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Car Free City

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  • Rob Hines
    I ve been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group of people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds, ethnicities, knowledge, and with
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 29, 2002
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      I've been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group of
      people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds, ethnicities,
      knowledge, and with one commonality amongst all, the desire to live the
      car free life in a city as proposed by Joel? I've been wondering for
      along time and decided to shoot my mouth off to see what kind of
      responses I'd get to that question.

      I suppose the question has a lot of other loaded questions, tons, like
      which country, organized by who, what climate, who would finance it,
      those moving there? How would we be granted a system of local
      government that would be a sufficient way for locals to govern
      themselves? So many questions.

      Aside from my desire to live in the car free world, developing Joel's
      ideal city would set an example for the rest of the world as to how
      things are without cars. I imagine tourism, as in Venice, would be a
      major industry.

      Rob Hines
      104-165 Lowther Ave
      Toronto ON M5R 1E5
      robhines@...
      416.944.3856
    • Ross or Judy
      I ll move there. Any nominations, or should we start a new town? Ross ... From: Rob Hines To: Sent:
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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        I'll move there.
        Any nominations, or should we start a new town?
        Ross
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Rob Hines" <robhines@...>
        To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 10:08 PM
        Subject: [carfree_cities] Car Free City


        > I've been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group of
        > people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds, ethnicities,
        > knowledge, and with one commonality amongst all, the desire to live the
        > car free life in a city as proposed by Joel? I've been wondering for
        > along time and decided to shoot my mouth off to see what kind of
        > responses I'd get to that question.
        >
        > I suppose the question has a lot of other loaded questions, tons, like
        > which country, organized by who, what climate, who would finance it,
        > those moving there? How would we be granted a system of local
        > government that would be a sufficient way for locals to govern
        > themselves? So many questions.
        >
        > Aside from my desire to live in the car free world, developing Joel's
        > ideal city would set an example for the rest of the world as to how
        > things are without cars. I imagine tourism, as in Venice, would be a
        > major industry.
        >
        > Rob Hines
        > 104-165 Lowther Ave
        > Toronto ON M5R 1E5
        > robhines@...
        > 416.944.3856
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • cndpandit
        ... of ... ethnicities, ... the ... for ... like ... it, ... Joel s ... a ... YYYEeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAAAAAAAHhhhHHHHHH Thats what Im talking about. I was building
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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          --- In carfree_cities@y..., Rob Hines <robhines@m...> wrote:
          > I've been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group
          of
          > people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds,
          ethnicities,
          > knowledge, and with one commonality amongst all, the desire to live
          the
          > car free life in a city as proposed by Joel? I've been wondering
          for
          > along time and decided to shoot my mouth off to see what kind of
          > responses I'd get to that question.
          >
          > I suppose the question has a lot of other loaded questions, tons,
          like
          > which country, organized by who, what climate, who would finance
          it,
          > those moving there? How would we be granted a system of local
          > government that would be a sufficient way for locals to govern
          > themselves? So many questions.
          >
          > Aside from my desire to live in the car free world, developing
          Joel's
          > ideal city would set an example for the rest of the world as to how
          > things are without cars. I imagine tourism, as in Venice, would be
          a
          > major industry.
          >
          > Rob Hines
          > 104-165 Lowther Ave
          > Toronto ON M5R 1E5
          > robhines@m...
          > 416.944.3856



          YYYEeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAAAAAAAHhhhHHHHHH

          Thats what Im talking about.

          I was building my resourses and selling techniques, for I am not able
          to settle for not haveing a car free city as an example of the
          possibilities.

          My name is Christian David, and yes thats my real email. Im in Ottawa
          right now. I obviously am someone who will move to our new city. I
          have put a lot of thought in creating a car free city. Not only is
          this easily possible, land ownners and developers involved could
          stand to make a sick amount of cash. I have some ideas that Ive added
          to my own car free city that virtually guarantees its phynominal
          success. I have one question, are you considering moving right next
          to a fast train going to the city? Or are you considering building
          from scratch in the middle of the boondox with like only a frieght
          rail?


          Thank you for your intellegence. And mostly your instict/vision in
          knowing what is right.
        • Rob Hines
          ... Well I m not sure how easy it would be. I m thinking it would be extremely difficult to organize the numbers of people needed to build a successful
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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            > YYYEeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAAAAAAAHhhhHHHHHH
            >
            > Thats what Im talking about.
            >
            > I was building my resourses and selling techniques, for I am not able
            > to settle for not haveing a car free city as an example of the
            > possibilities.
            >
            > My name is Christian David, and yes thats my real email. Im in Ottawa
            > right now. I obviously am someone who will move to our new city. I
            > have put a lot of thought in creating a car free city. Not only is
            > this easily possible, land ownners and developers involved could
            > stand to make a sick amount of cash. I have some ideas that Ive added
            > to my own car free city that virtually guarantees its phynominal
            > success. I have one question, are you considering moving right next
            > to a fast train going to the city? Or are you considering building
            > from scratch in the middle of the boondox with like only a frieght
            > rail?

            Well I'm not sure how easy it would be. I'm thinking it would be
            extremely difficult to organize the numbers of people needed to build a
            successful prototype. Everyone has their own ideas about intricate
            details, especially when they are coughing up a couple grand each for a
            payment at the bank. I know I wouldn't want mine to be ignored. But
            it's worth trying to find out.

            As far as location, I believe that we would need massive amounts of
            country side land where there are few or almost no land owners or
            industries, to minimize political friction. We'd need the open space
            surrounding the city, possibly enough to feed the entire population,
            granted that low amounts of animal consumption would increase the
            effective use of surrounding land. It would also be advisable to
            construct within 5 or 6 hours, by high speed rail, to another city.
            There was mention of a prototype between MTL and OTT, but I'm
            unfamiliar with the number of people living in those areas.

            In any case, a database of all people interested, noting there skills,
            and well, the creation of what information to collect in the database
            is a monumental task in itself. But it would be the next step after
            lengthy informal discussion in several forums.

            Rob Hines
            104-165 Lowther Ave
            Toronto ON M5R 1E5
            robhines@...
            416.944.3856
          • turpin
            ... Unless you envision a retirement resort where most of the residents are independently wealthy, the key issue is NOT getting individuals to volunteer, but
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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              Rob Hines <robhines@m...> wrote:
              > I've been wondering how realistic it
              > would be to get a huge group of people
              > together, with a diversity of skills,
              > backgrounds, ethnicities, knowledge,
              > and with one commonality amongst all,
              > the desire to live the car free life
              > in a city as proposed by Joel?

              Unless you envision a retirement resort
              where most of the residents are
              independently wealthy, the key issue is
              NOT getting individuals to volunteer,
              but attracting BUSINESSES. People move
              where jobs are, and they move away from
              towns where there aren't jobs. Most
              people who say "I'll go," really mean
              "I'll go, IF I can find decent work
              there." Many people who have never
              thought of moving to a car-free city
              would move there as a consequence of
              employment.

              To really get this off the ground, the
              best strategy is to sell a few big
              employers on the idea of relocating or
              opening a site in the new town. These
              should be businesses that see value in
              having their offices inside such a town.
              Smaller, related businesses will follow.

              The other key is to control the property
              in an annulus around the town. If the
              town does not have such control, it will
              suffer "free riders" who live just
              outside its border, drive to and fro in
              the outer ring, and then visit the inside
              area when they want. It will become just
              a car-free center of a larger, car
              dependent metropolitan area.

              Seaside, Florida, provides an interesting
              example of a "car free" town that fails
              both requirements. It is a resort, whose
              cottages are owned by people who work
              elsewhere, with no real economy. And it
              is surrounded by exurban development on
              the highways leading in and out. It's an
              interesting place to visit. But I
              wouldn't want to live there.

              All that said, I would move to a real
              town that was car free, IF it was on the
              coast. Mostly that's personal preference.
              However, there are three big benefits of a
              coastal location to a car-free city. First,
              the constrained geography makes it easier
              to control the border. It's no accident
              that the most of the walkable cities are
              on peninsulas and islands: San Francisco,
              New York, etc. Second, the water supports
              transportation that works very well with
              pedestrian and bicycle traffic, such as
              ferries and water taxis. Third, a coastal
              location adds to the economic mix.
            • Chris Holt
              Rob et al, I was just having this discussion with a car-free advocate of mine a couple of weeks ago. I am a firm believer in the fact that we will never be
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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                Rob et al,

                I was just having this discussion with a car-free advocate of mine a
                couple of weeks ago. I am a firm believer in the fact that we will
                never be able to enact the change we want in an existing
                city/community. Buckminster Fuller said "You never change things by
                fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model
                that makes the existing model obsolete" I have been trying to network
                locally to build a car-free cohousing development for years to no
                avail. Hense my desire to join together with like-minded individuals
                to work with.

                I have been keeping my eye out for a parcel of land (100+ acres) to
                purchase in southwestern Ontario somewhere. I have not found the
                perfect one yet (been concentrating around Parry Sound - Huntsville
                area), but I haven't given up. I am not held down to the city in
                which I currently live (Windsor) and am up for relocating the family
                for quality of life reasons, as long as certain conditions are met.
                These conditions are out-of-this-world to John Q. Public, but (I would
                hazard to guess) right in line with everyone on this list.

                I think, by all means, we should establish a data base of people
                interested in pursuing this train of thought. It would be invaluable
                for movement in the right direction. This can't start soon enough for
                me.

                Chris Holt
                Windsor, Ontario
                cholt2@...
              • Cassiano Marins de Souza
                I have observed the discussions about the problems and solutions associated to a development of a carfree city. Precisely, since beginning 2001 I read the
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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                  I have observed the discussions about the problems and solutions associated
                  to a development of a carfree city. Precisely, since beginning 2001 I read
                  the messages exchanged by this mailing list, like a "voyer". Now I think
                  it's time to participate and give some contributions. My interest outcome by
                  the time I was researching urban transport and aspects associated with urban
                  development to make my dissertation to master degree. I an brazilian, living
                  in Rio de Janeiro since 1999. My birth city is Curitiba, worldwide
                  reconignized by it's well done urban plan. My thesis originally was about to
                  study the urban water transport and some aspects caused by a implementation
                  of a planned water transport system. The work changed a lot and the result
                  was a study of the way people behave when an alternative water
                  transportation system is presented, using stated preference methods.
                  But, in the moment it doesn't matter. I just want to tell you that I have a
                  enormous interest to exchange ideas about carfree cities. It's very clear
                  and anyone that wants to se can see that the car dependent model of
                  development of urban areas failed, at least here in Rio de Janeiro, in São
                  Paulo and other big brazilian cities. In this context, carfree projects can
                  get some space here in Brasil, and, why not, some project can even be
                  implemented.

                  That's it by the moment...

                  Um abraço a todos,

                  Marins.


                  -----Mensagem original-----
                  De: Ross or Judy [mailto:rossjudy@...]
                  Enviada em: Segunda-feira, 30 de Setembro de 2002 18:20
                  Para: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  Assunto: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Car Free City


                  The database will not be so hard to create.
                  We need:
                  1) web space
                  2) database developement
                  3) add it to the web space
                  I can start tonight by creating a ms access data base. It can be a temporary
                  database that can easily be moved over.

                  Where to have our city ? An underdeveloped country ? There we could afford
                  a large piece of land. India already has a fantastic rail system and is used
                  to cycle rickshaws. Our alternative technologies would be loved by the
                  Indians.
                  The city could be built in a circle with a ring of green space around,
                  surrounded by fields then highways, main rail lines, and parking lots. Most
                  seaside agricultural land has been developed centurys ago. It would probably
                  have to be in the hills where it is cooler.

                  Another choice could be a smaller piece of property in British Columbia,
                  preferably on the coast where we can easily cycle all year long. There are a
                  few coastal logging towns that are being abandoned due to mill closures.
                  Southern Vancouver Island has good climate and access to the city of
                  Victoria only a few hours away by bus. A ferry runs from there to Seattle
                  which could be a draw for many Americans.

                  Climatologists say that the Queen Charlotte Islands might be the last
                  outpost for life on this planet. Just another option for a place, although
                  now its cold and wet.

                  To add your name to the database, send an e-mail to me rossjudy@... or
                  carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com , if no one has objections, with a subject
                  title "carfree database". Include all the information about yourself that
                  you think should be included in the database. I will make columns from the
                  information that you send me. If anyone else wants to be the database
                  keeper, please let me know, I can use all the help that I can get.

                  Ross



                  To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Mark Watson
                  This is not the first time this has surfaced on this, and other, forums. http://www.carfreecity.us http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~rauch/northpoint
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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                    This is not the first time this has surfaced on this, and other, forums.

                    http://www.carfreecity.us
                    http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~rauch/northpoint
                    http://www.carfree.com/draw/carfree-wg/np_links.html
                    http://www.carfree.com/carfree_places.html

                    Search archives for move, polls, carfree places, etc.:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree/messages
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/messages


                    But sign me up, I'll do whatever I can.
                    Mark


                    -----------------------------------------
                    Mark Watson
                    Carfree Seattle
                    Resource Website - http://carfree_seattle.tripod.com
                    Email list - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_seattle


                    >_______________________________________________________________________
                    >
                    >Message: 2
                    > Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002
                    > From: Rob Hines <
                    >Subject: Car Free City
                    >
                    >I've been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group of
                    >people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds, ethnicities,
                    >knowledge, and with one commonality amongst all, the desire to live the
                    >car free life in a city as proposed by Joel? I've been wondering for
                    >along time and decided to shoot my mouth off to see what kind of
                    >responses I'd get to that question.
                    >
                    >I suppose the question has a lot of other loaded questions, tons, like
                    >which country, organized by who, what climate, who would finance it,
                    >those moving there? How would we be granted a system of local
                    >government that would be a sufficient way for locals to govern
                    >themselves? So many questions.
                    >
                    >Aside from my desire to live in the car free world, developing Joel's
                    >ideal city would set an example for the rest of the world as to how
                    >things are without cars. I imagine tourism, as in Venice, would be a
                    >major industry.
                    >
                    >Rob Hines
                    >104-165 Lowther Ave
                    >Toronto ON M5R 1E5
                    >robhines@...
                    >416.944.3856
                    >


                    _____________________________________________________________
                    Help save rainforest or feed orphaned chimpanzees with Redjellyfish Long Distance!
                    http://www.redjellyfish.com/longdistance
                  • Ross or Judy
                    The database will not be so hard to create. We need: 1) web space 2) database developement 3) add it to the web space I can start tonight by creating a ms
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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                      The database will not be so hard to create.
                      We need:
                      1) web space
                      2) database developement
                      3) add it to the web space
                      I can start tonight by creating a ms access data base. It can be a temporary
                      database that can easily be moved over.

                      Where to have our city ? An underdeveloped country ? There we could afford
                      a large piece of land. India already has a fantastic rail system and is used
                      to cycle rickshaws. Our alternative technologies would be loved by the
                      Indians.
                      The city could be built in a circle with a ring of green space around,
                      surrounded by fields then highways, main rail lines, and parking lots. Most
                      seaside agricultural land has been developed centurys ago. It would probably
                      have to be in the hills where it is cooler.

                      Another choice could be a smaller piece of property in British Columbia,
                      preferably on the coast where we can easily cycle all year long. There are a
                      few coastal logging towns that are being abandoned due to mill closures.
                      Southern Vancouver Island has good climate and access to the city of
                      Victoria only a few hours away by bus. A ferry runs from there to Seattle
                      which could be a draw for many Americans.

                      Climatologists say that the Queen Charlotte Islands might be the last
                      outpost for life on this planet. Just another option for a place, although
                      now its cold and wet.

                      To add your name to the database, send an e-mail to me rossjudy@... or
                      carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com , if no one has objections, with a subject
                      title "carfree database". Include all the information about yourself that
                      you think should be included in the database. I will make columns from the
                      information that you send me. If anyone else wants to be the database
                      keeper, please let me know, I can use all the help that I can get.

                      Ross
                    • Chris Bradshaw
                      I find this discussion invigorating, but I am not sure the process is being thoroughly thought-out. First, is it easier to build a car-free place from scratch,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 30, 2002
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                        I find this discussion invigorating, but I am not sure the process is
                        being thoroughly thought-out.

                        First, is it easier to build a car-free place from scratch, or to find a
                        good "car-lite" place and congregate to improve it (like Arcata CA)?

                        Second, if one were to start one from scratch (a common practice up to
                        100 years ago, requiring a skill our generation(s) might have lost),
                        would one start with considering climate and geography first, or doing a
                        preference poll among the candidate inhabitants (most in this discussion
                        seem to be fellow Canadians), or should we discuss the deep structure of
                        a city that needs no cars, trucks, or even huge surface buses?

                        Third, if we were successful, would we not have simply performed the
                        car-zonked proponents a service, like the Pied Piper, ensuring that the
                        most visionary people on urban reform are led into the wilderness to
                        fight over all matters of detail over what "cityness" really is? And
                        wouldn't that mean we abandon the billions of people who only _think_
                        they want to eat, sleep, and drink cars, as if there are only two kinds
                        of people: those who have cars, and those who wish they did.

                        For me, I would prefer the energy went into thinking about how the good
                        things in cities could be ensured without cars, etc, rather than trying
                        to go off on our own. The nineteenth century had thousands of these
                        utopian communities; and the 1960/70s had a minor resurgence of them.

                        Chris Bradshaw
                        Ottawa ("Walk and Roll City" available at: www.flora.org/chris/)
                      • Chris Holt
                        ... I think the answer here would be the adaptation of an existing car-lite place. My first question would be, does such an animal exist? In starting a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                          > First, is it easier to build a car-free place from scratch, or to
                          >find a good "car-lite" place and congregate to improve it (like
                          >Arcata CA)?


                          I think the answer here would be the adaptation of an existing
                          "car-lite" place. My first question would be, does such an animal
                          exist? In starting a city from scratch, there are (as you mentioned)
                          obstacles that we haven't even considered yet. The issue of local
                          governance and the creation of our own municipality. The prospect of
                          it being big enough to create a significant greenbelt that inhibits
                          the free-loaders from enjoying a car-free space then driving home to
                          their carburbs. The magnatude here is almost mind-blowing. If the
                          option of adaptation were to be chosen, there would be (for better or
                          worse) existing infrastructure in place, existing commercial, retail,
                          educational and institutional oppourtunities, existing governance etc.
                          Plus, it is entirely easier just to pick up and move in. Whether or
                          not we would be able to constitute enough of a mass to enable change
                          is another story.

                          > Second, if one were to start one from scratch (a common practice up
                          >to 100 years ago, requiring a skill our generation(s) might have
                          >lost), would one start with considering climate and geography first,
                          >or doing a preference poll among the candidate inhabitants (most in
                          >this discussion seem to be fellow Canadians), or should we discuss
                          >the deep structure of a city that needs no cars, trucks, or even huge
                          >surface buses?


                          If we are going to the extent of building a new city, I think we
                          should aim for as close to perfection (location-wise) as possible.
                          I'm not a utopian, so I don't expect the inhabitants to be perfect,
                          but by chosing the ideal location, the cards would be stacked more in
                          our favour. Of course, this would be by consensus.


                          > Third, if we were successful, would we not have simply performed the
                          > car-zonked proponents a service, like the Pied Piper, ensuring that
                          >the most visionary people on urban reform are led into the wilderness
                          >to fight over all matters of detail over what "cityness" really is?
                          >And wouldn't that mean we abandon the billions of people who only
                          >think they want to eat, sleep, and drink cars, as if there are only
                          >two kinds of people: those who have cars, and those who wish they
                          >did.


                          Like I mentioned an a previous post, we are not getting very far
                          without the "critical mass" of visionary people working together.
                          With our dispersed placement across the globe, we can only do so much.
                          For us to institute any significant change, we must do it together
                          and show the rest of the world what it would look like. A North
                          American Gaviotas, if you will. Besides, I don't think my city will
                          slip any quicker into the vomit that is auto-stagnation if they lost
                          me.


                          > For me, I would prefer the energy went into thinking about how the
                          >good things in cities could be ensured without cars, etc, rather than
                          >trying to go off on our own. The nineteenth century had thousands of
                          >these utopian communities; and the 1960/70s had a minor resurgence of
                          >them.


                          I find that most of my time is spent trying to convince people
                          (unsuccessfully) that what we're talking about here is entirely
                          plausable. They cannot even come close to envisioning a life without
                          cars. I would fear, in this case, that we would spend altogether too
                          much time, energy and resources trying to convince people that this
                          would not negetively affect their quality of life. This time and
                          energy could be put to much better service in actually "doing", than
                          talking. Plus, is it just me or is everyone else getting tired of
                          just "talking" and not "doing". If we found a place that was
                          open-minded to what we are proposing, I'll be there in a heartbeat.
                          I'm just not going to hold my breathe waiting for such a place.

                          Enjoying just thinking about the possibilities,

                          Chris Holt
                        • cndpandit
                          ... able ... Ottawa ... added ... next ... build a ... for a ... space ... population, ... skills, ... database ... lol Wow I Understand. That is great. I like
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                            --- In carfree_cities@y..., Rob Hines <robhines@m...> wrote:
                            > > YYYEeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAAAAAAAHhhhHHHHHH
                            > >
                            > > Thats what Im talking about.
                            > >
                            > > I was building my resourses and selling techniques, for I am not
                            able
                            > > to settle for not haveing a car free city as an example of the
                            > > possibilities.
                            > >
                            > > My name is Christian David, and yes thats my real email. Im in
                            Ottawa
                            > > right now. I obviously am someone who will move to our new city. I
                            > > have put a lot of thought in creating a car free city. Not only is
                            > > this easily possible, land ownners and developers involved could
                            > > stand to make a sick amount of cash. I have some ideas that Ive
                            added
                            > > to my own car free city that virtually guarantees its phynominal
                            > > success. I have one question, are you considering moving right
                            next
                            > > to a fast train going to the city? Or are you considering building
                            > > from scratch in the middle of the boondox with like only a frieght
                            > > rail?
                            >
                            > Well I'm not sure how easy it would be. I'm thinking it would be
                            > extremely difficult to organize the numbers of people needed to
                            build a
                            > successful prototype. Everyone has their own ideas about intricate
                            > details, especially when they are coughing up a couple grand each
                            for a
                            > payment at the bank. I know I wouldn't want mine to be ignored. But
                            > it's worth trying to find out.
                            >
                            > As far as location, I believe that we would need massive amounts of
                            > country side land where there are few or almost no land owners or
                            > industries, to minimize political friction. We'd need the open
                            space
                            > surrounding the city, possibly enough to feed the entire
                            population,
                            > granted that low amounts of animal consumption would increase the
                            > effective use of surrounding land. It would also be advisable to
                            > construct within 5 or 6 hours, by high speed rail, to another city.
                            > There was mention of a prototype between MTL and OTT, but I'm
                            > unfamiliar with the number of people living in those areas.
                            >
                            > In any case, a database of all people interested, noting there
                            skills,
                            > and well, the creation of what information to collect in the
                            database
                            > is a monumental task in itself. But it would be the next step after
                            > lengthy informal discussion in several forums.
                            >
                            > Rob Hines
                            > 104-165 Lowther Ave
                            > Toronto ON M5R 1E5
                            > robhines@m...
                            > 416.944.3856


                            lol Wow I Understand. That is great. I like what your doing, your
                            acctually trying to organize the people of a city before it is built.
                            That is truely incredible. If you want to know what I think, I think
                            its Industry you should organize first, With freight rail. People
                            will move to town because of the jobs, right. People can use freight
                            also in the begining making it cheap to start. Take three counties,
                            create a presentation, and well that cheap property will, before you
                            know it, be some of the best valued property in the country. Im not
                            aware, Is a county legally allowed, in Canada or the USA to say No
                            CARS?
                          • cndpandit
                            ... a ... by ... model ... network ... individuals ... family ... met. ... would ... invaluable ... for ... Hello Chris, Its Another Chris, Just thought Id
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                              --- In carfree_cities@y..., "Chris Holt" <cholt2@c...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Rob et al,
                              >
                              > I was just having this discussion with a car-free advocate of mine
                              a
                              > couple of weeks ago. I am a firm believer in the fact that we will
                              > never be able to enact the change we want in an existing
                              > city/community. Buckminster Fuller said "You never change things
                              by
                              > fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new
                              model
                              > that makes the existing model obsolete" I have been trying to
                              network
                              > locally to build a car-free cohousing development for years to no
                              > avail. Hense my desire to join together with like-minded
                              individuals
                              > to work with.
                              >
                              > I have been keeping my eye out for a parcel of land (100+ acres) to
                              > purchase in southwestern Ontario somewhere. I have not found the
                              > perfect one yet (been concentrating around Parry Sound - Huntsville
                              > area), but I haven't given up. I am not held down to the city in
                              > which I currently live (Windsor) and am up for relocating the
                              family
                              > for quality of life reasons, as long as certain conditions are
                              met.
                              > These conditions are out-of-this-world to John Q. Public, but (I
                              would
                              > hazard to guess) right in line with everyone on this list.
                              >
                              > I think, by all means, we should establish a data base of people
                              > interested in pursuing this train of thought. It would be
                              invaluable
                              > for movement in the right direction. This can't start soon enough
                              for
                              > me.
                              >
                              > Chris Holt
                              > Windsor, Ontario
                              > cholt2@c...

                              Hello Chris, Its Another Chris, Just thought Id tell you since its
                              your neighborhood, I was blown away when I heard, Apparently there is
                              an island in lake michigan that is a car free town resort.
                            • Wilbur
                              http://www.arcosanti.org/
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                              • Wilbur
                                http://www.arcosanti.org/
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                                • turpin
                                  ... Mackinac, in Lake Huron: http://www.mackinac.com/ There are quite a few other islands where cars are used only as taxis or trucks, and most residents
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
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                                    "cndpandit" <nimaid@h...> wrote:
                                    > I was blown away when I heard, Apparently there is
                                    > an island in lake michigan that is a car free town
                                    > resort.

                                    Mackinac, in Lake Huron:

                                    http://www.mackinac.com/

                                    There are quite a few other islands where cars are
                                    used only as taxis or trucks, and most residents
                                    travel primarily by foot or bicycle. Some of the
                                    Channel Islands. Saba. Etc. But these are fairly
                                    exceptional cases.
                                  • Louis-Luc
                                    ... A project will be presented to remove car traffic from Mont-Royal avenue in Montreal. As you will see in the following link
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 1, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > lol Wow I Understand. That is great. I like what your doing, your
                                      > acctually trying to organize the people of a city before it is built.
                                      > That is truely incredible. If you want to know what I think, I think
                                      > its Industry you should organize first, With freight rail. People
                                      > will move to town because of the jobs, right. People can use freight
                                      > also in the begining making it cheap to start. Take three counties,
                                      > create a presentation, and well that cheap property will, before you
                                      > know it, be some of the best valued property in the country. Im not
                                      > aware, Is a county legally allowed, in Canada or the USA to say No
                                      > CARS?
                                      >
                                      A project will be presented to remove car traffic from Mont-Royal avenue in
                                      Montreal. As you will see in the following link
                                      "www.montroyal-avenueverte.com", already 15,000 people signed a petition to
                                      eliminate cars from that street. I'm pretty confident many people from those
                                      who sign would be willing to remove cars from a significant residential part
                                      of that neighborhood: not only from that street.

                                      Could we all together form a "Critical Mass"?
                                      We would still need to find a solution to freight transport: how to get
                                      merchandises to the many businesses and shops. There could be a dedicated
                                      railed avenue to move freight as close as possible, then it could be
                                      transported to destination by carts or cargo bikes.

                                      This is different from the other proposals in this forum, as we wouldn't
                                      start from scratch, but from a dense neighbourhood, where a large amount of
                                      people live carfree, but still suffer from congestion and burden of car
                                      traffic in the environment.

                                      Downtown underground (carfree) city is accessible by metro. We could claim
                                      jobs are already available a few metro stops away remaining in a carfree
                                      area. The weakness I see though is although business are accessible, they
                                      wouldn't actively take part of the carfree city, unless of course they agree
                                      to turn part of downtown core carfree on surface streets.

                                      For leisure and nature, we'd need to make a carfree link to walk to
                                      Mount-Royal mountain, which is not that far from residential areas.

                                      Well, this is simply a thought for me now, but if Mont-Royal becomes
                                      carfree, that may be taken as a basis, a core, a first step towards a real
                                      carfree city project.

                                      I circulated the petition in my office floor this month, and will submit it
                                      next week.

                                      Louis-Luc
                                    • Matt Hohmeister
                                      I d be more than willing to live in a newly built carfree city--if I can get a good job. As far as setting up a new city goes, we can just use other new
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 3, 2002
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                                        I'd be more than willing to live in a newly built carfree city--if I
                                        can get a good job.

                                        As far as setting up a new city goes, we can just use other "new"
                                        cities as examples. Off the top of my head, I remember Joel's book
                                        mentioning New Delhi and DC among others as "new" cities. Granted, we
                                        won't just pop up a 500,000+ city in a few years--it would take a
                                        generation or three--or longer.

                                        What I would like to know is what local taxes would be like compared
                                        to other cities. Emergency services, police patrols, and public
                                        services will all be cheaper, since they're not having to provide for
                                        cars.

                                        Unfortunately, there's one major problem I foresee: being taken
                                        seriously. I once had a friend's mouth practically hang open when I
                                        walked 8 minutes from my apartment to Waffle House to meet her for
                                        dinner: "This is not Europe--you can't do that.".

                                        Put simply, I sometimes have a very hard time being taken seriously
                                        when I make the decision to not use my car to get somewhere. I can
                                        name examples of this left and right. I have people look at me in
                                        absolute amazement when they find out that I walk a mile home from
                                        work at midnight.

                                        Some people see automobile use as a modern necessary--like wearing
                                        clothes. These same people will see a carfree city as some of us might
                                        see a nudist colony. If you move to a carfree city, do NOT be
                                        surprised if individuals and businesses initially refuse to visit you
                                        because they can't park right at your building.

                                        > I've been wondering how realistic it would be to get a huge group
                                        of
                                        > people together, with a diversity of skills, backgrounds,
                                        ethnicities,
                                        > knowledge, and with one commonality amongst all, the desire to live
                                        the
                                        > car free life in a city as proposed by Joel? I've been wondering
                                        for
                                        > along time and decided to shoot my mouth off to see what kind of
                                        > responses I'd get to that question.
                                        >
                                        > I suppose the question has a lot of other loaded questions, tons,
                                        like
                                        > which country, organized by who, what climate, who would finance
                                        it,
                                        > those moving there? How would we be granted a system of local
                                        > government that would be a sufficient way for locals to govern
                                        > themselves? So many questions.
                                        >
                                        > Aside from my desire to live in the car free world, developing
                                        Joel's
                                        > ideal city would set an example for the rest of the world as to how
                                        > things are without cars. I imagine tourism, as in Venice, would be
                                        a
                                        > major industry.
                                        >
                                        > Rob Hines
                                        > 104-165 Lowther Ave
                                        > Toronto ON M5R 1E5
                                        > robhines@m...
                                        > 416.944.3856
                                      • Rob Hines
                                        I like the idea of picking an existing city location I have to say. Making this place carfree is dependent upon enough car-free minded people moving there,
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 3, 2002
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                                          I like the idea of picking an existing city location I have to say.
                                          Making this place carfree is dependent upon enough car-free minded
                                          people moving there, this is where I think the database could come in
                                          handy. What is the vacancy rate in the Plateau?

                                          A project will be presented to remove car traffic from Mont-Royal
                                          avenue in
                                          > Montreal. As you will see in the following link
                                          > "www.montroyal-avenueverte.com", already 15,000 people signed a
                                          > petition to
                                          > eliminate cars from that street. I'm pretty confident many people from
                                          > those
                                          > who sign would be willing to remove cars from a significant
                                          > residential part
                                          > of that neighborhood: not only from that street.
                                          >
                                          > Could we all together form a "Critical Mass"?
                                          > We would still need to find a solution to freight transport: how to get
                                          > merchandises to the many businesses and shops. There could be a
                                          > dedicated
                                          > railed avenue to move freight as close as possible, then it could be
                                          > transported to destination by carts or cargo bikes.
                                          >
                                          > This is different from the other proposals in this forum, as we
                                          > wouldn't
                                          > start from scratch, but from a dense neighbourhood, where a large
                                          > amount of
                                          > people live carfree, but still suffer from congestion and burden of car
                                          > traffic in the environment.
                                          >
                                          > Downtown underground (carfree) city is accessible by metro. We could
                                          > claim
                                          > jobs are already available a few metro stops away remaining in a
                                          > carfree
                                          > area. The weakness I see though is although business are accessible,
                                          > they
                                          > wouldn't actively take part of the carfree city, unless of course they
                                          > agree
                                          > to turn part of downtown core carfree on surface streets.
                                          >
                                          > For leisure and nature, we'd need to make a carfree link to walk to
                                          > Mount-Royal mountain, which is not that far from residential areas.
                                          >
                                          > Well, this is simply a thought for me now, but if Mont-Royal becomes
                                          > carfree, that may be taken as a basis, a core, a first step towards a
                                          > real
                                          > carfree city project.
                                          >
                                          > I circulated the petition in my office floor this month, and will
                                          > submit it
                                          > next week.
                                          >
                                          > Louis-Luc
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          Rob Hines
                                          104-165 Lowther Ave
                                          Toronto ON M5R 1E5
                                          robhines@...
                                          416.944.3856
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