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Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad

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  • Ross or Judy
    ... My suggested change: CYCLISTS SHALL obey traffic laws, whenever those laws are in the best interest of the cyclists safety, otherwise the law shall be
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 8, 2003
      > BICYCLISTS' RIGHTS TRIAD:
      >
      >
      > *************************
      > BICYCLIST'S CODE OF ETHICS -

      My suggested change:

      CYCLISTS SHALL obey traffic laws, whenever those laws are in the best
      interest of the cyclists safety, otherwise the law shall be ignored. Due to
      the disadvantage cyclists have because of lower speeds, less visability and
      being much more vulnerable to injury, cyclists will be allowed to disregard
      laws that have no safety value, such as waiting at red lights when there is
      no oncoming traffic.

      CYCLISTS SHALL always use hand signals for turning or lane changes.


      Ross
    • J.H. Crawford
      Hi All, I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists Rights Triad I would like to simplify the discussion by
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
        Hi All,

        I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion:

        [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad

        I would like to simplify the discussion by simply removing
        cars and trucks from the equation, as in a carfree city.

        What are the conflicts between pedestrians and cyclists,
        skate boarders, and in-liner skaters in a carfree city?
        How do we minimize the number of conflicts that arise?
        How do we resolve them?

        I propose the following traffic rules:

        Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
        Yield to all traffic coming from the right
        Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
        Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
        5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
        Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
        Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
        walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)

        [In a less conservative case, the operator can ride aboard
        the vehicle, with the speed governed to 12 km/hr or so.]

        In _Carfree Cities_ I proposed a 33-meter-wide central boulevard
        that includes a bike freeway with dedicated lanes 6 meters wide,
        as shown in this GIF:

        http://www.carfree.com/blvd-x-section.gif

        Bike lanes are the inner-most (thus fastest) travel lanes, with
        PAV lanes between the bike lanes and the sidewalks
        The two oncoming bike lanes are separated by an island one meter wide
        (maybe more?).
        Pedestrian crossing lights are timed for cyclists at whatever speed
        is desired (suggest 20 km/hr), since the island allows different
        timings in the opposing lanes
        Pedestrians must yield to cyclists when crossing the central boulevard but
        may cross when clear, at any point

        (On bike paths outside the built-up area, I don't see a need for
        any kind of speed limit for bikes, but they need to share the space
        safely with other users, which will include emergency vehicles, to
        which they must yield.)

        Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they get
        along with each other? Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?

        I have also proposed "electric donkeys" (as I then called them), which
        are simply battery-powered or battery-assisted two- and three-wheel
        bicycles, for use by those who were not fit enough to use a normal
        pedal bike. These would have stored energy enough to cross the town
        on one charge (and hopefully a return trip, too). These vehicles are
        now a few years old. I tried one at Bike Station in Long Beach in 2000.
        I thought it was very heavy (maybe 70 pounds) and far more powerful
        than I would have preferred. It had none of the finesse of a bike.
        But, clearly, these vehicles basically exist now and will certainly be
        further refined. I propose to limit them to 20 km/hr (by governor),
        so they are no faster than real bikes, and can therefore share the
        same right of way, and compete, as it were, on an even footing.

        Possibly, slow-speed operation of electric donkeys would be permitted
        in the PAV lanes, for those who prefer a slower pace.

        Thoughts?

        Regards,



        -- ### --

        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • Ross or Judy
        The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills. Ross ... From:
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
          The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
          need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.
          Ross

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
          To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 12:24 AM
          Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad


          >
          > Hi All,
          >
          > I would like to suggest a new focus for this discussion:
          >
          > [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad
          >
          > I would like to simplify the discussion by simply removing
          > cars and trucks from the equation, as in a carfree city.
          >
          > What are the conflicts between pedestrians and cyclists,
          > skate boarders, and in-liner skaters in a carfree city?
          > How do we minimize the number of conflicts that arise?
          > How do we resolve them?
          >
          > I propose the following traffic rules:
          >
          > Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
          > Yield to all traffic coming from the right
          > Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
          > Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
          > 5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
          > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
          > Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
          > walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)
          >
          > [In a less conservative case, the operator can ride aboard
          > the vehicle, with the speed governed to 12 km/hr or so.]
          >
          > In _Carfree Cities_ I proposed a 33-meter-wide central boulevard
          > that includes a bike freeway with dedicated lanes 6 meters wide,
          > as shown in this GIF:
          >
          > http://www.carfree.com/blvd-x-section.gif
          >
          > Bike lanes are the inner-most (thus fastest) travel lanes, with
          > PAV lanes between the bike lanes and the sidewalks
          > The two oncoming bike lanes are separated by an island one meter wide
          > (maybe more?).
          > Pedestrian crossing lights are timed for cyclists at whatever speed
          > is desired (suggest 20 km/hr), since the island allows different
          > timings in the opposing lanes
          > Pedestrians must yield to cyclists when crossing the central boulevard but
          > may cross when clear, at any point
          >
          > (On bike paths outside the built-up area, I don't see a need for
          > any kind of speed limit for bikes, but they need to share the space
          > safely with other users, which will include emergency vehicles, to
          > which they must yield.)
          >
          > Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they get
          > along with each other? Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?
          >
          > I have also proposed "electric donkeys" (as I then called them), which
          > are simply battery-powered or battery-assisted two- and three-wheel
          > bicycles, for use by those who were not fit enough to use a normal
          > pedal bike. These would have stored energy enough to cross the town
          > on one charge (and hopefully a return trip, too). These vehicles are
          > now a few years old. I tried one at Bike Station in Long Beach in 2000.
          > I thought it was very heavy (maybe 70 pounds) and far more powerful
          > than I would have preferred. It had none of the finesse of a bike.
          > But, clearly, these vehicles basically exist now and will certainly be
          > further refined. I propose to limit them to 20 km/hr (by governor),
          > so they are no faster than real bikes, and can therefore share the
          > same right of way, and compete, as it were, on an even footing.
          >
          > Possibly, slow-speed operation of electric donkeys would be permitted
          > in the PAV lanes, for those who prefer a slower pace.
          >
          > Thoughts?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          >
          >
          > -- ### --
          >
          > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
          > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • turpin
          ... Did you mean to write 20 mph? 20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8 kph. A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph, but a good runner will do 20 kph, and many
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
            J. H. Crawford:
            > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit
            > is 20 km/hr .. Thoughts?

            Did you mean to write 20 mph?

            20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8
            kph. A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph,
            but a good runner will do 20 kph, and
            many will exceed that healthily for short
            distances.

            Bicycling on flat ground, 25 kph is a
            pretty pedestrian pace. Most bicyclists
            would chafe under that speed regime.
          • look384
            ... I agree that on all roads except the central boulevard pedestrians should have the right of way, and yielding to all traffic from the right works well. It
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 9, 2003
              > I propose the following traffic rules:
              >
              > Pedestrians have right of way over everyone else
              > Yield to all traffic coming from the right
              > Do not honk; yell if you must (horns/bells not allowed)
              > Cyclists will be expected to dismount in streets narrower than
              > 5 meters and ride at a jog in streets 5-8 meters wide
              > Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit is 20 km/hr
              > Power-assisted vehicle (PAV) operate at the speed of the
              > walking operator controlling a tow arm (say, 5 km/hr)
              >
              I agree that on all roads except the central boulevard pedestrians
              should have the right of way, and yielding to all traffic from the
              right works well. It eliminates the need for controlled
              intersections and is an easy traffic rule to learn.

              I'm not sure I'm sold on the restrictions for bicyles on roads less
              than 5 meters. I live on a road close to 5 m (in Germany), and ride
              a bicycle on that road without an problem daily. The speed is
              naturally slow, but probably closer to 25 kph than 20 kph. There
              usually aren't pedestrians on the road at the same time I'm on it,
              but when there are, my speed drops to a pedestrian pace and warnings
              are given at conversation-level. I don't know how to make a law that
              enforces that behavior, and as seen in other German towns cyclists
              can become a nusance in heavily pedestrianed areas. Given that few
              roads will be narrower than 5 m, maybe walking isn't bad, or
              enforcing a 10 kph speed on streets narrower than 5 m and walking
              when heavily trafficked by pedestrians.

              All other speed limits are reasonable, as I understand them. 20 kph
              on roads 5-8 meters wide (although I prefer 25 kph as suggested by
              someone else) and I assume no speed limit for bicycles in the central
              boulevard.

              Kevin
            • J.H. Crawford
              Hi All, ... No, I meant 20 km/hr. ... That is exceptionally fast. Standard walking speed is normally taken as 250 ft/minute, or about 4.5 km/hr. ... I would
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
                Hi All,

                Turpin said:

                >> Human powered vehicle (HPV) speed limit
                >> is 20 km/hr .. Thoughts?
                >
                >Did you mean to write 20 mph?

                No, I meant 20 km/hr.

                >20 kph is way too slow. I walk at 7 to 8
                >kph.

                That is exceptionally fast. "Standard walking speed" is normally
                taken as 250 ft/minute, or about 4.5 km/hr.

                >A typical jogger goes 10 to 12 kph,
                >but a good runner will do 20 kph, and
                >many will exceed that healthily for short
                >distances.

                I would venture to say that less than 1% of the population can
                achieve, even momentarily, 20 km/hr on foot.

                >Bicycling on flat ground, 25 kph is a
                >pretty pedestrian pace. Most bicyclists
                >would chafe under that speed regime.

                A few bicyclists, many of whom are members of this list, would chafe
                under that restriction. If you observe the speed of the average
                Dutch cyclist, it's probably less than 20 km/hr. I'm not an especially
                fit cyclist and ride a touring bike (with upright bars, so I can see).
                I pass most Dutch cyclists yet I'm only going about 20 km/hr, I think.
                I grant that 40 km/hr is possible for a cyclist in good condition on
                good roads with a top-class bike, but these are not the conditions for
                which we must design. (High speeds are possible outside the built-up
                area, but I think cycling at speeds over 20 km/hr poses excessive risk
                to other street users, even on the central boulevard.)

                One point about the central boulevard is that I think it has to have
                traffic lights, to allow pedestrians to cross. This means that the
                lights are either timed, for some particular speed, or that a whole
                stretch of lights cycles simultaneously, which means, in practice,
                that you're going to have to stop for a light about once a minute.
                (Maybe something can be worked out for semi-timed block operations,
                which might conceiveable get the stop-frequency down to once every
                two minutes while never forcing a pedestrian to wait more than one
                minute to cross, which I think is the upper limit of what people
                will accept.)

                -------------------------

                Kevin said:

                >I'm not sure I'm sold on the restrictions for bicyles on roads less
                >than 5 meters.

                I'm talking about a city street, not a rural road. I'm expecting
                there to be heavy foot traffic in these streets (and kids playing
                ball, neighbors playing cards, etc.), so there is simply not room
                for anyone to cycle at any speed. (I'll grant that if cyclists are
                will to slow way down, they can mix safely in these conditions,
                until the level of foot traffic gets pretty high.)

                >All other speed limits are reasonable, as I understand them. 20 kph
                >on roads 5-8 meters wide (although I prefer 25 kph as suggested by
                >someone else) and I assume no speed limit for bicycles in the central
                >boulevard.

                As noted above, the lights have to be timed at some speed or other,
                and this needs to be a speed that your average granny can reach,
                or nearly so, as otherwise she will be having to stop at almost
                every light.



                I posed this issue because I know it is actually a contentious one,
                and I have conflicting feelings about it myself. I'd love it if
                someone could simulate foot and bike traffic over the central boulevard,
                so we can see what we're trying to deal with. I think that, at least
                during rush hour, there would be pretty heavy traffic on the central
                boulevard. Many streets here in Amsterdam have pretty heavy bike
                traffic at times, and it certainly can make crossing the street a
                challenge.

                Regards,











                -- ### --

                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
              • J.H. Crawford
                ... Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below grade), grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%, so
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
                  Ross said:

                  >The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
                  >need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.

                  Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below grade),
                  grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%,
                  so there will be no possibility to achieve such speeds.

                  I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                  speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire truck
                  withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                  away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                  one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                  battery boost.)

                  Regards,


                  -- ### --

                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                • Alex Farran
                  I think there are too many rules. We need rules and traffic lights and dedicated lanes to control dangerous motor traffic. As a cyclist I no more want to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
                    I think there are too many rules. We need rules and traffic lights
                    and dedicated lanes to control dangerous motor traffic. As a cyclist
                    I no more want to come off my bike than a pedestrian wants to be hit,
                    and it's 50/50 who'll come off worse. I reckon cyclists and
                    pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave appropriately
                    for to the circumstances without being told.

                    --

                    __o Alex Farran
                    _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                    (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
                  • lockhughes
                    ... Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one hand, motor traffic is dangerous, and OTOH cyclists and pedestrians can adapt to each others
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
                      --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Alex Farran <alex@a...> wrote:
                      > I think there are too many rules. We need rules and
                      > traffic lights and dedicated lanes to control dangerous
                      > motor traffic. As a cyclist I no more want to come off
                      > my bike than a pedestrian wants to be hit, and it's
                      > 50/50 who'll come off worse. I reckon cyclists and
                      > pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                      > appropriately for to the circumstances without being told.
                      > __o Alex Farran
                      > _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                      > (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com

                      Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one
                      hand, "motor traffic" is dangerous, and OTOH "cyclists and
                      pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                      appropriately for to the circumstances without being told."

                      Other than the obvious differences of weight and top speeds of
                      larger motorized vehicles (cars and up) compared to everything
                      lighter (like a ped or a bike), it all comes down to behaviour?

                      Our traditional approach to regulation is to classify and register
                      and to regulate vehicles and operators.

                      My motor vehicle weighs 50lbs, doesn't go as fast as many folks on
                      bicycles, and I believe it is safer for me and those around me than a
                      bicycle. And it has great brakes.

                      My point would be that many divisions have blurred, between
                      pedestrians and the variety of ways that we humans put wheels under
                      us to get us around a little faster or a little easier.

                      Utopian OK, but I'd like to see more of a social compact between
                      travellers. Peds must always rule, but amongst all peds and folks on
                      wheels, there needs to be a basic agreement respecting our fellow
                      travellers and moderating our walking and driving behaviours as
                      circumstances and our immediate surroundings dictate.

                      Because I ride a motorized vehicle which most folks are unfamiliar
                      with (a kick scooter that has two batteries onboard), I slow down as
                      necessary so that peds et al are not nervous at my approach and
                      passing by. Because I have a power-assist onboard, I can easily
                      accelerate back up to speed, so little time is lost in slowing down
                      around peds and blind corners and intersections etc etc.

                      Other than setting top speeds (and I don't wish to go THERE <smile>,
                      if I were King I would dictate that speeds be reduced to withing 2-
                      3kph difference between slower and faster overtaking traffic...
                      Getting back to the idea that it's the mixing of very different
                      speeds into one flow that is bad.

                      In other words, one set of rules for all travellers (peds, bladers,
                      scooters, bikes, and cars et al, and not just "Bicyclists Rights"...

                      Of course, these ideas do fall apart, with the minority out there
                      to naive to respect and acknowledge those around them and the
                      privilege of wheeling around in urban environments.

                      Regards

                      Lock
                    • Alex Farran
                      ... My point is that we need rules to protect the weak from the strong, otherwise might is right always wins. Cyclists and pedestrians are more or less
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 10, 2003
                        lockhughes writes:

                        > Nice Alex. But I find this a bit contradictory. On the one
                        > hand, "motor traffic" is dangerous, and OTOH "cyclists and
                        > pedestrians can adapt to each others presence and behave
                        > appropriately for to the circumstances without being told."

                        My point is that we need rules to protect the weak from the strong,
                        otherwise 'might is right' always wins. Cyclists and pedestrians are
                        more or less equal - risky behaviour endangers oneself just as much as
                        anyone else. Good sense and self-preservation should be enough in
                        most circumstances.

                        > My point would be that many divisions have blurred, between
                        > pedestrians and the variety of ways that we humans put wheels under
                        > us to get us around a little faster or a little easier.

                        OK motorized wheelchairs, electric assist scooters, unicycles etc
                        would fit in much the same category as walkers and cyclists. I think
                        you know what I meant by motor traffic.

                        > Utopian OK, but I'd like to see more of a social compact between
                        > travellers. Peds must always rule, but amongst all peds and folks on
                        > wheels, there needs to be a basic agreement respecting our fellow
                        > travellers and moderating our walking and driving behaviours as
                        > circumstances and our immediate surroundings dictate.

                        > In other words, one set of rules for all travellers (peds, bladers,
                        > scooters, bikes, and cars et al, and not just "Bicyclists Rights"...

                        > Of course, these ideas do fall apart, with the minority out there
                        > to naive to respect and acknowledge those around them and the
                        > privilege of wheeling around in urban environments.

                        I agree up to a point. I think the ideas will fall apart in
                        circumstances where the consequences of taking risks are much lower
                        for the person taking the risk than those around them.

                        --

                        __o Alex Farran
                        _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
                        (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
                      • Ross or Judy
                        If Kamloops , for example, becomes a carfree city, then speeds of over 80 km/hr will be common place, especially if recumbents become more popular. The same
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 11, 2003
                          If Kamloops , for example, becomes a carfree city, then speeds of over 80
                          km/hr will be common place, especially if recumbents become more popular.
                          The same for most other cities in the mountains.
                          Ross
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                          To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:30 AM
                          Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Proposed Bicyclists' Rights Triad


                          >
                          > Ross said:
                          >
                          > >The speeds that you suggest will often be way too slow. Speed limits will
                          > >need to vary from 3km/hr in malls to 80km/hr on the freeway downhills.
                          >
                          > Actually, because rail systems need to use the freeway route (below
                          grade),
                          > grades must be limited, ideally to 1 or 2%, certainly not more than 5%,
                          > so there will be no possibility to achieve such speeds.
                          >
                          > I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                          > speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire truck
                          > withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                          > away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                          > one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                          > battery boost.)
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          >
                          > -- ### --
                          >
                          > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                          > mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                          >
                          >
                          > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                          > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Matt Hohmeister
                          I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but that s for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it s followed by a 10 km/h
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 15, 2003
                            I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but
                            that's for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it's
                            followed by a 10 km/h nasty uphill. By the end, I'm sweating like a
                            pig. Let's face it: I do it for the thrill.

                            I feel that an absence of high-speed motor traffic will take away
                            cyclists' urge to "compete" with cars--no more slipping through
                            traffic jams in the cycle lane or passing cars waiting to pass through
                            an all-way stop sign. Also, a cycle-friendly city will bring forth
                            more casual cyclists who otherwise would not ride. We might want to
                            watch the terrain of the city and even have separate speed limits for
                            uphill and downhill bike streets. We could possibly have a speed limit
                            of 30 km/h for downhill and 20 for uphill--and appropriately timed lights.

                            I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                            speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                            would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                            without sweating.

                            By the way, with districts 1 km wide, going 20 km/h means that we will
                            cross a 12,000-population district in 3 minutes--which is pretty dang
                            fast. Try crossing a town of 12,000 with a car in 3 minutes.

                            By the way, here's an unrelated question about noise I just thought of
                            while outside. In a carfree city, we can focus on "small" noise
                            problems like this since the biggest problems--traffic and car
                            alarms--is gone.

                            My apartment building has a separate through-the-wall AC/heat unit for
                            each 48 square meter apartment. Since the "business ends" of these
                            units face the open-air hallway, it makes for a pretty loud [and hot]
                            hallway--walking to my apartment is almost like walking by a row of
                            open ovens. In the dead of night with no traffic, you can hear the
                            collective buzz of 18 AC units from nearly 30 meters away.

                            The local university campus has a central chilled water/steam plant
                            that serves the whole campus--no noisy, buzzing compressors scattered
                            over the place like we find in most areas. Does anyone know if such a
                            plant would be economical in a carfree city, and if our building
                            owners would choose to subscribe to this service to save money over
                            having their own compressors?

                            ~matt

                            > I do not believe that any vehicle should ever operate on city streets at
                            > speeds anywhere close to 80 km/hr, unless it's an ambulance or fire
                            truck
                            > withh its siren on. (Cops should be local, so never more than 2500 feet
                            > away, and mounted on bikes, so they should be at the scene in about
                            > one minute, no matter what, at speeds not exceeding 50 km/hr even with
                            > battery boost.)
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            >
                            >
                            > -- ### --
                            >
                            > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                            > mailbox@c... http://www.carfree.com
                          • J.H. Crawford
                            ... That s mostly how the Dutch bike--petty easy. Out in the countryside on the weekends, you ll come across hordes of spandex-clad cyclists on real racing
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 15, 2003
                              Matt Hohmeister said:

                              >I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                              >speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                              >would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                              >without sweating.

                              That's mostly how the Dutch bike--petty easy. Out in the countryside
                              on the weekends, you'll come across hordes of spandex-clad cyclists
                              on real racing bikes (and they can sometimes be a little inconsiderate),
                              but on Monday they all seem to disappear into suits (or whatever) and
                              50-year-old clunker bikes. (Nobody who is not certifiably insane would
                              park a good bike on the streets of Amsterdam, even with the best lock
                              ever made.)

                              >By the way, here's an unrelated question about noise I just thought of
                              >while outside. In a carfree city, we can focus on "small" noise
                              >problems like this since the biggest problems--traffic and car
                              >alarms--is gone.

                              Yes, this is an issue that needs serious consideration. There will be
                              a chapter on in it the next book, I'm pretty sure.

                              >The local university campus has a central chilled water/steam plant
                              >that serves the whole campus--no noisy, buzzing compressors scattered
                              >over the place like we find in most areas. Does anyone know if such a
                              >plant would be economical in a carfree city, and if our building
                              >owners would choose to subscribe to this service to save money over
                              >having their own compressors?

                              There will be some losses in the piping, but these are probably offset
                              by higher efficiency components. The "right" solution (assuming you're
                              going to air condition at all) is probably to put large compressors
                              in the basement of a block, with big heat exchangers on the top of
                              the building. The exchangers themselves can be noisy, as they often
                              have big fans, but it is possible to design this equipment so that it
                              is fairly quiet. In theory, window units could be made fairly quiet
                              but never are. I remember that when my parents lived in Manhattan,
                              the roar of the air conditioner units on a hot night would drown out
                              the roar of traffic after midnight.

                              Regards,


                              -- ### --

                              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                            • Michael A Ohene
                              ... Oh really, good for you, dont go over 15mph then. Problem solved. I have done over 55 km/h (actually 34.4mph or 55.7km/h) on flat ground, so I can get a
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
                                > I have been known, on occasion, to get my bicycle up to 55 km/h, but
                                > that's for about 20 seconds on a pretty steep downhill--and it's
                                > followed by a 10 km/h nasty uphill. By the end, I'm sweating like a
                                > pig. Let's face it: I do it for the thrill.

                                Oh really, good for you, dont go over 15mph then. Problem solved.
                                I have done over 55 km/h (actually 34.4mph or 55.7km/h) on flat
                                ground, so I can get a pretty good impression of your physical
                                fitness or your so-called bicycle if you can only do 55km/h down hill.


                                >We could possibly have a speed limit of 30 km/h for downhill and 20
                                >for uphill--and appropriately timed lights.
                                >I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously
                                >enforce speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain,
                                >a cyclist would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than
                                >1 km or so without sweating.

                                Why dont you keep your speed limit for yourself. Most cyclists dont
                                like being restricted because of someone's pie-in-the-sky
                                environmental agenda. People always seem to use the excuse that those
                                lycra people are super athletes and most Americans arent that
                                physically fit. Those slow-roll critics are absolutely correct, those
                                lycra people are athletes with better health than most Americans
                                becasue a lot of them have strict diets and actually exercise (run,
                                swim, cycle, etc) which is something thats hard to do when you eat
                                potato chips, McDonalds, drink coke, and watch TV all day.
                                In America people are just obese, in other countries the majority of
                                the population is not necessarily physically fit.

                                Well,30km/h (18.6mph)for downhill and 20km/h(12mph) for uphill. And
                                what kind of tricycle are you riding Mr. Hohmeister?
                                Only in America would people try to lower the bar for excercise.
                                Or are you one of our international collegues being influenced by our
                                commercials.

                                Michael

                                ### --
                                > >
                                > > J.H. Crawford Carfree
                                Cities
                                > > mailbox@c... http://www.carfree.com
                              • lockhughes
                                ... Not with power-assist Lock E-Legal in Toronto
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 19, 2003
                                  --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Hohmeister"
                                  <mdh6214@g...> wrote:
                                  > I have a feeling that there will be little need to
                                  > vigorously enforce speed limits. With a speed limit of
                                  > 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist would be have a hard
                                  > time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so without sweating.


                                  Not with power-assist <smile>
                                  Lock
                                  E-Legal in Toronto
                                • fredrikbreivald
                                  ... get ... I am assuming skaters include all of the following: inline skate, skateboards, kick scooters and roller skates (if poeple still use those :) Since
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 10, 2003
                                    > Can we do anything other than treat skaters as cyclists? Can they
                                    get
                                    > along with each other?

                                    I am assuming skaters include all of the following: inline skate,
                                    skateboards, kick scooters and roller skates (if poeple still use
                                    those :)

                                    Since they can get up to a pretty good clip and are notoriously hard
                                    to maneuver or stop at speed (at least inline and roller skates), I
                                    think their saftey/nuisance concerns are at least those of a bicycle.
                                    But certainly we should include skate parks in our designs to allow
                                    skaters to "do their thing". Skaters often feel persecuted by
                                    authorities and are often harassed by police. I don't think we want to
                                    create such an atmosphere in our cities, but there should be some
                                    ground rules (similar to, or the same as, those of bicycles).


                                    >Is the Segway banned as too dangerous?

                                    I don't think we should ban them out of hand. If they are limited to
                                    walking speed in pedestrian-prioritized areas, then I don't see a
                                    problem. That would make them similar to electric wheelchairs. I have
                                    only seem one in real life very briefly, but in the demos on TV they
                                    seem to be quite nimble and easy to control. I don't see them as being
                                    particularly dangerous in a pedestrian zone, provided they keep the
                                    speed down of course. It will be interesting to see what usage
                                    patterns emerge (and also pedestrians attitude) if/when they become
                                    more popular.
                                  • Bijan Soleymani
                                    ... This isn t why cyclists bike at speeds over 20 km/h. Mostly it s because of the distances they have to cover. This summer I was biking to work, which was
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Nov 28, 2003
                                      "Matt Hohmeister" <mdh6214@...> writes:

                                      > I feel that an absence of high-speed motor traffic will take away
                                      > cyclists' urge to "compete" with cars

                                      This isn't why cyclists bike at speeds over 20 km/h. Mostly it's
                                      because of the distances they have to cover. This summer I was biking
                                      to work, which was 22 km away. My mom's house is about 30 km away. 200
                                      km/day is a reasonable distance to cover by bike (much more is
                                      possible).

                                      > I have a feeling that there will be little need to vigorously enforce
                                      > speed limits. With a speed limit of 20 km/h on flat terrain, a cyclist
                                      > would be have a hard time exceeding 25 km/h for more than 1 km or so
                                      > without sweating.

                                      Most cyclists in decent shape can do 25-30 km/h without much effort.

                                      I don't think this talk about speed limits for bikes is useful. In
                                      dense areas with lots of pedestrians cyclists will slow down naturally
                                      (if a cyclist hits a pedestrian at high speed, the cyclist is going to
                                      get seriously injured). In spread out areas cyclists will go faster.

                                      I live in a pretty dense area with a lot of bicycles and I don't see
                                      this bicycles gunning down pedestrians problem.

                                      Bijan
                                      --
                                      Bijan Soleymani <bijan@...>
                                      http://www.crasseux.com
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