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RE: [carfree_cities] Ranking US cities

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  • Ronald Dawson
    ... I heard recently that in Minneapolis or St.Paul MN that a 11.5 mile Light Rail line is going to built between the airport, Mall of America and the CBD. I
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 9 3:19 AM
      It was written:
      >>Hi. I'm currently living in Minneapolis, Mn which is one of the worst
      >>major cities in the US in terms of sprawl and car dependance. To add
      >>to the recent discussion about carfree US cities, how about we rank
      >>cities in terms of their carfree-ness? I would proposes one group of
      >>major cities (250,000 and up) meduim (250,000 to 50,000) and small
      >>(50,000 and smaller).

      I heard recently that in Minneapolis or St.Paul MN that a 11.5 mile Light
      Rail line is going to built between the airport, Mall of America and the
      CBD. I also read that there is a lot of opposition by some one named Bruce
      Gaarder of St.Paul and by Mall of America over the building of a LRT
      station.

      >I think it might be useful to add a category of mega-city, those
      >above about 5 million or so. The problems are rather different
      >in really large cities.

      >>Just to start it up I would say San Francisco, Portland, OR and New
      >>York in that order for major cities.

      >I'd rate New York as the number one in transit--the NY subway
      >system may be gritty, but it works pretty well.

      New York also has a pretty good commuter train system as well. San Francisco
      has commuter train service to San Jose and up until 1958 there was even
      commuter train service across the San Francisco Bay bridge to Oakland!
      Dawson
    • J.H. Crawford
      ... Actually, I don t have a lot of hard information on costs. They re terribly specific to the local situation and really require engineering assessment for
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 10 4:22 PM
        >Rail or Busway, that's a good question, but it also leads a lot of other
        >questions. Capital costs, operating costs, type of equipment used,
        >distances, air/water pollution and etc. It's a complex situation that seems
        >to be best solved on a case by case nature.
        >Mr.Crawford would have more info.

        Actually, I don't have a lot of hard information on costs.
        They're terribly specific to the local situation and really
        require engineering assessment for each case.

        Rules of thumb:

        New underground metro systems in existing urban areas
        cost roughly as much per mile as new urban freeways.

        As far as I am aware, nobody has ever built a new metro
        in a greenfield area. The costs should be far lower than
        in built-up areas, however. That's why I've dared to
        propose their use in new carfree cities. (The big problem
        in existing cities is working around all the existing
        infrastructure.) Fare-free systems can be built closer
        to the surface (no fare-pay mezzanine), and so should
        be a lot cheaper to build.

        LRVs are competitive with buses in any circumstance
        where the traffic is heavy enough to require frequent
        service (a modern tram can carry easily twice as many
        people as an articulated bus, so labor costs are less
        per rider).

        People won't switch from cars to buses, but they will
        switch from cars to electrically-powered rail systems.

        "Nobody with a choice ever took a bus anywhere."



        ###

        J.H. Crawford _Carfree Cities_
        postmaster@... http://www.carfree.com
      • Ronald Dawson
        ... Richard have you ever seen this URL http://www.erha.org/latl.htm before? This might bring back some memories of LA and once it had a fairly extensive
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 10 9:34 PM
          Mr.Risemberg wrote:
          >I remember trolley buses in LA--very quiet, but subject to the same traffic
          >delays and lurching, etc, as regular buses. Rail is smoother and more
          >mechanically efficient, and with grade separation not as subject to
          >traffic.

          Richard have you ever seen this URL http://www.erha.org/latl.htm before?
          This might bring back some memories of LA and once it had a fairly extensive
          interurban rail system http://www.erha.org/pesystem.htm.

          >If I recall correctly (I was very young at the time), annoyance at the dual
          >overhead wires of the trolley buses was a major excuse for removing them.

          In Montreal one of the reasons(excuses) to get rid of the trams and trolley
          buses was visual pollution of the lines.

          >Richard Ron Dawson
        • Ronald Dawson
          ... In Montreal on our Duex-Montangne EMU(Electric Multiple Unit) commuter line, a ten car(5 married pairs) train can handle 900(seated) to 1200(standing room)
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 10 10:35 PM
            Mr.Crawford wrote:
            >LRVs are competitive with buses in any circumstance
            >where the traffic is heavy enough to require frequent
            >service (a modern tram can carry easily twice as many
            >people as an articulated bus, so labor costs are less
            >per rider).

            In Montreal on our Duex-Montangne EMU(Electric Multiple Unit) commuter line,
            a ten car(5 married pairs) train can handle 900(seated) to 1200(standing
            room) people with a crew of two. Rolling stock information can be found at
            the following URL http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A2H.htm.
            Hey I rode them today. During off peak periods trains can be 4,6 or 8 cars
            long.
            Montreal commuter trains work on the honour system and time to time fare
            inspectors come around. A friend of mine calls the inspectors "POP
            COPs",(POP being for "Proof of Payment").
            For a map of the line look at http://www.amt.qc.ca/tc/train/plan.asp. I live
            near the Bois-Franc station and can see the pantographs from my kitchen
            window. The two other commuter lines use Diesel-Electric trains.
            Ron Dawson
          • J.H. Crawford
            ... I used to ride the electrics when I lived in the Town of Mount Royal. They provided very rapid, convenient access to downtown Montreal. It s reassuring to
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 11 7:26 AM
              >In Montreal on our Duex-Montangne EMU(Electric Multiple Unit) commuter line,
              >a ten car(5 married pairs) train can handle 900(seated) to 1200(standing
              >room) people with a crew of two. Rolling stock information can be found at
              >the following URL http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A2H.htm.
              >Hey I rode them today. During off peak periods trains can be 4,6 or 8 cars
              >long.
              >Montreal commuter trains work on the honour system and time to time fare
              >inspectors come around. A friend of mine calls the inspectors "POP
              >COPs",(POP being for "Proof of Payment").
              >For a map of the line look at http://www.amt.qc.ca/tc/train/plan.asp. I live
              >near the Bois-Franc station and can see the pantographs from my kitchen
              >window. The two other commuter lines use Diesel-Electric trains.
              > Ron Dawson
              >

              I used to ride the electrics when I lived in the Town of Mount Royal.
              They provided very rapid, convenient access to downtown Montreal.
              It's reassuring to know that they're still running.


              ###

              J.H. Crawford _Carfree Cities_
              postmaster@... http://www.carfree.com
            • Ronald Dawson
              ... Wow, I had no idea that you used to live in TMR (Town of Mount Royal). I live just 4 miles down the line in Ville St.Laurent. TMR is a great example of a
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 12 6:12 PM
                Mr.Crawford wrote:
                >I used to ride the electrics when I lived in the Town of Mount Royal.
                >They provided very rapid, convenient access to downtown Montreal.
                >It's reassuring to know that they're still running.

                Wow, I had no idea that you used to live in TMR (Town of Mount Royal). I
                live just 4 miles down the line in Ville St.Laurent. TMR is a great example
                of a railroad suburb, in that all the major streets lead to the train
                station, kind of like the letter X.
                From 1993 to 1995 the line between Montreal and Duex-Montangne was totally
                renovated for $300(CDN)million. New track, new catenary, new stations and
                new rolling stock. Before the track was 100lb joint rail, now it is 115lb
                welded rail with 65mph track conditions, the catenary is now at 25Kv A.C.
                instead of the 3Kv D.C. that it use to be, at stations we have new platforms
                and better lighting. The Boxcab type locomotives from the 1920's, the
                heavyweight coaches from the 1940's and even the EMU cars from the 1950's
                were all retired. Replaced by Bombardier MR-90s (some of the older equipment
                has found new homes on tourist lines and at various museums).
                Mr.Crawford and others, I think you will enjoy this awesome URL done by Marc
                Dufour http://www.emdx.qc.ca/rail/DeuxMontagnes/index.html . Here is an
                other URL, this time in English http://home.swipnet.se/ricard/tmr.html .
                Till later,Ron Dawson
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