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Re: Scooters on bike paths?

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  • lockhughes
    Hello Rob, and list Thanks for your reply! ... Soooooo, what re the Sydney police doing about this!!!? ... OK. Well, given that my little electric scoot with
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 8, 2003
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      Hello Rob, and list

      Thanks for your reply!

      --- In carfree_cities, Rob Hines <robhines@m...> wrote:
      > Bike/walk paths are just that, bike/walk paths. Here in Nova
      >Scotia we've had a horrible time with all-terrain vehicles.
      >Legally they are not permitted anywhere except on the property
      >of the owner of the vehicle. In reality the are everywhere,
      >on sidewalks, city streets, public parks, recreational lands,
      >woodlands, and even in rivers. They have become a safety,
      >security, and environmental disaster.

      Soooooo, what're the Sydney police doing about this!!!?

      >Now, not that your vehicle is like an ATV, but it is motorized.
      >Unless your vehicle is a motorized wheelchair or other device
      >essential to your immediate personal mobility, it shouldn't be
      >permitted on a bicycle or pedestrian pathway.

      OK. Well, given that my little electric scoot with rider doesn't
      weigh as much as many bicycles, and doesn't go as fast as many
      bicycles, and has better brakes than many bicycles, and is safer for
      me to ride than a bicycle, what are your concerns exactly, about it
      being motorized? Most of the time, folks around me do not even
      realize I have a power-assist onboard! Is it the vehicle that is
      dangerous, or the operator? And, would you ban kick scoots (non-
      motorized) from pathways and sidewalks as well?

      And... so, what do folks here think about the Segway? It has similar
      operating characteristics to my scooter... just costs about 7 times
      as much. Could the Segway co-exist with folks on the sidewalks and
      pathways and bicycle lanes?

      Don't know about Sydney, but here in Toronto, the suburban sidewalks
      are in excellent shape (no gutters or potholes) and almost devoid of
      foot traffic - most folks have their butts parked in their SUVs <sigh>

      Thanks

      Lock Hughes
      Toronto Harbour
      http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
    • Rob Hines
      ... The fact that it is motorized is my only reason. Legislation has to draw the line somewhere. If people power their own transportation with their own
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 10, 2003
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        On Friday, August 08, 2003, at 06:59AM, lockhughes <felixkc123@...> wrote:

        >Hello Rob, and list
        >
        >Thanks for your reply!
        >
        >--- In carfree_cities, Rob Hines <robhines@m...> wrote:
        >> Bike/walk paths are just that, bike/walk paths. Here in Nova
        >>Scotia we've had a horrible time with all-terrain vehicles.
        >>Legally they are not permitted anywhere except on the property
        >>of the owner of the vehicle. In reality the are everywhere,
        >>on sidewalks, city streets, public parks, recreational lands,
        >>woodlands, and even in rivers. They have become a safety,
        >>security, and environmental disaster.
        >
        >Soooooo, what're the Sydney police doing about this!!!?
        >
        >>Now, not that your vehicle is like an ATV, but it is motorized.
        >>Unless your vehicle is a motorized wheelchair or other device
        >>essential to your immediate personal mobility, it shouldn't be
        >>permitted on a bicycle or pedestrian pathway.
        >
        > OK. Well, given that my little electric scoot with rider doesn't
        >weigh as much as many bicycles, and doesn't go as fast as many
        >bicycles, and has better brakes than many bicycles, and is safer for
        >me to ride than a bicycle, what are your concerns exactly, about it
        >being motorized?

        The fact that it is 'motorized' is my only reason. Legislation has to draw the line somewhere. If people power their own transportation with their own power, walking, cycling, scooters, hen they are in direct control of the speed and direction of themselves. Motorized transportation is one step away from that where there are two steps, the person using their power to manipulate the controls and the motor responding. Adding the second step increases the chance of collision. Also, the problem is not only with motorized units. They are incompatible with pedestrians/cyclists/non-motorized transportation in the sense that some people may not know what to expect from the driver of a motorized device and the confusion may lead to a collision of some type. Pedestrians walking with pedestrians is less dangerous and people have expectations as to how to deal and maneuver with other pedestrians who are likely traveling at the same speed.

        Most of the time, folks around me do not even
        >realize I have a power-assist onboard! Is it the vehicle that is
        >dangerous, or the operator? And, would you ban kick scoots (non-
        >motorized) from pathways and sidewalks as well?

        Definately not.


        >And... so, what do folks here think about the Segway? It has similar
        >operating characteristics to my scooter... just costs about 7 times
        >as much. Could the Segway co-exist with folks on the sidewalks and
        >pathways and bicycle lanes?

        >Don't know about Sydney, but here in Toronto, the suburban sidewalks
        >are in excellent shape (no gutters or potholes) and almost devoid of
        >foot traffic - most folks have their butts parked in their SUVs <sigh>
        >
        >Thanks
        >
        >Lock Hughes
        >Toronto Harbour
        >http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TorontoEVA/
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >


        Rob Hines
        81 York St.
        Sydney NS B1P 6B5
        robhines@...
        902.379.2404
      • lockhughes
        Hi Rob, and carfree ... wrote: LH OK. Well, given that my little electric scoot with rider doesn t LH weigh as much as many bicycles, and doesn t go as fast
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 23, 2003
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          Hi Rob, and carfree

          sorry, I missed this earlier post:
          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Rob Hines <robhines@m...>
          wrote:
          LH> OK. Well, given that my little electric scoot with rider doesn't
          LH>weigh as much as many bicycles, and doesn't go as fast as many
          LH>bicycles, and has better brakes than many bicycles, and is safer
          LH>for me to ride than a bicycle, what are your concerns exactly,
          LH>about it being motorized?
          >
          RH> The fact that it is 'motorized' is my only reason.
          RH>Legislation has to draw the line somewhere. If people
          RH>power their own transportation with their own power,
          RH>walking, cycling, scooters, hen they are in direct
          RH>control of the speed and direction of themselves.
          RH>Motorized transportation is one step away from that where
          RH>there are two steps, the person using their power to
          RH>manipulate the controls and the motor responding.
          RH>Adding the second step increases the chance of collision.

          So Rob, first off, I am in no less control on my little scooter than
          the bikes and bladers etc around me. The manufacturers have various
          safety schemes too for power assist. Stuff like pedelec products,
          where the bike only adds power as pressure is applied to the pedals,
          or brakes which cut power as brakes are applied, and systems which
          only provide any power when the vehicle first reaches a 2-3mph pace.

          "Motorized" is a convenient place to draw a line, but it is the wrong
          place to draw this line. It penalizes responsible folk, folks who
          live in windy or hilly areas, large people, folks that need to haul
          cargo, folks that may have a mobility problem.

          How `bout those mobility scoots? I haven't seen a rash of news
          reports yet about accidents in these? `Course, they are very slow
          speed vehicles. But that just gets back to my comment about SPEEDS
          being the thing to regulate or moderate, not so much the vehicles.

          RH>Also, the problem is not only with motorized units. They are
          RH>incompatible with pedestrians/cyclists/non-motorized
          RH>transportation in the sense that some people may not
          RH>know what to expect from the driver of a motorized
          RH>device and the confusion may lead to a collision of some
          RH>type. Pedestrians walking with pedestrians is less
          RH>dangerous and people have expectations as to how to
          RH>deal and maneuver with other pedestrians who are likely
          RH>traveling at the same speed.

          I agree with you. From my experience (a few hundred km driven on
          urban sidewalks) a very few persons do appear nervous at a distance.
          They can still appear nervous as I *walk* by. I believe they are gun-
          shy from past experience with reckless bike riders (note, it is the
          drivers that are reckless, and not the vehicles.) About 99% of the
          time I would say I am treated as if I were a cyclist.

          LH> Most of the time, folks around me do not even
          LH>realize I have a power-assist onboard! Is it the vehicle that is
          LH>dangerous, or the operator? And, would you ban kick scoots (non-
          LH>motorized) from pathways and sidewalks as well?
          >
          RH> Definately not.

          Well Rob, if we can't agree, at least with my little scooter, you
          won't be able to tell if it is powered or not as I go by, so I assume
          that will suffice! :)

          Here's an example of the kind of thing you will never even notice
          as it goes by you on your sidewalk:
          <http://tinyurl.com/oc4f>

          The ONLY complaints folks have center around reckless drivers and
          the noise and smell of the gas powered scooters.

          Lock
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