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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Urban automobile cost per mile

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  • Mark Christiansen
    In addition to that, there are potential health cost reductions from being in better physical condition. Mark The depth and strength of a human character are
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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      In addition to that, there are potential health cost reductions from being in better physical condition.

      Mark

      The depth and strength of a human character are defined by its moral reserves. People reveal themselves completely only when they are thrown out of the customary conditions of their life, for only then do they have to fall back on their reserves.
      -- Leonardo da Vinci

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Will <v_stewart@...>
      To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 2:48 AM
      Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: Urban automobile cost per mile


      --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Jason Davies <jason@o...> wrote:

      >
      > I was talking about how much it costs to get
      > around by bike: having to eat extra is part of that cost, and I *do* eat
      > more, because I go through periods of not cycling much, then cycling
      quite
      > a lot, and the amount I eat varies accordingly.

      I see at least 3 aspects to this;

      - Most people in the US eat too much anyway, so if they started
      bicycling, they would likely moderate their appetite and eat less.

      - If they did so, they could save money by not having a gym expense
      that they likely do not use anyway.

      - The cost of an extra side at a meal is insignificant to the
      $0.36/mile cost of operating the automobile.

      The whole point is; What it the big picture?

      Will Stewart


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jason Davies
      ... no it didn t, not exactly. It began when I said that riding a bicycle in London was not far off the calculated cost of driving in the US (I noted that it
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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        >The discussion originated by saying that the cost of maintenance of a
        >bicycle is comparable to the cost of maintence of a car.


        no it didn't, not exactly. It began when I said that riding a bicycle in
        London was not far off the calculated cost of driving in the US (I noted
        that it would be more here). Since then it has completely baffled me.,
        mainly because (I hate to say it) it has been repeatedly treated as if it
        was a US-relevant discussion rather than a cross-cultural discussion.

        If you want to ride a three-speed 11 miles each way in London, up the hills
        and across the moon-craters, then be my guest, but I would rather walk.
        Those US cities that I hae visited (NY, Denver, Santa Fe, Troy, Schenectady
        (apologies if I have misspelled) are utterly different from London. Your
        worst road surface is equal to our best, and there's precious little of
        that. My bikes cost between £500 and £600: not really top range. I have
        done the journey - once - on a three speed and it took me an hour and a
        half instead of an hour. No thanks:-)

        In the UK, the obesity issue and the gym issue are both virtually
        non-existent. We have a hard time getting employers etc to acknowledge that
        it costs *anything* to cycle (expenses are typically allowed for cars and
        trains, rarely for bikes). It is a bit depressing to find that even
        pro-cycling people also think it is negligable!
        --
        "Always get a second opinion. Don't you think?"
      • Jason Davies
        ... see? US-centred, again:-) -- Car makers are putting so much mobile technology into their cars, why not just insert a SIM card and turn the car into a
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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          >In addition to that, there are potential health cost reductions from
          >being in better physical condition.


          see? US-centred, again:-)
          --
          "Car makers are putting so much mobile technology into their cars, why not just insert a SIM card and turn the car into a mobile itself?" (Guardian 27.6.02)

          "The [add stupid car name of choice]: the future has arrived."

          All you need now is an ice-cream cone stuck on your forehead, a couple of sink plungers stuck in those *essential* 'roo-bars, and you too can be a Dalek.
        • Jason Davies
          ... oh, except that the only time I have cost the NHS anything since I was 11 is when I have been knocked off my bike:-) seriously though, while I realise all
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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            >In addition to that, there are potential health cost reductions from
            >being in better physical condition.


            oh, except that the only time I have cost the NHS anything since I was 11
            is when I have been knocked off my bike:-)

            seriously though, while I realise all these considerations are part of
            whether it is *worth* cycling, they have no bearing on the cold
            calculations. It does cost to ride a bike in reasonable condition and an
            amount that a small budget definitely notices. You can't cook teh books by
            saying that you will feel better for it. There are health benefits but
            there are financial costs. I can't tell my bank manager to give me an
            overdraft because I am fitter than he is, can I?

            This conversation is very bemusing...I shall desist from it from now on...
            --
            Let me see if I have this right...a President elected in a questionable election and a Prime Minister faced with the biggest demonstration in British history are going, without the support of the UN, to invade Iraq and make the government there more, er, *accountable.*? Did I miss something?
          • Mark Christiansen
            And that s a bad thing in this discussion? :) From what I ve observed, the US is the biggest contributor to the car problem and thus US comments are important
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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              And that's a bad thing in this discussion? :) From what I've observed, the US is the biggest contributor to the car problem and thus US comments are important in this discussion.

              Health care cost is a factor in the financial picture for US citizens. Of course, if I am healthier, then I can use my time off to vacation instead of mope around the house with the flu, so I may spend more money in the end. :)

              The cost picture is complicated. Any one of us could type pages of cost considerations for somebody trying to decide if it is financially a good idea to ride a bike more or to abandon the automobile entirely. Carefully chosen considerations will show that a car is really the best financial choice and other carefully chosen considerations will show that a car is not the best financial choice.

              Mark

              Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans.
              -- John Lennon

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jason Davies
              To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Urban automobile cost per mile


              >In addition to that, there are potential health cost reductions from
              >being in better physical condition.


              see? US-centred, again:-)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jason Davies
              ... yes, true, but my experience on mailing lists of all kinds is that topics rapidly become irrelevant to anyone else but the US; and it is frustrating to be
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4, 2003
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                >And that's a bad thing in this discussion? :) From what I've
                >observed, the US is the biggest contributor to the car problem and
                >thus US comments are important in this discussion.


                yes, true, but my experience on mailing lists of all kinds is that topics
                rapidly become irrelevant to anyone else but the US; and it is frustrating
                to be told firstly that my calculations are wrong, secondly that my
                calculations are flawed, thirdly that I am not taking into account various
                other factors, fourthly to be told that there are factors I have missed
                (which I didn't , because they are irrelevant in my explicitly UK-based
                comment) and fifthly that I have missed some US-specific factors!

                by all means expand on what I said but I got the feeling that I had somehow
                done it 'wrong' and that the original small snippet of information was in
                danger of drowning..
                --

                Too late to die young...
              • Andras Toth
                Fascinating discussion indeed... to which I would like to add an even more international dimension. Being Hungarian, I have cycled on a day-to-day basis in
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 6, 2003
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                  Fascinating discussion indeed... to which I would like to add an even
                  more international dimension.


                  Being Hungarian, I have cycled on a day-to-day basis in France,
                  Belgium and Hungary, and I have been in touch with bicycle advocacy
                  groups everywhere. They all use the health argument.


                  Obesity is NOT a US-only problem. It is particularly present in
                  Hungary where we traditionally eat too much and too fat.* And I bet
                  health experts in the UK would not deny its presence either. It is
                  simply a disease related to the nature of western consumerist culture.


                  I understand Jason is talking about his own particular case and he
                  never meant to speak for the average. However I think there could be a
                  point in making cost calculations for the average cyclist and food
                  consumer in each country with the help of available national
                  statitics, and use that as a reference. What we here could come up
                  with is a common method of calculation. Any suggestions?




                  Andras Toth


                  Budapest




                  * Laughing, eh? Not very polite of you! We call ourselves "magyar", we
                  did not invent the starving English name. One more example of the
                  built-in bias in the English language !
                • Jason Davies
                  ... It is going to be very approximate. A bike can cost anything from £50 second hand to £3,000. The London Cycling Campaign might have something they have
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 6, 2003
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                    >However I think there could be a
                    >point in making cost calculations for the average cyclist and food
                    >consumer in each country with the help of available national
                    >statitics, and use that as a reference. What we here could come up
                    >with is a common method of calculation. Any suggestions?
                    >


                    It is going to be very approximate. A bike can cost anything from £50
                    second hand to £3,000. The London Cycling Campaign might have something
                    they have come up with for London. As I said, London is particularly tough
                    on wheels (to be honest, it depends on where you live).

                    various companies have (finally) started costing cycling as an expense. I
                    don't have any figures but I have seen mention of them; obviously they must
                    be working with something. But of course, car expenses are traditionally
                    overpaid...:-) I wonder if they did the same thing with bikes...
                    --
                    What follows is a real-life A level exam entry...

                    ...Agamemnon has little respect for nobbless oblidged in this passage.
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