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Re: [carfree_cities] Auto-Free Zones,

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  • Jym Dyer
    ... =v= One failed implementation doesn t mean the concept is bad. Indeed, there have been a number of failed implementations, most of which have been along
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 9, 2002
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      > Good Luck. It would'nt work. I live in Calgary Canada and in
      > the 60's a walking mall was built on 8th Ave downtown that
      > stretched for two blocks.

      =v= One failed implementation doesn't mean the concept is bad.
      Indeed, there have been a number of failed implementations,
      most of which have been along the lines of massive spending to
      support and promote sprawl, followed by tossing a few crumbs
      back at the city center in a last-ditch attempt to revive it.

      =v= There have also been a number of successful implementations,
      and it seems to me that the original query was along the lines
      of learning from those experiences.
      <_Jym_>
    • greenshift
      ... auto ... given ... streets ... Tom, In the five years that I ve lived in Santa Fe the
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 9, 2002
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        > I used to live in Santa Fe. As I recall, the plaza was closed to
        auto
        > traffic in the summer. It was the only practical thing to do,
        given
        > the volume of tourists clogging the streets. I always wondered why
        > they just closed off the plaza and not some of the surrounding
        streets
        > which were also quite busy.
        >
        > Tom

        ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

        Tom, In the five years that I've lived in Santa Fe the situation has
        been one in which only one or two of the four streets running
        through the Plaza would be closed during the height of tourism in
        the summer. The extreme density of pedestrians (and cars!) in the
        Plaza, presently, leads many of us to believe that the mix is
        entirely unworkable, and the recent pedestrian death (she was hit in
        a crosswalk!) is pushing us into action to close the entire plaza
        permanently.

        Unfortunately, Santa Feans seem to be rather disengaged when it
        comes to activism. Otherwise, I'd say a solid majority of locals
        would like to close the plaza to cars. Also unfortunate is that the
        City Council and Mayor are apparently unaware of the extent of the
        sentiment toward closing the Plaza. Even though my informal polling
        has indicated a majority opinion for closure, only a few show up to
        public meetings. This indicates a tragic disconnect, I believe,
        between the city's citizens and the governing body. This MUST be
        remedied, but how?! Santa Feans don't tend to march in the streets
        or engage in 'civil disobedience', public demonstrations or
        protests, and the like.

        I would be extremely appreciative if several of us could work
        together to compose a well-researched and well-written statement to
        the city government and the downtown merchants -- of any city which
        is facing this hurdle. Such a resource could be made available on
        the internet for all who need it in times like ours.

        The Plaza closure issue has been a perennial one here in Santa Fe
        (for a decade, at least), and the city cannot pretend, at this
        point, that it needs to continue with 'studies', and more 'studies',
        and yet more 'studies'--only so that the issue can be forgotten
        about! It's time for us to act, and I'm desperately needing some
        thoughtful and knowledgable assistance.

        Has anyone here experience working with these issues? Help! Now's
        the time because the issue has been in the local news quite a bit --
        yet still NOT ENOUGH LOCALS ARE SHOWING UP AT MEETINGS AND VOICING
        THEIR OPINIONS. I'm sure that the present City Council would close
        the Plaza almost immediately if they only knew that a majority of
        locals favor this move.
      • Tom Tromey
        ... In this case, one approach would be to convince the business owners that street closure will be in their interests. They may have more incentive to lobby
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 9, 2002
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          >>>>> ">" == greenshift <greenshift@...> writes:

          >> This indicates a tragic disconnect, I believe, between the city's
          >> citizens and the governing body. This MUST be remedied, but how?!

          In this case, one approach would be to convince the business owners
          that street closure will be in their interests. They may have more
          incentive to lobby the mayor and council than the average, um, "man in
          the street" :-)

          Here in Boulder the Pearl Street Mall has been a raging success. It
          is fair to say it is the centerpiece of the town. I don't know much
          about the history of it, though. I read on the web that it was closed
          to cars in 1976, well before my time here.

          Anyway, maybe it would be a good model. Someone, somewhere, will have
          more information on how it was created and the ensuing benefits.

          Tom
        • Tom Tromey
          ... Jym =v= One failed implementation doesn t mean the concept is bad. Jym Indeed, there have been a number of failed implementations, Definitely. Recently
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 9, 2002
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            >>>>> "Jym" == Jym Dyer <jym@...> writes:

            >> Good Luck. It would'nt work. I live in Calgary Canada and in
            >> the 60's a walking mall was built on 8th Ave downtown that
            >> stretched for two blocks.

            Jym> =v= One failed implementation doesn't mean the concept is bad.
            Jym> Indeed, there have been a number of failed implementations,

            Definitely. Recently the walking mall in Eugene, Oregon was reopened
            to traffic (in fact I saw a note about it on this list). My friends
            who have lived in Eugene (I've never been) tell me that it was
            dysfunctional and poorly planned.

            Tom
          • Louis-Luc
            I live in Montreal suburb. I m convinced all city cores need carfree places. Next week-end, Sainte-Catherine street is going to be carfree between 9:00 and
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 9, 2002
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              I live in Montreal suburb.
              I'm convinced all city cores need carfree places.
              Next week-end, Sainte-Catherine street is going to
              be carfree between 9:00 and 17:00 both Saturday and
              Sunday for the yearly "Vente Trottoir".

              I've seen photos of Ste-Catherine from the mid 70s, and we used to see many
              more cars than pedestrians. Today, sidewalks are clogged with pedestrians,
              cyclist are king in the middle of the street, and I wonder why cars are
              still allowed to drive there. They seem to be wasting time there as parking
              is always difficult. All drivers I've met don't like to go downtown on
              Ste-Catherine because they say to me parking is too difficult. The only ones
              who accepted to go there wanted to zip through without stopping: useless.
              The same situation is true for more downtown streets. The car is more
              deteriorating the inner suburb: the ring surrounding downtown. They
              virtually clog all arteries. When they're not jammed, they drive too fast
              and stress everyone who want to enjoy life, as they draw the attention.

              Louis-Luc

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: bill norman [mailto:billnorman1066@...]
              > Sent: 9 juillet, 2002 15:26
              > To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Auto-Free Zones,
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > My name is James R. Martin, and I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA.
              > I've renewed my interest and pro-bicycle/pro-pedestrian activism
              > after seeing a pedestrain hit and killed in a crosswalk near the
              > Santa Fe plaza about two weeks ago. A movement has begun here in
              > Santa Fe to close the plaza to all automobile traffic. I support
              > this action, and would love to have supportive ideas and help of any
              > kind.
              >
              > I need ideas on organizing, promotion of the idea, and knowlede as
              > to what I can say to persuade the yet unpersuaded that an auto-free
              > plaza would be terrific for the city. What can I tell shop owners
              > and managers who are in the plaza who might fear a loss in business?
              >
              > Good Luck. It would'nt work. I live in Calgary Canada and in the
              > 60's a walking mall was built on 8th Ave downtown that stretched
              > for two blocks. No vehicular traffic was allowed at all. By the
              > late 70's the city tore up both blocks to put in a lane for
              > traffic. They then changed the laws to allow for traffic between
              > 6am and 6pm. Other than that during the day you needed a permit
              > to drive onto the mall. Of course this permit came with a cost.
              > The problem is that we now have traffic on the mall during the
              > day and without a permit and I never see any kind of enforcement.
              > I doubt very much if this is an isolated incident and if you did
              > get what you want don't be surprised if it is changed down the road.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
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            • cndpandit
              ... has ... in ... more studies , ... Hello Chris here. I heard santa fe was a little paradise. First off Parking is the main issue here. Is there adequate
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 15, 2002
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                --- In carfree_cities@y..., "greenshift" <greenshift@y...> wrote:
                >

                >
                > ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
                >
                > Tom, In the five years that I've lived in Santa Fe the situation
                has
                > been one in which only one or two of the four streets running
                > through the Plaza would be closed during the height of tourism in
                > the summer. The extreme density of pedestrians (and cars!) in the
                > Plaza, presently, leads many of us to believe that the mix is
                > entirely unworkable, and the recent pedestrian death (she was hit
                in
                > a crosswalk!) is pushing us into action to close the entire plaza
                > permanently.
                >
                > Unfortunately, Santa Feans seem to be rather disengaged when it
                > comes to activism. Otherwise, I'd say a solid majority of locals
                > would like to close the plaza to cars. Also unfortunate is that the
                > City Council and Mayor are apparently unaware of the extent of the
                > sentiment toward closing the Plaza. Even though my informal polling
                > has indicated a majority opinion for closure, only a few show up to
                > public meetings. This indicates a tragic disconnect, I believe,
                > between the city's citizens and the governing body. This MUST be
                > remedied, but how?! Santa Feans don't tend to march in the streets
                > or engage in 'civil disobedience', public demonstrations or
                > protests, and the like.
                >
                > I would be extremely appreciative if several of us could work
                > together to compose a well-researched and well-written statement to
                > the city government and the downtown merchants -- of any city which
                > is facing this hurdle. Such a resource could be made available on
                > the internet for all who need it in times like ours.
                >
                > The Plaza closure issue has been a perennial one here in Santa Fe
                > (for a decade, at least), and the city cannot pretend, at this
                > point, that it needs to continue with 'studies', and
                more 'studies',
                > and yet more 'studies'--only so that the issue can be forgotten
                > about! It's time for us to act, and I'm desperately needing some
                > thoughtful and knowledgable assistance.
                >
                > Has anyone here experience working with these issues? Help! Now's
                > the time because the issue has been in the local news quite a bit --

                > yet still NOT ENOUGH LOCALS ARE SHOWING UP AT MEETINGS AND VOICING
                > THEIR OPINIONS. I'm sure that the present City Council would close
                > the Plaza almost immediately if they only knew that a majority of
                > locals favor this move.

                Hello Chris here. I heard santa fe was a little paradise. First off
                Parking is the main issue here. Is there adequate parking around the
                plaza? If not what kind of Public Transport system does your city
                have? How diverse and rich is the commercial environment of the
                plaza? Is tourism the main industry in santa fe? As stated Im sure
                its a very large industry, where are the main hotels situated,
                compared to the plaza? Id love to do my part to put together the
                presentation.
              • greenshift
                ... off ... the ... =========================================================== Whether or not there is adequate parking around the Plaza is not a simple
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 16, 2002
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                  > Hello Chris here. I heard santa fe was a little paradise. First
                  off
                  > Parking is the main issue here. Is there adequate parking around
                  the
                  > plaza?

                  ===========================================================
                  Whether or not there is adequate parking around the Plaza is not a
                  simple question, in my mind. The City has been working on a
                  perceived parking problem, proposing a multi-million dollar multi-
                  tiered parking facility/building. But no one is allowed to park in
                  the Plaza, anyway. So anyone shopping in the Plaza must walk from
                  parking, regardless.

                  ===========================================================

                  If not what kind of Public Transport system does your city
                  > have?
                  ===========================================================

                  We have a bus system. It is limited, but can grow.

                  ===========================================================

                  How diverse and rich is the commercial environment of the
                  > plaza?
                  ===========================================================

                  Fairly diverse for a tourism-oriented commercial environment.

                  ===========================================================

                  Is tourism the main industry in santa fe?

                  ===========================================================

                  Yes.
                  ===========================================================

                  > Where are the main hotels situated,
                  > compared to the plaza?
                  ===========================================================

                  Several large hotels are a very short walk from the Plaza. These are
                  the largest hotels in the city. Cabs are also easily available.
                  ===========================================================

                  Id love to do my part to put together the
                  > presentation.

                  Thanks so much, Chris! Where do we go from here?
                • cndpandit
                  Judging by what I can deduce with the little I know, there is quite a bit of work to do here. I don t think you should go to the mayor right away. There are
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 16, 2002
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                    Judging by what I can deduce with the little I know, there is quite a
                    bit of work to do here. I don't think you should go to the mayor
                    right away. There are two options people or business. Either prove
                    public majority support or, Get the hotels and other tourism business
                    to make it happen.
                    To prove public opinion you can probably get a petition sighed by a
                    few thousand people say, I'm assuming your city is 1-300 000 people.
                    Or a completely un bias survey completed by a couple thousand people
                    would do well also.
                    To get business in on it you have to do some selling.


                    Please feel free to add to this list:


                    Pros


                    Added Open Space: can be converted to park, outdoor market, stress
                    free walk way, relaxation, terraces, street parties, adds touristic
                    appeal due to uniqueness, higher concentrations of people can gather
                    and feel at ease,

                    Less dangerous: point made

                    Cleaner Air: ahhhh


                    Cons (Create sollutions for this specific projects case)


                    Disrupts flow of personal vehicles; citizens must be able to get from
                    point A to point B

                    Disrupts flow of goods; commercial needs goods to sell, Freight must
                    move in and out.

                    Link for map;
                    http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?zoom=9&mapdata=hP0urGiog%
                    2bcn2l7RvFUyUogA4Ufy3sUEuToZ4cW4ejqLZiua%2fOieK1dUPwkzLNzI%
                    2f572m9uGlFwUDNhNlCa9vaed0dOGQQZFrYWoNw0N5aGk1brMAo52l7vMwXbIkgtbgbct3
                    I7UzM%
                    2f9xgA9GEt0gTNuczBVbS1fgyRdeepdFDz5cZaK5HoHYJ82nabC2t1imYWmmiqImK8tkop
                    oZX7vCPtYlT5nYRlPpaxYB4EHZd0ozIVkq%2buOsHVT%2bVsLJlFWc4a%2b1%
                    2fsnLrISzzXGE%2fV8ehxTfqQxdh9sRPpXWKVXSdA%3d
                  • cndpandit
                    Just to add a few more things. I completely agree with Tim Prescots Post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/4909 Perhaps all thats needed is
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 16, 2002
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                      Just to add a few more things. I completely agree with Tim Prescots
                      Post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/carfree_cities/message/4909

                      Perhaps all thats needed is a couple speed bumps if danger is the
                      issue. That Im sure is very easy to make happen. If its an issue of
                      creating quality urban space perhaps a smart simple project idea
                      presented to local buisness will accomplish that. Either or where are
                      your thoughts?

                      PS sorry about that boched link on previous post.
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