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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Talking Points: The huge subsudy for driving

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  • mtneuman@juno.com
    These things are true, too. Sidewalks are generally unsafe for bicyclists to be riding on, since cars backing out of their drive-ways seldom see them coming.
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 3, 2003
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      These things are true, too. Sidewalks are generally unsafe for
      bicyclists to be riding on, since cars backing out of their drive-ways
      seldom see them coming. Streets are better, as long as speeds of motor
      vehicles driving them are not too great and room for both exists.

      One thing your uncle and Jerome's friend misses is that people who don't
      drive still pay fuel taxes to some extent. They pay them in the form of
      "add ons" to the price of food and things that they buy that are
      delivered by truck. The trucks have to pay the fuel taxes, so their
      charges for hauling the goods has to cover those costs (or they'll go
      belly under). In the end, the consumer pays for the cost of delivery,
      which includes the tax on the fuel used to ship the goods.

      Mike

      On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:39:33 -0400 "Louis-Luc" <exqmtl@...>
      writes:
      > Furthermore, cyclists do not damage the road when
      > using it (as do cars, and even more SUVs). And motor
      > vehicles are more a threat to life quality notonly
      > on the roads, but around them, with their nuisance
      > to the environment and public safety. Before the
      > invasion of cars, people had much more space available
      > as public, and were not stressed by traffic when
      > walking.
      >
      > My uncle also made me that surprizing remark that
      > cyclists do not deserve a full road access. I told
      > him that he was wrong totally. That's surprising,
      > because my uncle walks and cycles a lot (but also
      > drives) and is for full pedestrian rights on sidewalks
      > (as I am), but wants to confine cycling to bicycle
      > paths...
      > The fear I have about bicycle paths is that drivers
      > may wrongly think cyclists don't have the full access
      > to the road as well. Bicycles are vehicles, and I'm
      > in favor of giving them full road space, but not
      > sidewalks. Sidewalks are for walking not vehicles.
      > We have so little space for walking, so until we get
      > more, we have to keep what we have.
      >
      > Louis-Luc
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: dubluth [mailto:dubluth@...]
      > > Sent: 3 septembre, 2003 22:21
      > > To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: Talking Points: The huge subsudy for
      > > driving
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Coast 2 Coast"
      > > <coast2coast2@h...> wrote:
      > > > Hi All from Jerome in Tucson, Arizona, USA.
      > > <SNIP>
      > > >
      > > > Then out of nowhere came the following comment from one of my
      > > > interlocuters:
      > > >
      > > > "I think we cyclists need to move over and give priority to the
      > > > motorists, since they're the ones who are paying for the roads
      > > > with their fuel taxes, unlike us, who are riding for free..."
      > > >
      > > > Needless to say, I was dumbfounded by this remark, such that I
      > > > didn't even know what to say.
      > >
      > > <SNIP>
      > >
      > > We have as much legal entitlement to use the public road as anyone
      > > regardless of whether we contribute to its upkeep or not. Anyone
      > can
      > > legally suck oxygen out of the air regardless of whether they are
      > > doing anything to support its regeneration (or harming oxygen
      > > regeneration, for that matter).
      > >
      > > We may act to the full extent of what is legal or we may curb or
      > > activities if we feel that is what fairness dictates. Your
      > > interlocuters felt it fair to give cars and trucks the priority
      > since
      > > motorists pay more into road upkeep.
      > >
      > > I'm not compelled to cede any of my rights as a bicyclist, when
      > > automobiles are spewing pollutants and causing much more
      > uncompensated
      > > harm.
      > >
      > > One subsidy which may not be mentioned at vtpi is the tax
      > write-off
      > > small businesses can caim on the purchase of gas-guzzling SUVs.
      > > Drivers and non-drivers alike who pay income taxes will be making
      > up
      > > for the budget shortfall expanded by this give-away. You can be
      > sure
      > > that the people who took advantage of this windfall aren't getting
      > off
      > > the road when they see a less subsidized vehicle wanting to use
      > the
      > > same road space.
      > >
      > > Bill Carr
      > >
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      > > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >


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    • Andie Miller
      There s an interesting paper by Phillip Goff with a section on The subsidizing of the American motorist, at
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 5, 2003
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        There's an interesting paper by Phillip Goff with a section on 'The
        subsidizing of the American motorist,' at
        http://www.monoculartimes.co.uk/texts/architexts/carculture_1.shtml

        The stats may be a little dated (published September 1997), but an
        interesting overview. This always makes an impression on me:

        "Ample cheap and free parking is a significant way in which motorists are
        subsidized. Real estate values in urban areas are costly, yet motorist are
        allowed to use up to 100 square feet of public space for the storage of
        their vehicles. What reserves the side of the street to be used for the sole
        purpose of parking cars? Could one use the space for storage instead? To put
        a trampoline, maybe? Could one open up a futon in a parking space and sleep
        overnight? What privileges car owners to eat up such valuable urban space,
        when others pay hundreds of dollars for apartments hardly bigger than a
        parking space?"
      • dubluth
        Another reason not to move to the side for motorists benefit is that cagers shouldn t be deprived an education in the legal and proper use of the road. I ve
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 7, 2003
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          Another reason not to move to the side for motorists benefit is that
          cagers shouldn't be deprived an education in the legal and proper use
          of the road. I've read somewhere that in cities with significant
          bicycle traffic, motorists demonstrate better road sharing skills than
          their counterparts in bicycle bereft cities.

          If, as a result of familiarity, automobiles become better operated
          with regard to bicycle traffic, more bicycles may take to the road.
          The person whose sympathies lie with the motorist may think that more
          bicycles would be awful. However, more bicycles instead of more cars
          competing for parking spaces and road space might be a better deal for
          the motorist. If some of those people in their single occupancy
          automobiles had taken a bike, some gas tax hikes to pay for costly
          road expansions would have been avoided.

          The "free" parking (street and retail) provided to motorists comes at
          tremendous costs. Part of that is paid by people who don't own,
          operate, or benefit from automobiles.

          I feel there is a strong safety argument against giving automobiles
          priority. It feels unsafe to me when a car or truck passes within
          inches at speeds approaching or in excess of 40mph. When this happens
          I invariably move away from the curb to the center of the lane to
          unequivicably claim the full lane since I am reminded that a few
          people don't yet know that bicycles ARE a part of traffic.

          Bill Carr
        • Alex Farran
          ... Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other cars pulling out
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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            dubluth writes:

            > I feel there is a strong safety argument against giving automobiles
            > priority. It feels unsafe to me when a car or truck passes within
            > inches at speeds approaching or in excess of 40mph. When this
            > happens I invariably move away from the curb to the center of the
            > lane to unequivicably claim the full lane since I am reminded that a
            > few people don't yet know that bicycles ARE a part of traffic.

            Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible
            in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other
            cars pulling out for something.

            --

            __o Alex Farran
            _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
            (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
          • dubluth
            In a city used for multiple modes of travel, and that would include a carfree city which gives priority to pedestrians, people would learn to see one another
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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              In a city used for multiple modes of travel, and that would include a
              carfree city which gives priority to pedestrians, people would learn
              to see one another and their vehicles.

              "I didn't see him" seems to be the inevitable response when a motorist
              is called on for intruding into a bicyclist's space. Strangly, the
              driver seems to think this puts any blame on the bicyclist, who is
              implied to be invisible. All licensing jurisdictions require
              motorists to pass a vision test -- a fact that reinforces the idea
              that people have an obligation to use their good eyes when operating a
              car or truck.

              I'm warry of lending support to the claim that bicycles driven in
              daylight or at night with proper lights are ever invisible. Curb
              huggers aren't making themselves as obvious as they may need to be.
              However, automobile drivers shouldn't be given a pass for missing what
              is in plain view.

              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Alex Farran <alex@a...> wrote:
              > Another benefit of not hugging the kerb is that you are more visible
              > in heavy traffic. The cars may not see you, but they will see other
              > cars pulling out for something.
              >
              > --
              >
              > __o Alex Farran
              > _`\<,_ Analyst / Programmer
              > (_)/ (_) www.alexfarran.com
            • turpin
              ... Amen! Paying attention is the first obligation of anyone operating a car or truck. ... That, however, brings up the unfortunate fact that many bicyclists
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 9, 2003
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                "dubluth" <dubluth@y...> wrote:
                > All licensing jurisdictions require
                > motorists to pass a vision test --
                > a fact that reinforces the idea
                > that people have an obligation to
                > use their good eyes when operating
                > a car or truck.

                Amen!

                Paying attention is the first
                obligation of anyone operating a car
                or truck.

                > I'm warry of lending support to
                > the claim that bicycles driven in
                > daylight or at night with proper
                > lights are ever invisible. ..

                That, however, brings up the
                unfortunate fact that many bicyclists
                at night are NOT properly lighted.
                A bicyclist without good reflectors
                or light, and often wearing dark
                clothes, can seem to appear out of
                nowhere. I've never had a close call,
                between me driving and someone else
                bicycling, because I do keep my eyes
                on the road when driving, and give
                bicyclists their safe distance. But
                I have noticed many bicyclists at
                night, with no reflector or light,
                who would have been very easy not to
                notice until too late.

                When I bicycled at night, I always
                wore yellow reflective leg bands,
                and turned on two lights, a white
                headlight and a red strobe light in
                rear. I may have looked a bit like a
                brightly lighted clown. But I wanted
                to be seen. And in the unfortunate
                happenstance that some idiot ran me
                down anyway, I wanted my heirs'
                lawyer to be able to put up a
                picture of me brightly lit up, as he
                asked the idiot who ran me down,
                "THIS is what you failed to see?!?"
                ;-)

                Seriously, if you bike at night,
                take some effort to make yourself
                visible. And even in bright day,
                watch out for the idiots who are
                driving a car without paying
                attention.
              • lockhughes
                ... I have driven a scooter over a couple of hundred km s of *empty* suburban sidewalks since March. By empty I mean pedestrian counts of maybe a dozen an
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                  > The fear I have about bicycle paths is that drivers
                  > may wrongly think cyclists don't have the full access
                  > to the road as well. Bicycles are vehicles, and I'm
                  > in favor of giving them full road space, but not
                  > sidewalks. Sidewalks are for walking not vehicles.
                  > We have so little space for walking, so until we get
                  > more, we have to keep what we have.

                  I have driven a scooter over a couple of hundred km's of *empty*
                  suburban sidewalks since March. By "empty" I mean pedestrian counts
                  of maybe a dozen an hour. Less than 1% of these folk have objected to
                  me or given any signs of displeasure as I go by. The vast majority
                  of comments (about my vehicle) are always very positive.

                  So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                  eg
                  rollerblades?
                  rollerskis?
                  rollerskates?
                  skateboards?
                  scooters?
                  bicycles?
                  tricycles?
                  mobility scooters?
                  motorized luggage carts?


                  Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
                  car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
                  (link to twike:)
                  <http://twike.cjb.net/>

                  Is the Panasonic folder a bicycle?
                  (link to folder:)
                  http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/panasonic.htm

                  How will we know when our city is "car free"?

                  Lock
                • autofrei-wohnen.de
                  Hi Lock, ... For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                    Hi Lock,
                    you asked:

                    | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                    | eg
                    | rollerblades?
                    | rollerskis?
                    | rollerskates?
                    | skateboards?
                    | scooters?
                    | bicycles?
                    | tricycles?
                    | mobility scooters?
                    | motorized luggage carts?

                    For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking, the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children, but they have to be teached to pass very slow !

                    In Germany and other countries exist different possibilties of street-use like
                    - "bicycle-street" ("Fahrradstrasse"), means: ciyclist are privileged, and only cars of street`s inhabitants are allowed
                    - "play-street" ("Spielstrasse"), means: playing children are privileged, and cars have to drive VERY slow (speed of pedestrians)
                    - "youth-street" ("Jugendstrasse"), means: the street is closed for cars and filled up with installations to play and do sport activities, see Berlin`s new example www.jugendstrasse-berlin.de (german only)
                    - "traffic-reduced commercial-area" ("verkehrsberuhigter Geschaeftsbereich"), means: speed of e.g. 10 km/h with other rules in the special case
                    - "flaneur-zone" ("Flanierzone", developped in Burgdorf, CH), or new official term: "meeting-zone" ("Begegnungszone") (new case in Switzerland`s Building Law Code, in case of interest I can fax the related law paper, I have only the german version), means pedestrians are privileged and can use the whole street space; maximum speed 20 km/h
                    - "30 km/h-zone" ("Tempo 30 Zone"), means maximum speed of 30 km/h
                    up to
                    - "pedestrian zone" ("Fussgaengerzone"), means: I hope you all know this very well.

                    ... so for every situation there is an instrumentarium for the best solution. Our goal should be the implementation of more of these solutions in the public consciousness and urban reality.

                    I don`t like the (direction of this) subtle discussion about permissions for the use of sidewalks.
                    In general, I wish there would be more discussion in this newsgroup about new carfree areas or carfree action (like these days) in our environment, more reports and exchange of experiences.
                    **********************
                    | Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
                    | car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
                    | (link to twike:)
                    | <http://twike.cjb.net/>

                    I know one of the owners of a Twike in Berlin: He classifies it as a Car.

                    Any vehicle is a car, if it has the usual size of cars, is faster than pedestrians and needs non-human energy. The problem with them is not only its pollution and noise, but also the big consumption of space (that can be used much better and makes housing more expensive than it could be) and the danger of its speed for people on the streets (last point see together with the problem of hard metal against human flesh).
                    Isn`t this clear enough ?
                    **********************
                    | How will we know when our city is "car free"?

                    If you see there no cars during most of the day- and nighttime. Usually in our pedestrian areas are special & short time-zones for commercial & private delivery and inhabitants (only if they have a garage in the zone). A good example is the innercity of Freiburg in Germany. Read this english article about:
                    "Freiburg's green transport policies are central to the city's development, reports Rolf Böhme"
                    http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/121/bohme.html

                    The definition of "carfree" says: if you have only 0.1-0.2 parking places per dwelling and no traffic in the related area, except some serious exceptions ("blue-light"-traffic, delivery, handicapts).
                    If you have more you can call it "low car housing" and "traffic-reduced", and there are more other terms for it.
                    See more about carfree definitions:
                    http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/Definition.html (sorry, still german only)

                    More links about worldwide carfree vacation destinations and carfree initatives & projects:
                    http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/projects.html (Introduction page of the related chapter in English)

                    best,
                    Markus Heller, Berlin
                    http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html (Introduction page in English)



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mtneuman@juno.com
                    We have a state law in Wisconsin that requires that if a bicyclist rides by (passes) a pedestrian on a bicycle path or a sidewalk (if local govt. allows riding
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                      We have a state law in Wisconsin that requires that if a bicyclist rides
                      by (passes) a pedestrian on a bicycle path or a sidewalk (if local govt.
                      allows riding on the sidewalks), that the bicyclist must first make an
                      "audible" when he/she approaches to pass, so that the pedestrian or
                      bicyclist is aware that a bicyclist is going to pass by. The audible is
                      usually: "bicycle passing on your left".

                      Mike

                      On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:19:45 +0200 "autofrei-wohnen.de"
                      <info@...> writes:
                      > Hi Lock,
                      > you asked:
                      >
                      > | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                      > | eg
                      > | rollerblades?
                      > | rollerskis?
                      > | rollerskates?
                      > | skateboards?
                      > | scooters?
                      > | bicycles?
                      > | tricycles?
                      > | mobility scooters?
                      > | motorized luggage carts?
                      >
                      > For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if
                      > possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the
                      > shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher
                      > speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking,
                      > the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than
                      > pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children,
                      > but they have to be teached to pass very slow !
                      >
                      > In Germany and other countries exist different possibilties of
                      > street-use like
                      > - "bicycle-street" ("Fahrradstrasse"), means: ciyclist are
                      > privileged, and only cars of street`s inhabitants are allowed
                      > - "play-street" ("Spielstrasse"), means: playing children are
                      > privileged, and cars have to drive VERY slow (speed of pedestrians)
                      > - "youth-street" ("Jugendstrasse"), means: the street is closed for
                      > cars and filled up with installations to play and do sport
                      > activities, see Berlin`s new example www.jugendstrasse-berlin.de
                      > (german only)
                      > - "traffic-reduced commercial-area" ("verkehrsberuhigter
                      > Geschaeftsbereich"), means: speed of e.g. 10 km/h with other rules
                      > in the special case
                      > - "flaneur-zone" ("Flanierzone", developped in Burgdorf, CH), or new
                      > official term: "meeting-zone" ("Begegnungszone") (new case in
                      > Switzerland`s Building Law Code, in case of interest I can fax the
                      > related law paper, I have only the german version), means
                      > pedestrians are privileged and can use the whole street space;
                      > maximum speed 20 km/h
                      > - "30 km/h-zone" ("Tempo 30 Zone"), means maximum speed of 30 km/h
                      > up to
                      > - "pedestrian zone" ("Fussgaengerzone"), means: I hope you all know
                      > this very well.
                      >
                      > ... so for every situation there is an instrumentarium for the best
                      > solution. Our goal should be the implementation of more of these
                      > solutions in the public consciousness and urban reality.
                      >
                      > I don`t like the (direction of this) subtle discussion about
                      > permissions for the use of sidewalks.
                      > In general, I wish there would be more discussion in this newsgroup
                      > about new carfree areas or carfree action (like these days) in our
                      > environment, more reports and exchange of experiences.
                      > **********************
                      > | Just curious how much diversity of opinion there is out there, in
                      > | car-free land. Just what is a "car"? Is a Twike a "car"?
                      > | (link to twike:)
                      > | <http://twike.cjb.net/>
                      >
                      > I know one of the owners of a Twike in Berlin: He classifies it as a
                      > Car.
                      >
                      > Any vehicle is a car, if it has the usual size of cars, is faster
                      > than pedestrians and needs non-human energy. The problem with them
                      > is not only its pollution and noise, but also the big consumption of
                      > space (that can be used much better and makes housing more expensive
                      > than it could be) and the danger of its speed for people on the
                      > streets (last point see together with the problem of hard metal
                      > against human flesh).
                      > Isn`t this clear enough ?
                      > **********************
                      > | How will we know when our city is "car free"?
                      >
                      > If you see there no cars during most of the day- and nighttime.
                      > Usually in our pedestrian areas are special & short time-zones for
                      > commercial & private delivery and inhabitants (only if they have a
                      > garage in the zone). A good example is the innercity of Freiburg in
                      > Germany. Read this english article about:
                      > "Freiburg's green transport policies are central to the city's
                      > development, reports Rolf B�hme"
                      > http://www.ourplanet.com/imgversn/121/bohme.html
                      >
                      > The definition of "carfree" says: if you have only 0.1-0.2 parking
                      > places per dwelling and no traffic in the related area, except some
                      > serious exceptions ("blue-light"-traffic, delivery, handicapts).
                      > If you have more you can call it "low car housing" and
                      > "traffic-reduced", and there are more other terms for it.
                      > See more about carfree definitions:
                      > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/Definition.html (sorry, still german
                      > only)
                      >
                      > More links about worldwide carfree vacation destinations and carfree
                      > initatives & projects:
                      > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/projects.html (Introduction page of
                      > the related chapter in English)
                      >
                      > best,
                      > Markus Heller, Berlin
                      > http://www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html (Introduction page in
                      > English)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                      > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Richard Risemberg
                      I agree--no wheeled vehicles on sidewalk except for wheelchairs and the scooter-chairs that disabled people use. (Speaking of adult users only here, of
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 23, 2003
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                        I agree--no wheeled vehicles on sidewalk except for wheelchairs and the
                        scooter-chairs that disabled people use. (Speaking of adult users only
                        here, of course.)

                        I realize most peoples' experiences in sidewalk mixing come from
                        suburban-plan areas where no one walks. In the carfree city--and that
                        is what we must build toward--every who can walks walks at least
                        sometimes.

                        In other words, images riding your bicycle/scooter/skateboard/whatever
                        down Fifth Avenue in Manhattan...wheels belong on the street. (And cars
                        belong on roads, outside of town.)

                        Richard

                        autofrei-wohnen.de wrote:

                        > Hi Lock,
                        > you asked:
                        >
                        > | So, are *any* wheeled modes appropriate on sidewalks?
                        > | eg
                        > | rollerblades?
                        > | rollerskis?
                        > | rollerskates?
                        > | skateboards?
                        > | scooters?
                        > | bicycles?
                        > | tricycles?
                        > | mobility scooters?
                        > | motorized luggage carts?
                        >
                        > For me these vehicles have to be on the streets or better if possible: on bike-lanes on the streets. Have you ever realised the shock of old people, when you passed by from behind with higher speed than they walk ?! If we want to encourage people for walking, the sidewalks should be a "taboo" for all who are faster than pedestrians. Of course, there are special rules for little children, but they have to be teached to pass very slow !

                        --
                        Richard Risemberg
                        http://www.living-room.org
                        http://www.newcolonist.com

                        "I believe that every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity,
                        an obligation; every possession, a duty."
                        John D. Rockefeller, Jr.
                      • Mark Jaroski
                        ... Actually, in a real carfree city there is no need for sidwalks. For instance in the carfree sections which most European cities have there are no curbs,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 24, 2003
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                          Richard Risemberg wrote:
                          > I realize most peoples' experiences in sidewalk mixing come from
                          > suburban-plan areas where no one walks. In the carfree city--and that
                          > is what we must build toward--every who can walks walks at least
                          > sometimes.

                          Actually, in a real carfree city there is no need for
                          sidwalks. For instance in the carfree sections which most
                          European cities have there are no curbs, and no sidwalks.

                          The exception is the carfree area around Forum Les-Halles in
                          paris, but that was only recently converted to carfree.

                          --
                          --
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                          -- mark at geekhive dot net --
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