I meant 20 km/hr. ... That is exceptionally fast. Standard walking speed is normally taken as 250 ft/minute, or about 4.5 km/hr. ... I would
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
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              Hi All,

              Turpin said:

              >> Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit
              >> is 20 km/hr .. Thoughts?
              >
              >Did you mean to write 20 mph?

              No, I meant 20 km/hr.

              >20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8
              >kph.

              That is exceptionally fast. "Standard walking speed" is normally
              taken as 250 ft/minute, or about 4.5 km/hr.

              >A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph,
              >but a good runner will do 20 kph, and
              >many will exceed that healthily for short
              >distances.

              I would venture to say that less than 1% of the population can
              achieve, even momentarily, 20 km/hr on foot.

              >Bicycling on flat ground, 25 kph is a
              >pretty pedestrian pace. Most bicyclists
              >would chafe under that speed regime.

              A few bicyclists, many of whom are members of this list, would chafe
              under that restriction. If you observe the speed of the average
              Dutch cyclist, it's probably less than 20 km/hr. I'm not an especially
              fit cyclist and ride a touring bike (with upright bars, so I can see).
              I pass most Dutch cyclists yet I'm only going about 20 km/hr, I think.
              I grant that 40 km/hr is possible for a cyclist in good condition on
              good roads with a top-class bike, but these are not the conditions for
              which we must design. (High speeds are possible outside the built-up
              area, but I think cycling at speeds over 20 km/hr poses excessive risk
              to other street users, even on the central boulevard.)

              One point about the central boulevard is that I think it has to have
              traffic lights, to allow pedestrians to cross. This means that the
              lights are either timed, for some particular speed, or that a whole
              stretch of lights cycles simultaneously, which means, in practice,
              that you're going to have to stop for a light about once a minute.
              (Maybe something can be worked out for semi-timed block operations,
              which might conceiveable get the stop-frequency down to once every
              two minutes while never forcing a pedestrian to wait more than one
              minute to cross, which I think is the upper limit of what people
              will accept.)

              -------------------------

              Kevin said:

              >I'm not sure I'm sold on the restrictions for bicyles on roads less
              >than 5 meters.

              I'm talking about a city street, not a rural road. I'm expecting
              there to be heavy foot traffic in these streets (and kids playing
              ball, neighbors playing cards, etc.), so there is simply not room
              for anyone to cycle at any speed. (I'll grant that if cyclists are
              will to slow way down, they can mix safely in these conditions,
              until the level of foot traffic gets pretty high.)

              >All other speed limits are reasonable, as I understand them. 20 kph
              >on roads 5-8 meters wide (although I prefer 25 kph as suggested by
              >someone else) and I assume no speed limit for bicycles in the central
              >boulevard.

              As noted above, the lights have to be timed at some speed or other,
              and this needs to be a speed that your average granny can reach,
              or nearly so, as otherwise she will be having to stop at almost
              every light.



              I posed this issue because I know it is actually a contentious one,
              and I have conflicting feelings about it myself. I'd love it if
              someone could simulate foot and bike traffic over the central boulevard,
              so we can see what we're trying to deal with. I think that, at least
              during rush hour, there would be pretty heavy traffic on the central
              boulevard. Many streets here in Amsterdam have pretty heavy bike
              traffic at times, and it certainly can make crossing the street a
              challenge.

              Regards,











              -- ### --

              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • J.H. Crawford
              ... Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below grade), grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%, so
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
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                Ross said:

                >The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
                >need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.

                Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below grade),
                grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%,
                so there will be no possibility to achieve such speeds.

                I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire truck
                withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                battery boost.)

                Regards,


                -- ### --

                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
              • Alex Farran
                I think there are too many rules. We need rules and traffic lights and dedicated lanes to control dangerous motor traffic. As a cyclist I no more want to
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
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                  I think there are too many rules. We need rules and traffic lights
                  and dedicated lanes to control dangerous motor traffic. As a cyclist
                  I no more want to come off my bike than a pedestrian wants to be hit,
                  and it's 50/50 who'll come off worse. I reckon cyclists and
                  pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave appropriately
                  for to the circumstances without being told.

                  --

                  __o Alex Farran
                  _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                  (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
                • lockhughes
                  ... Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one hand, motor traffic is dangerous, and OTOH cyclists and pedestrians can adapt to each others
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
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                    --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Alex Farran <alex@a...> wrote:
                    > I think there are too many rules. We need rules and
                    > traffic lights and dedicated lanes to control dangerous
                    > motor traffic. As a cyclist I no more want to come off
                    > my bike than a pedestrian wants to be hit, and it's
                    > 50/50 who'll come off worse. I reckon cyclists and
                    > pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                    > appropriately for to the circumstances without being told.
                    > __o Alex Farran
                    > _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                    > (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

                    Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one
                    hand, "motor traffic" is dangerous, and OTOH "cyclists and
                    pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                    appropriately for to the circumstances without being told."

                    Other than the obvious differences of weight and top speeds of
                    larger motorized vehicles (cars and up) compared to everything
                    lighter (like a ped or a bike), it all comes down to behaviour?

                    Our traditional approach to regulation is to classify and register
                    and to regulate vehicles and operators.

                    My motor vehicle weighs 50lbs, doesn't go as fast as many folks on
                    bicycles, and I believe it is safer for me and those around me than a
                    bicycle. And it has great brakes.

                    My point would be that many divisions have blurred, between
                    pedestrians and the variety of ways that we humans put wheels under
                    us to get us around a little faster or a little easier.

                    Utopian OK, but I'd like to see more of a social compact between
                    travellers. Peds must always rule, but amongst all peds and folks on
                    wheels, there needs to be a basic agreement respecting our fellow
                    travellers and moderating our walking and driving behaviours as
                    circumstances and our immediate surroundings dictate.

                    Because I ride a motorized vehicle which most folks are unfamiliar
                    with (a kick scooter that has two batteries onboard), I slow down as
                    necessary so that peds et al are not nervous at my approach and
                    passing by. Because I have a power-assist onboard, I can easily
                    accelerate back up to speed, so little time is lost in slowing down
                    around peds and blind corners and intersections etc etc.

                    Other than setting top speeds (and I don't wish to go THERE <smile>,
                    if I were King I would dictate that speeds be reduced to withing 2-
                    3kph difference between slower and faster overtaking traffic...
                    Getting back to the idea that it's the mixing of very different
                    speeds into one flow that is bad.

                    In other words, one set of rules for all travellers (peds, bladers,
                    scooters, bikes, and cars et al, and not just "Bicyclists Rights"...

                    Of course, these ideas do fall apart, with the minority out there
                    to naive to respect and acknowledge those around them and the
                    privilege of wheeling around in urban environments.

                    Regards

                    Lock
                  • Alex Farran
                    ... My point is that we need rules to protect the weak from the strong, otherwise might is right always wins. Cyclists and pedestrians are more or less
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
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                      lockhughes writes:

                      > Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one
                      > hand, "motor traffic" is dangerous, and OTOH "cyclists and
                      > pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                      > appropriately for to the circumstances without being told."

                      My point is that we need rules to protect the weak from the strong,
                      otherwise 'might is right' always wins. Cyclists and pedestrians are
                      more or less equal - risky behaviour endangers oneself just as much as
                      anyone else. Good sense and self-preservation should be enough in
                      most circumstances.

                      > My point would be that many divisions have blurred, between
                      > pedestrians and the variety of ways that we humans put wheels under
                      > us to get us around a little faster or a little easier.

                      OK motorized wheelchairs, electric assist scooters, unicycles etc
                      would fit in much the same category as walkers and cyclists. I think
                      you know what I meant by motor traffic.

                      > Utopian OK, but I'd like to see more of a social compact between
                      > travellers. Peds must always rule, but amongst all peds and folks on
                      > wheels, there needs to be a basic agreement respecting our fellow
                      > travellers and moderating our walking and driving behaviours as
                      > circumstances and our immediate surroundings dictate.

                      > In other words, one set of rules for all travellers (peds, bladers,
                      > scooters, bikes, and cars et al, and not just "Bicyclists Rights"...

                      > Of course, these ideas do fall apart, with the minority out there
                      > to naive to respect and acknowledge those around them and the
                      > privilege of wheeling around in urban environments.

                      I agree up to a point. I think the ideas will fall apart in
                      circumstances where the consequences of taking risks are much lower
                      for the person taking the risk than those around them.

                      --

                      __o Alex Farran
                      _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                      (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
                    • Ross or Judy
                      If Kamloops , for example, becomes a carfree city, then speeds of over 80 km/hr will be common place, especially if recumbents become more popular. The same
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 11, 2003
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                        If Kamloops , for example, becomes a carfree city, then speeds of over 80
                        km/hr will be common place, especially if recumbents become more popular.
                        The same for most other cities in the mountains.
                        Ross
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                        To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:30 AM
                        Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad


                        >
                        > Ross said:
                        >
                        > >The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
                        > >need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.
                        >
                        > Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below
                        grade),
                        > grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%,
                        > so there will be no possibility to achieve such speeds.
                        >
                        > I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                        > speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire truck
                        > withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                        > away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                        > one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                        > battery boost.)
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        >
                        > -- ### --
                        >
                        > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                        > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                        >
                        >
                        > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                        > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Matt Hohmeister
                        I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but that s for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it s followed by a 10 km/h
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 15, 2003
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                          I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but
                          that's for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it's
                          followed by a 10 km/h nasty uphill. By the end, I'm sweating like a
                          pig. Let's face it: I do it for the thrill.

                          I feel that an absence of high-speed motor traffic will take away
                          cyclists' urge to "compete" with cars--no more slipping through
                          traffic jams in the cycle lane or passing cars waiting to pass through
                          an all-way stop sign. Also, a cycle-friendly city will bring forth
                          more casual cyclists who otherwise would not ride. We might want to
                          watch the terrain of the city and even have separate speed limits for
                          uphill and downhill bike streets. We could possibly have a speed limit
                          of 30 km/h for downhill and 20 for uphill--and appropriately timed lights.

                          I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                          speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                          would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                          without sweating.

                          By the way, with districts 1 km wide, going 20 km/h means that we will
                          cross a 12,000-population district in 3 minutes--which is pretty dang
                          fast. Try crossing a town of 12,000 with a car in 3 minutes.

                          By the way, here's an unrelated question about noise I just thought of
                          while outside. In a carfree city, we can focus on "small" noise
                          problems like this since the biggest problems--traffic and car
                          alarms--is gone.

                          My apartment building has a separate through-the-wall AC/heat unit for
                          each 48 square meter apartment. Since the "business ends" of these
                          units face the open-air hallway, it makes for a pretty loud [and hot]
                          hallway--walking to my apartment is almost like walking by a row of
                          open ovens. In the dead of night with no traffic, you can hear the
                          collective buzz of 18 AC units from nearly 30 meters away.

                          The local university campus has a central chilled water/steam plant
                          that serves the whole campus--no noisy, buzzing compressors scattered
                          over the place like we find in most areas. Does anyone know if such a
                          plant would be economical in a carfree city, and if our building
                          owners would choose to subscribe to this service to save money over
                          having their own compressors?

                          ~matt

                          > I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                          > speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire
                          truck
                          > withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                          > away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                          > one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                          > battery boost.)
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          >
                          > -- ### --
                          >
                          > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                          > mailbox@c... http://www.carfree.com
                        • J.H. Crawford
                          ... That s mostly how the Dutch bike--petty easy. Out in the countryside on the weekends, you ll come across hordes of spandex-clad cyclists on real racing
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 15, 2003
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                            Matt Hohmeister said:

                            >I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                            >speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                            >would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                            >without sweating.

                            That's mostly how the Dutch bike--petty easy. Out in the countryside
                            on the weekends, you'll come across hordes of spandex-clad cyclists
                            on real racing bikes (and they can sometimes be a little inconsiderate),
                            but on Monday they all seem to disappear into suits (or whatever) and
                            50-year-old clunker bikes. (Nobody who is not certifiably insane would
                            park a good bike on the streets of Amsterdam, even with the best lock
                            ever made.)

                            >By the way, here's an unrelated question about noise I just thought of
                            >while outside. In a carfree city, we can focus on "small" noise
                            >problems like this since the biggest problems--traffic and car
                            >alarms--is gone.

                            Yes, this is an issue that needs serious consideration. There will be
                            a chapter on in it the next book, I'm pretty sure.

                            >The local university campus has a central chilled water/steam plant
                            >that serves the whole campus--no noisy, buzzing compressors scattered
                            >over the place like we find in most areas. Does anyone know if such a
                            >plant would be economical in a carfree city, and if our building
                            >owners would choose to subscribe to this service to save money over
                            >having their own compressors?

                            There will be some losses in the piping, but these are probably offset
                            by higher efficiency components. The "right" solution (assuming you're
                            going to air condition at all) is probably to put large compressors
                            in the basement of a block, with big heat exchangers on the top of
                            the building. The exchangers themselves can be noisy, as they often
                            have big fans, but it is possible to design this equipment so that it
                            is fairly quiet. In theory, window units could be made fairly quiet
                            but never are. I remember that when my parents lived in Manhattan,
                            the roar of the air conditioner units on a hot night would drown out
                            the roar of traffic after midnight.

                            Regards,


                            -- ### --

                            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                          • Michael A Ohene
                            ... Oh really, good for you, dont go over 15mph then. Problem solved. I have done over 55 km/h (actually 34.4mph or 55.7km/h) on flat ground, so I can get a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
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                              > I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but
                              > that's for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it's
                              > followed by a 10 km/h nasty uphill. By the end, I'm sweating like a
                              > pig. Let's face it: I do it for the thrill.

                              Oh really, good for you, dont go over 15mph then. Problem solved.
                              I have done over 55 km/h (actually 34.4mph or 55.7km/h) on flat
                              ground, so I can get a pretty good impression of your physical
                              fitness or your so-called bicycle if you can only do 55km/h down hill.


                              >We could possibly have a speed limit of 30 km/h for downhill and 20
                              >for uphill--and appropriately timed lights.
                              >I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously
                              >enforce speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain,
                              >a cyclist would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than
                              >1 km or so without sweating.

                              Why dont you keep your speed limit for yourself. Most cyclists dont
                              like being restricted because of someone's pie-in-the-sky
                              environmental agenda. People always seem to use the excuse that those
                              lycra people are super athletes and most Americans arent that
                              physically fit. Those slow-roll critics are absolutely correct, those
                              lycra people are athletes with better health than most Americans
                              becasue a lot of them have strict diets and actually exercise (run,
                              swim, cycle, etc) which is something thats hard to do when you eat
                              potato chips, McDonalds, drink coke, and watch TV all day.
                              In America people are just obese, in other countries the majority of
                              the population is not necessarily physically fit.

                              Well,30km/h (18.6mph)for downhill and 20km/h(12mph) for uphill. And
                              what kind of tricycle are you riding Mr. Hohmeister?
                              Only in America would people try to lower the bar for excercise.
                              Or are you one of our international collegues being influenced by our
                              commercials.

                              Michael

                              ### --
                              > >
                              > > J.H. Crawford Carfree
                              Cities
                              > > mailbox@c... http://www.carfree.com
                            • lockhughes
                              ... Not with power-assist Lock E-Legal in Toronto
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 19, 2003
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                                --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Hohmeister"
                                <mdh6214@g...> wrote:
                                > I have a feeling that there will be little need to
                                > vigorously enforce speed limits. With a speed limit of
                                > 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist would be have a hard
                                > time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so without sweating.


                                Not with power-assist <smile>
                                Lock
                                E-Legal in Toronto
                              • fredrikbreivald
                                ... get ... I am assuming skaters include all of the following: inline skate, skateboards, kick scooters and roller skates (if poeple still use those :) Since
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 10, 2003
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                                  > Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they
                                  get
                                  > along with each other?

                                  I am assuming skaters include all of the following: inline skate,
                                  skateboards, kick scooters and roller skates (if poeple still use
                                  those :)

                                  Since they can get up to a pretty good clip and are notoriously hard
                                  to maneuver or stop at speed (at least inline and roller skates), I
                                  think their saftey/nuisance concerns are at least those of a bicycle.
                                  But certainly we should include skate parks in our designs to allow
                                  skaters to "do their thing". Skaters often feel persecuted by
                                  authorities and are often harassed by police. I don't think we want to
                                  create such an atmosphere in our cities, but there should be some
                                  ground rules (similar to, or the same as, those of bicycles).


                                  >Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?

                                  I don't think we should ban them out of hand. If they are limited to
                                  walking speed in pedestrian-prioritized areas, then I don't see a
                                  problem. That would make them similar to electric wheelchairs. I have
                                  only seem one in real life very briefly, but in the demos on TV they
                                  seem to be quite nimble and easy to control. I don't see them as being
                                  particularly dangerous in a pedestrian zone, provided they keep the
                                  speed down of course. It will be interesting to see what usage
                                  patterns emerge (and also pedestrians attitude) if/when they become
                                  more popular.
                                • Bijan Soleymani
                                  ... This isn t why cyclists bike at speeds over 20 km/h. Mostly it s because of the distances they have to cover. This summer I was biking to work, which was
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 28, 2003
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                                    "Matt Hohmeister" <mdh6214@...> writes:

                                    > I feel that an absence of high-speed motor traffic will take away
                                    > cyclists' urge to "compete" with cars

                                    This isn't why cyclists bike at speeds over 20 km/h. Mostly it's
                                    because of the distances they have to cover. This summer I was biking
                                    to work, which was 22 km away. My mom's house is about 30 km away. 200
                                    km/day is a reasonable distance to cover by bike (much more is
                                    possible).

                                    > I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                                    > speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                                    > would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                                    > without sweating.

                                    Most cyclists in decent shape can do 25-30 km/h without much effort.

                                    I don't think this talk about speed limits for bikes is useful. In
                                    dense areas with lots of pedestrians cyclists will slow down naturally
                                    (if a cyclist hits a pedestrian at high speed, the cyclist is going to
                                    get seriously injured). In spread out areas cyclists will go faster.

                                    I live in a pretty dense area with a lot of bicycles and I don't see
                                    this bicycles gunning down pedestrians problem.

                                    Bijan
                                    --
                                    Bijan Soleymani <bijan@...>
                                    http://www.crasseux.com
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