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Children & Cycling

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  • Lanyon, Ryan
    ... Congrats on your recent carfreedom! Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into children s abilities to learn cycling skills.
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 6, 2002
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      > Message: 6
      > Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:36:17 -0000
      > From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
      > Subject: Children & Bikes
      >
      > I recently fell out with my older, wiser cycling brother
      > about a CTC campaign which claimed letting an 8 year old
      > loose on the roads wasn't negligent.
      >
      > Let there be no mistake, if you can ride a bike you should be
      > safe on it!!! But in the current situation is it reasonable
      > to use children, in what must be considered a front line!!!!
      >
      > My thoughts are that by insisting parents don't let kids out
      > with bikes you chip away at the "car = freedom" argument!

      Congrats on your recent carfreedom!

      Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into
      children's abilities to learn cycling skills. They decided that they would
      NOT teach cycling skills (particularly traffic-related) to children under
      nine years of age, because the cognitive abilities to multitask, judge
      distance and speed, and make rationale decisions regarding traffic have not
      developed (in general) before that age. The organization also does not
      endorse bike rodeos or rallies, and instead encourages enrollment in a
      10-hour Kids CAN-BIKE course (Effective Cycling for kids Canadian equivalent
      - see http://pannier.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca/CAN-BIKE/). Under the age of nine,
      they stress that cycling should be a supervised activity. More info on the
      organization is available at:

      www.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca

      We also publish some material about cycling with younger children in our
      annual Bike Guide. You can view it at:

      http://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_services/traffic/uobg_children_en.shtml

      -RL
    • Richard Edge
      Sorry Henning, you miss my point. In a car free city there would be no limits on cyclists. I see your point, but would you give a youngster a knife or a box
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 6, 2002
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        Sorry Henning, you miss my point. In a car free city there would be no
        limits on cyclists. I see your point, but would you give a youngster a
        knife or a box of matches?

        Richard
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Henning Mortensen" <henning_work@...>
        To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:42 PM
        Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling


        > I have serious problems with policies and ideas which once again
        perpetuate
        > the myth that the problem of bicycle accidents lies with the rider and not
        > with the car that hit them. This is akin to the perpetuation of the myth
        > that it is ok that a driver ran over a child because the child ran out
        into
        > traffic. We desperately need to stop blaming the victim here.
        >
        > hypothetical question here- In a carfree city would we need to put such
        > limits on the age when children may cycle.
        >
        > Henning Mortensen
        >
        >
        > >From: "Lanyon, Ryan" <ryan.lanyon@...>
        > >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: "'carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com'" <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
        > >Subject: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling
        > >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:01:24 -0500
        > >
        > > > Message: 6
        > > > Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:36:17 -0000
        > > > From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
        > > > Subject: Children & Bikes
        > > >
        > > > I recently fell out with my older, wiser cycling brother
        > > > about a CTC campaign which claimed letting an 8 year old
        > > > loose on the roads wasn't negligent.
        > > >
        > > > Let there be no mistake, if you can ride a bike you should be
        > > > safe on it!!! But in the current situation is it reasonable
        > > > to use children, in what must be considered a front line!!!!
        > > >
        > > > My thoughts are that by insisting parents don't let kids out
        > > > with bikes you chip away at the "car = freedom" argument!
        > >
        > >Congrats on your recent carfreedom!
        > >
        > >Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into
        > >children's abilities to learn cycling skills. They decided that they
        would
        > >NOT teach cycling skills (particularly traffic-related) to children under
        > >nine years of age, because the cognitive abilities to multitask, judge
        > >distance and speed, and make rationale decisions regarding traffic have
        not
        > >developed (in general) before that age. The organization also does not
        > >endorse bike rodeos or rallies, and instead encourages enrollment in a
        > >10-hour Kids CAN-BIKE course (Effective Cycling for kids Canadian
        > >equivalent
        > >- see http://pannier.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca/CAN-BIKE/). Under the age of
        nine,
        > >they stress that cycling should be a supervised activity. More info on
        the
        > >organization is available at:
        > >
        > >www.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
        > >
        > >We also publish some material about cycling with younger children in our
        > >annual Bike Guide. You can view it at:
        > >
        > >http://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_services/traffic/uobg_children_en.shtml
        > >
        > >-RL
        > >
        > >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
        > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
        > >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Henning Mortensen
        I have serious problems with policies and ideas which once again perpetuate the myth that the problem of bicycle accidents lies with the rider and not with the
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 6, 2002
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          I have serious problems with policies and ideas which once again perpetuate
          the myth that the problem of bicycle accidents lies with the rider and not
          with the car that hit them. This is akin to the perpetuation of the myth
          that it is ok that a driver ran over a child because the child ran out into
          traffic. We desperately need to stop blaming the victim here.

          hypothetical question here- In a carfree city would we need to put such
          limits on the age when children may cycle.

          Henning Mortensen


          >From: "Lanyon, Ryan" <ryan.lanyon@...>
          >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          >To: "'carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com'" <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling
          >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:01:24 -0500
          >
          > > Message: 6
          > > Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:36:17 -0000
          > > From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
          > > Subject: Children & Bikes
          > >
          > > I recently fell out with my older, wiser cycling brother
          > > about a CTC campaign which claimed letting an 8 year old
          > > loose on the roads wasn't negligent.
          > >
          > > Let there be no mistake, if you can ride a bike you should be
          > > safe on it!!! But in the current situation is it reasonable
          > > to use children, in what must be considered a front line!!!!
          > >
          > > My thoughts are that by insisting parents don't let kids out
          > > with bikes you chip away at the "car = freedom" argument!
          >
          >Congrats on your recent carfreedom!
          >
          >Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into
          >children's abilities to learn cycling skills. They decided that they would
          >NOT teach cycling skills (particularly traffic-related) to children under
          >nine years of age, because the cognitive abilities to multitask, judge
          >distance and speed, and make rationale decisions regarding traffic have not
          >developed (in general) before that age. The organization also does not
          >endorse bike rodeos or rallies, and instead encourages enrollment in a
          >10-hour Kids CAN-BIKE course (Effective Cycling for kids Canadian
          >equivalent
          >- see http://pannier.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca/CAN-BIKE/). Under the age of nine,
          >they stress that cycling should be a supervised activity. More info on the
          >organization is available at:
          >
          >www.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
          >
          >We also publish some material about cycling with younger children in our
          >annual Bike Guide. You can view it at:
          >
          >http://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_services/traffic/uobg_children_en.shtml
          >
          >-RL
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >




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        • Henning Mortensen
          No but the solution is to make the street safe, not to perpetuate the idea that cars are the only way to go. It is unfortunate that children are often in the
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 6, 2002
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            No but the solution is to make the street safe, not to perpetuate the idea
            that cars are the only way to go.

            It is unfortunate that children are often in the front lines. Consider,
            which pictures draw the agony of war to mind, the one of the man wounded as
            he tried to get to work or that of the child wounded by a stray mortar.
            Unfortunately we portray all adults as willing participants and only lay the
            title of victim on the children.

            That said my three year old son will be taught to ride responsibly and in
            minimum risk areas. I will not banish him to the back seat of a car. I will
            fight to make his trip as safe as possible. Of course I will accompany him
            as much as possible.

            Henning

            ps. I understand your point. It is interesting to note that the
            sub-urbanites in attempting to make the streets safe for their kids to play
            in are reinforcing and perpetuating the use of the very cars which make the
            streets so unsafe.




            >From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
            >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling
            >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:58:19 -0000
            >
            >Sorry Henning, you miss my point. In a car free city there would be no
            >limits on cyclists. I see your point, but would you give a youngster a
            >knife or a box of matches?
            >
            >Richard
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "Henning Mortensen" <henning_work@...>
            >To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:42 PM
            >Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling
            >
            >
            > > I have serious problems with policies and ideas which once again
            >perpetuate
            > > the myth that the problem of bicycle accidents lies with the rider and
            >not
            > > with the car that hit them. This is akin to the perpetuation of the myth
            > > that it is ok that a driver ran over a child because the child ran out
            >into
            > > traffic. We desperately need to stop blaming the victim here.
            > >
            > > hypothetical question here- In a carfree city would we need to put such
            > > limits on the age when children may cycle.
            > >
            > > Henning Mortensen
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: "Lanyon, Ryan" <ryan.lanyon@...>
            > > >Reply-To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: "'carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com'" <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
            > > >Subject: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling
            > > >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:01:24 -0500
            > > >
            > > > > Message: 6
            > > > > Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:36:17 -0000
            > > > > From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
            > > > > Subject: Children & Bikes
            > > > >
            > > > > I recently fell out with my older, wiser cycling brother
            > > > > about a CTC campaign which claimed letting an 8 year old
            > > > > loose on the roads wasn't negligent.
            > > > >
            > > > > Let there be no mistake, if you can ride a bike you should be
            > > > > safe on it!!! But in the current situation is it reasonable
            > > > > to use children, in what must be considered a front line!!!!
            > > > >
            > > > > My thoughts are that by insisting parents don't let kids out
            > > > > with bikes you chip away at the "car = freedom" argument!
            > > >
            > > >Congrats on your recent carfreedom!
            > > >
            > > >Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into
            > > >children's abilities to learn cycling skills. They decided that they
            >would
            > > >NOT teach cycling skills (particularly traffic-related) to children
            >under
            > > >nine years of age, because the cognitive abilities to multitask, judge
            > > >distance and speed, and make rationale decisions regarding traffic have
            >not
            > > >developed (in general) before that age. The organization also does not
            > > >endorse bike rodeos or rallies, and instead encourages enrollment in a
            > > >10-hour Kids CAN-BIKE course (Effective Cycling for kids Canadian
            > > >equivalent
            > > >- see http://pannier.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca/CAN-BIKE/). Under the age of
            >nine,
            > > >they stress that cycling should be a supervised activity. More info on
            >the
            > > >organization is available at:
            > > >
            > > >www.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
            > > >
            > > >We also publish some material about cycling with younger children in
            >our
            > > >annual Bike Guide. You can view it at:
            > > >
            > > >http://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_services/traffic/uobg_children_en.shtml
            > > >
            > > >-RL
            > > >
            > > >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
            > > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > > >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            > > >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            > > >
            > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
            > >
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
            > > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            >
            >
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          • Simon Baddeley
            Hear Hear! S ... From: Henning Mortensen To: Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:42 PM Subject:
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 7, 2002
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              Hear Hear! S

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Henning Mortensen" <henning_work@...>
              To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 7:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Children & Cycling


              I have serious problems with policies and ideas which once again perpetuate
              the myth that the problem of bicycle accidents lies with the rider and not
              with the car that hit them.
            • michelle@giansante.net
              ... Exactly! I ve tried to explain to people that very concept myself! Michelle
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 7, 2002
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                "Henning Mortensen" <henning_work@...> wrote:

                >the solution is to make the street safe, not to perpetuate the idea
                >that cars are the only way to go.

                >It is interesting to note that the
                >sub-urbanites in attempting to make the streets safe for their kids to play
                >in are reinforcing and perpetuating the use of the very cars which make the
                >streets so unsafe.

                Exactly! I've tried to explain to people that very concept myself!
                Michelle
              • Chris Bradshaw
                I agree with Ryan (in part because we both occupied the same position at Citizens for Safe Cycling in the past). I would like to add that children, in a
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 7, 2002
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                  I agree with Ryan (in part because we both occupied the same position at
                  Citizens for Safe Cycling in the past).

                  I would like to add that children, in a properly designed neighbourhood
                  should never need to travel by bike to reach a needed destination until
                  they are of the appropriate age to do it competently.

                  When I hear of a parent wanting their child to ride at at three or four,
                  I ask, what utility is the bike to the child's travel needs? The child
                  of that age cannot form the desire to travel any further than a walk
                  would suffice in reaching. Similarly, what destinations should a teen
                  of 16 have a need to reach for which a car is necessary?

                  However, not only are communities designed today to put frequently
                  needed services too far away, but the means of transportation is often
                  "sold" as meeting non-transportation goals. The 3-4-year-old is more
                  often trying to mimic a parent's relationship to a car, including
                  ownership and power (simultaneously intimidating and impressing other
                  kids). And the 16-year-old driver is doing much the same.

                  In either case, neither has the sense of responsibility to use it
                  properly. For instance, very young kids often have their bikes stolen,
                  as they can't seem to remember to keep them within view or to lock them
                  (and if they lock them, they never seem to be able to keep track of the
                  key or combination). The young driver also has insufficient means to
                  understand his/her impacts on other road users, not to mention being
                  able to compensate (or commiserate with) others they might harm (some of
                  the very elderly have a similar limitation).

                  Chris Bradshaw

                  "Lanyon, Ryan" wrote:

                  > > Message: 6
                  > > Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:36:17 -0000
                  > > From: "Richard Edge" <richardedgebuses@...>
                  > > Subject: Children & Bikes
                  > >
                  > > I recently fell out with my older, wiser cycling brother
                  > > about a CTC campaign which claimed letting an 8 year old
                  > > loose on the roads wasn't negligent.
                  > >
                  > > Let there be no mistake, if you can ride a bike you should be
                  > > safe on it!!! But in the current situation is it reasonable
                  > > to use children, in what must be considered a front line!!!!
                  > >
                  > > My thoughts are that by insisting parents don't let kids out
                  > > with bikes you chip away at the "car = freedom" argument!
                  >
                  > Congrats on your recent carfreedom!
                  >
                  > Our local cycling organization has done quite a bit of research into
                  > children's abilities to learn cycling skills. They decided that they would
                  > NOT teach cycling skills (particularly traffic-related) to children under
                  > nine years of age, because the cognitive abilities to multitask, judge
                  > distance and speed, and make rationale decisions regarding traffic have not
                  > developed (in general) before that age. The organization also does not
                  > endorse bike rodeos or rallies, and instead encourages enrollment in a
                  > 10-hour Kids CAN-BIKE course (Effective Cycling for kids Canadian equivalent
                  > - see http://pannier.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca/CAN-BIKE/). Under the age of nine,
                  > they stress that cycling should be a supervised activity. More info on the
                  > organization is available at:
                  >
                  > www.cfsc.ottawa.on.ca
                  >
                  > We also publish some material about cycling with younger children in our
                  > annual Bike Guide. You can view it at:
                  >
                  > http://city.ottawa.on.ca/city_services/traffic/uobg_children_en.shtml
                  >
                  > -RL
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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