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Re: [carfree_cities] Segway

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  • Chris Bradshaw
    I read this article (below) at breakfast this morning and turned on the TV in time to see the conclusion of the GMA segment. I will predict that it may
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 3, 2001
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      I read this article (below) at breakfast this morning and
      turned on the TV in time to see the conclusion of the GMA
      segment. I will predict that it may completely change
      urban transportation as we know it today.

      The device looks like a small chariot without the horse in
      front, or like a bike trailer without the "tractor." The GMA
      co-hosts were manouvering it around an obstacle course (which
      had ramps but not any steps) like pros in minutes.

      The main issues for us is referred to near the end of the
      article: will it be used on streets or on sidewalks? Of course,
      we should favour the former. Although it doesn't pollute (at
      least not around the vehicle) and its doesn't take up much more
      of a "footprint" than a pedestrian, it does have a speed 5-6
      times that of walking and it raises the rider 6-7 inches over
      the adjacent pedestrians.

      I favour a major reform of city streets, reducing their speed
      limit to that of a bicycle (and the segway), at least the curb
      lanes. Pedestrians already have a plethora of wheeled vehicles
      like skate boards, in-line skates, powered wheelchairs, that
      are not suitable on sidewalks that are not just thoroughfares
      but meeting places and which are the only refuge for children
      and the elderly and others simply wanting peace (if not quiet).

      I can see neighbourhoods converting to such a road system, now
      that this device -- which I would knickname the "gadfly" for its
      "magic carpet" performance and potentially pesky ubiquity -- is
      available (not, though, for another year when a "street" version
      is put on the market, and not for those not wanting to pay $3,000
      U.S. ($5,000 Can).

      We probably need to make ourselves known on this issue from the
      get-go.

      Chris Bradshaw
      Ottawa

      = = = = =

      MYSTERY 'IT' INVENTION IS A MOTOR SCOOTER, SAYS _TIME_
      Reuters (as it appeared in the _Ottawa Citizen_, December 3,
      2001)

      WASHINGTON - The ultra-secret "It" invention that has kept the
      world abuzz for nearly a year is a self-balancing, motorized
      scooter that costs less than five cents a day to operate, _Time_
      magazine reports in today's edition.

      Inventor Dean Kamen believes the machine, code-named It but
      officially known as Segway, will eventually replace cars in
      crowded downtown areas by enabling users to zip around at
      virtually no cost and no harm to the environment.

      The two-wheeled device uses a complex array of gyroscopes and
      computers to mimic the human body's sense of balance, _Time_
      said. Users lean forward to move forward, lean back to reverse
      course, and turn by twisting a handle.

      Falling over is impossible, the article said, and the Segway can
      handle ice, snow, and stairs with ease. "The big idea is to put
      a human being into a system where the machine acts as an
      extension of your body, Mr. Kamen told _Time_.

      Over the course of his career, the 50-year-old inventor has
      developed several medical devices, including the first portable
      insulin pump, a briefcase-sized dialysis machine, and a
      wheelchair that can climb stairs.

      With the scooter's range of roughly 27 Kilometres and a top speed
      of 27 km/h, Mr. Kamen and other officials at the privately held
      Segway Co do not see it as a practical replacement for the
      automobile on long-distance trips.

      Rather, they see the machine as a handy way to get around
      congested downtown areas where driving is inconvenient or
      impossible, or as a practical people mover in developing nations
      like China.

      Company officials have met with city planners and federal safety
      regulators to ensure that Segways will be allowed to use the
      sidewalks, with pedestrians, _Time_ said.

      The U.S. Postal Service plans to test the device for its letter
      carrier, and Amazon.com Inc will run trials for use in its
      warehouses, the article said.

      The company expects to introduce a consumer model for $3,000 U.S.
      within a year, and has built a factory near its headquarters in
      Manchester NH, that will be able to make 40,000 Segways per
      month, _Time_ said.

      _Time's_ article, along with a planned appearance on ABC's _Good
      Morning America_, caps a year of frenzied speculation on what
      exactly "It" could be.
    • Mateus de Oliveira Fechino
      To say that this has major implications is an understatement. Frankly, it seems to me like this Segway has opened a new era in carfree discussions :
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 4, 2001
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        "To say that this has major implications is an understatement."

        Frankly, it seems to me like this Segway has opened a new era in
        carfree discussions : "before-Segway , post-Segway"

        Hello, everybody, for those who remember me , Im back

        Mateus
      • Simon Baddeley
        I don t want to seem unenthusiastic or risk a worse fate - being quoted like one of those clever people who said something like they couldn t hit an elephant
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 4, 2001
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          I don't want to seem unenthusiastic or risk a worse fate - being quoted like
          one of those clever people who said something like "they couldn't hit an
          elephant at this dist ..." but I wonder if this will catch on. Among the
          many reasons people persist in staying in cars - other than to get from A to
          B - is that they provide a reasonably roomy mobile sitting room that affords
          them secure storage and some semblance of protection for a group of up to 4
          or five people all carrying luggage and needing a place to put shopping,
          especially when it's cold and wet. If you've sorted those problems by living
          in town or being good with baggage, then you walk or cycle, using, perhaps,
          one of a variety of folding bicycles if you mixing choices of mobility. I
          like the idea of using the Segway for towing things around in a carfree
          environment but I have difficulty seeing the advantage of this device
          otherwise. Of course it has novelty value and for that reason alone will be
          popular for a while and may turn out to have some good specialised uses -
          especially if sales volume reduces the price dramatically. What I would miss
          is the way a bicycle allows you to be seated while you move around while
          also - except in the case of a recumbent - keeping your head on a level with
          most walkers. Is this just an inability to see the real novelty here? Could
          be. I stand to be corrected. The invention is obviously brilliant and I'd
          love to see it as a long term substitute for car-use. I think that what will
          help achieve carfree cities is a recognition - at the heart of Joel
          Crawford's book - that cities are more civilised places to be when they are
          carfree and designed to be friendly to walkers and cyclists while offering
          impressive rapid transit services and inventive interfaces for unloading
          road freight cargoes onto mini-carts and a range of tracked carriers that
          can mingle safely with walkers and other human powered vehicles.

          Regards

          Simon


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mateus de Oliveira Fechino" <mateus.fechino@...>
          To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 12:45 PM
          Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: Segway


          >
          >
          > "To say that this has major implications is an understatement."
          >
          > Frankly, it seems to me like this Segway has opened a new era in
          > carfree discussions : "before-Segway , post-Segway"
          >
          > Hello, everybody, for those who remember me , Im back
          >
          > Mateus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Mark Burgess
          ... Why do you say that? It can t go as fast as a bike, it *can* go much slower than a bike (including coming to a dead stop while still carrying its
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 4, 2001
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            "J.H. Crawford" said:
            >Let's not lose sight of the fact that Segway is nothing more than a
            >substitute for a bike.

            Why do you say that? It can't go as fast as a bike, it *can* go much
            slower than a bike (including coming to a dead stop while still
            carrying its passenger), it can turn around on a sidewalk, it can be
            used by folks who are semi-ambulatory (wearing a cast or whatever),
            it can go backwards, etc. etc. I don't really see either its form or
            its functionality as being bike-like at all.

            "Lanyon, Ryan" said:
            >I don't see these as being any different than Razor Scooters.

            You should compare the two a little more closely. Segway slightly
            resembles a scooter in form: you stand on it (though front-facing
            rather than side-facing) and hold a handle (a non-pivoting one
            however); it has two wheels (though with one axle rather than two).
            But functionality-wise it's not scooter-like in any way whatsoever.
            Really a scooter is a pedal-free, seatless bicycle, with limitations
            similar to those of a bike.

            If Segway is a "substitute" for anything it would be roller skates.



            > >3. How well will pedestrians and HTs really mix?
            >
            >No better than bicyclists riding on the sidewalk, I'm afraid.

            Certainly bikes don't belong on sidewalks. Why? Because they can't go
            slow enough, they fall down, they can't go backwards, they aren't
            very maneuverable, they're too big, etc. If only there was a vehicle
            that addressed these shortcomings...


            --
            Mark
          • J.H. Crawford
            ... I don t regard these as terribly important differences; the main thingis that it is much faster than walking and about the same speed as cycling (saving
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 5, 2001
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              Mark Burgess said:

              >>Let's not lose sight of the fact that Segway is nothing more than a
              >>substitute for a bike.
              >
              >Why do you say that? It can't go as fast as a bike, it *can* go much
              >slower than a bike (including coming to a dead stop while still
              >carrying its passenger), it can turn around on a sidewalk, it can be
              >used by folks who are semi-ambulatory (wearing a cast or whatever),
              >it can go backwards, etc. etc. I don't really see either its form or
              >its functionality as being bike-like at all.

              I don't regard these as terribly important differences; the main
              thingis that it is much faster than walking and about the same
              speed as cycling (saving aside those on racing bikes). There
              are differences, of course, but for most users they would substitute
              interchangably as far as function. A competent cyclist can ride more
              slowly than a pedestrian when necessary.

              >> >3. How well will pedestrians and HTs really mix?
              >>
              >>No better than bicyclists riding on the sidewalk, I'm afraid.
              >
              >Certainly bikes don't belong on sidewalks. Why? Because they can't go
              >slow enough, they fall down, they can't go backwards, they aren't
              >very maneuverable, they're too big, etc. If only there was a vehicle
              >that addressed these shortcomings...

              Actually, bikes can mix fine with pedestrians on sidewalks,
              as long as there aren't too many of either and the cyclists
              are careful. Same is probably true of Segway, although I do
              wonder just how quickly a Segway can stop in an emergency;
              a bike can stop pretty quickly.



              -- ### --

              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              postmaster@... Carfree.com
            • Mark Burgess
              ... ?? A pedestrian can go zero mph.. ... Well, if you were walking and I were riding you d want me on the street. ;-) ... That s a good question. I expect
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 5, 2001
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                At 8:39 AM +0000 12/5/01, J.H. Crawford wrote:
                >interchangably as far as function. A competent cyclist can ride more
                >slowly than a pedestrian when necessary.

                ?? A pedestrian can go zero mph..


                >Actually, bikes can mix fine with pedestrians on sidewalks,

                Well, if you were walking and I were riding you'd want me on the street. ;-)


                >wonder just how quickly a Segway can stop in an emergency;
                >a bike can stop pretty quickly.

                That's a good question. I expect that if the guinea pigs this year
                find an emergency brake necessary one will get added to the Segway.

                But I think the question that raises is whether or not Segways will
                *need* to stop quickly as often as bikes do.

                As a driver I can't count the number of times I've seen (or nearly
                hit) cyclists who ride across streets or driveways without slowing
                down or considering the color of the traffic signal or whatever. I've
                ridden enough to know why: on a bike it's a hassle to stop at every
                potential hazard, especially if there are toe clips involved, no good
                pole to lean against while waiting, etc. Upshifting and downshifting
                can be tedious if it has to be done every block. For me at least
                there's a definite psychological inertia that's hard to overcome.

                OTOH when I am a pedestrian I don't mind stopping at corners and in
                fact feel safer doing so even if the law says I don't have to. I
                think Segwayists (?!) will feel more like pedestrians and will tend
                to travel with a similar level of caution.


                --
                Mark
              • Simon Baddeley
                Any more news about this? S ... From: Chris Bradshaw To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:22 AM
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                  Any more news about this? S
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Chris Bradshaw" <chris@...>
                  To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:22 AM
                  Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Segway


                  I read this article (below) at breakfast this morning and
                  turned on the TV in time to see the conclusion of the GMA
                  segment. I will predict that it may completely change
                  urban transportation as we know it today.
                • Jym Dyer
                  ... =v= About the Segway, the revolutionary device that runs entirely on hype? No, but in _VeloNews_ somebody turned Segway Human Transporter into an
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                    > Any more news about this? S

                    =v= About the Segway, "the revolutionary device that runs
                    entirely on hype?" No, but in _VeloNews_ somebody turned
                    "Segway Human Transporter" into an acronym and wrote a funny
                    screed with the title, "Who Needs This SHT?" You can find
                    it here:

                    http://www.maddogmedia.com/

                    =v= Earlier, I mentioned that I was interested in a much better
                    innovation, the Megway:

                    http://web.0sil8.com/episodes/megway/

                    I was particularly interested in the Meg Ryan model, and there
                    have been some interesting developments there. The last time I
                    was in a supermarket I saw a checkout rack headline in which she
                    allegedly laments that nobody tries to pick her up when she goes
                    to a bar. Well, my first thought was, "Where is this bar?" and
                    my second thought was that, if she can't be picked up, motorists
                    probably won't be able to fold her up and put her in a trunk.
                    Good for her, but no doubt that means sales will suffer, and
                    maybe the price will come down. A boon for us carfree folks!

                    =v= But now I have another concern. You see, the Megway runs
                    on a soy latte and an English muffin, but in her last movie,
                    Meg Ryan hung out at Cafe Lalo, where lattes cost $4 apiece and
                    you have to bring your own soymilk. More recently, I saw an ad
                    for her new movie, in which she's jumping around in front of
                    Petrossian, where lattes are $6 and, again, no soymilk.

                    =v= So now I'm worried that, while the Meg Ryan model might be
                    ideal for many of my needs, particularly in the area of comedy
                    and romance, the cost of fuel might make her too expensive an
                    alternative for everyday transportation. If I could adapt her
                    to run on my homemade soy lattes (which are organic, cost much
                    less, and IMHO taste much better), we might work things out.
                    <_Jym_>
                  • Simon Baddeley
                    Thanks, Jym. Who knows, the thing might catch on but I don t think it will. I like your Megway though and I have no heart for mocking an invention into which
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                      Thanks, Jym. Who knows, the thing might catch on but I don't think it will.
                      I like your Megway though and I have no heart for mocking an invention into
                      which someone has put so much creative investment. I was surprised Joel that
                      thinks highly of it, but may be that's about being open to new ideas. You
                      win some you lose some and some you just can't tell. I hope I am open too
                      innovation. I like gadgets but I can't very excited by the Segway. It is
                      ingenious and interesting but compared to a bicycle it lacks style. It
                      requires too much passivity from its user - which would of course make it
                      good for people with limited mobility, so maybe I'll come to one in later
                      years. I do like the PowerTryke though:

                      http://www.epc-wheelchairs.co.uk/cycles/pdq.htm

                      The Powertryke is an electric powered front wheel with brakes and handlebars
                      that attaches to almost any wheelchair. I am having one demonstrated in
                      early Feb when I go to visit my mother because I think it can liberate
                      people who are otherwise bound to normal wheel chair speeds. Her husband in
                      his late 80s is missing getting out and about. this might help.

                      I'll tell you what I think when I see the thing at work.

                      Regards

                      Simon

                      34 Beaudesert Road
                      Handsworth
                      Birmingham B20 3TG
                      United Kingdom
                      00 44 121 554 9794
                      00 44 7775 655842
                      07775 655842
                    • Doug Salzmann
                      ... Mocking an invention is not the same as mocking the inventor (although inventors will usually experience it that way). Segways, used on
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                        At 04:40 PM Sunday 1/13/2002, Simon wrote:

                        >I like your Megway though and I have no heart for mocking an invention into
                        >which someone has put so much creative investment.

                        Mocking an invention is not the same as mocking the inventor (although
                        inventors will usually experience it that way).

                        Segways, used on sidewalks/pavements, where the inventor intends them to be
                        used, are just a new way to assault and intimidate pedestrians. Here's my
                        slightly scatological mockery: <http://www.talkpath.com/sht>.

                        We need to reject the idea that they can be operated safely in a pedestrian
                        environment. They cannot be.

                        Now, if the users want to operate them in the roadways, I'm all for
                        it. Anything that slows down the cars.

                        > I was surprised Joel that
                        >thinks highly of it, but may be that's about being open to new ideas.

                        Does he? I missed that. Well, Crawford is usually right about these
                        things, but. . . not this time, if he supports powered vehicles in
                        pedestrian space.

                        >The Powertryke is an electric powered front wheel with brakes and handlebars
                        >that attaches to almost any wheelchair. I am having one demonstrated in
                        >early Feb when I go to visit my mother because I think it can liberate
                        >people who are otherwise bound to normal wheel chair speeds. Her husband in
                        >his late 80s is missing getting out and about. this might help.

                        Devices like this should not be operated in pedestrian space at
                        higher-than-walking-speed, either. Disability should not constitute
                        license to intimidate and inconvenience others -- effectively turning the
                        tables and disabling the pedestrians.

                        -Doug
                      • Jym Dyer
                        ... =v= I wish I could take credit, but somebody else came up with that site. ... =v= Well, I think the invention is really impressive, and I d actually be
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                          > I like your Megway though ...

                          =v= I wish I could take credit, but somebody else came up
                          with that site.

                          > I have no heart for mocking an invention into which someone
                          > has put so much creative investment.

                          =v= Well, I think the invention is really impressive, and I'd
                          actually be very interested in trying one out. I have to admit
                          I'm as vulnerable to the charms of nifty gadgetry as any other
                          engineer. I just don't think it's something to redesign cities
                          around, and I think all the hyperbole to that effect deserves
                          a bit of parody.
                          <_Jym_>
                        • Louis-Luc
                          ... I really hope that Segways are to be a replacement/alternative to cars. If I ever get the chance to use one, I ll be more than happy to take my place on
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                            > Segways, used on sidewalks/pavements, where the inventor intends
                            > them to be
                            > used, are just a new way to assault and intimidate pedestrians.
                            > Here's my
                            > slightly scatological mockery: <http://www.talkpath.com/sht>.
                            >
                            > We need to reject the idea that they can be operated safely in a
                            > pedestrian
                            > environment. They cannot be.
                            >
                            > Now, if the users want to operate them in the roadways, I'm all for
                            > it. Anything that slows down the cars.
                            >
                            I really hope that Segways are to be a replacement/alternative to cars. If I
                            ever get the chance to use one, I'll be more than happy to take my place on
                            the road as a true vehicle, while looking at pedestrians on my right
                            enjoying themselves on the sidewalk. If everyone does see Segways as
                            vehicles, then motorists will find it normal to share the road with them,
                            just like sharing the road with cyclists. And as pedestrians, our job is to
                            use full width of the sidewalks; making Segwayists feeling they can't speed
                            up on sidewalks and their place is on the road -- to slow down cars :-)

                            Louis-Luc
                          • Jym Dyer
                            ... =v= Well, that s the crux of my complaint about the hype: it was rolled out with much fanfare as a revolutionary device that would replace the car, but
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 13, 2002
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                              > I really hope that Segways are to be a replacement/alternative
                              > to cars. If I ever get the chance to use one, I'll be more
                              > than happy to take my place on the road as a true vehicle ...

                              =v= Well, that's the crux of my complaint about the hype: it
                              was rolled out with much fanfare as a revolutionary device that
                              would replace the car, but when that first media splash ended,
                              they quietly dropped all mention of that vision.

                              =v= Take a look at their website now and you'll see nothing but
                              photos of people riding them on the sidewalks, and some babble
                              about "empowered pedestrians." There was also a _Salon_ article
                              in which Dean Kamen revealed that he didn't think much of the
                              whole idea of people walking from place to place. Ugh.

                              > If everyone does see Segways as vehicles, then motorists will
                              > find it normal to share the road with them, just like sharing
                              > the road with cyclists.

                              =v= Of course, they'll first have to learn that they need to
                              share the road with cyclists. :^|

                              =v= My concern is that the Segway will be consigned to bike
                              facilities, in much the way that California has led the nation
                              in clogging our bike lanes and paths with all manner of slow,
                              polluting motorized gizmos. Segways go an average of 11mph,
                              much slower than a bicycle.

                              =v= My other concern is that, wherever they end up, they'll be
                              operated by people with an overinflated sense of entitlement.
                              They'll have spent $3000 or more for this gizmo, and by God if
                              any old ladies with walkers or mere bicyclists get in their way,
                              they're gonna mow us down.
                              <_Jym_>
                            • joel crawfordd
                              Hi All, I m e-mail crippled right now and have to post my responses using one of the free-mail programs. I do not check mail at the address from which I m
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                Hi All,

                                I'm e-mail crippled right now and have to post my
                                responses using one of the free-mail programs.
                                I do not check mail at the address from which I'm
                                sending, so do not reply to this address.

                                There has been some question regarding my position
                                on the Segway. It's not simple, so here goes:

                                The Segway does little or nothing that a bike does
                                not do, except that it may be useful for people like
                                my mother, who never leared to ride a bike and is
                                too old now.

                                That said, I can see it having some application is
                                two separate areas:

                                1. Within cities, it can be used in streets and
                                bike lanes as another form of personal transport.
                                Its 12.5 MPH speed is sufficiently high that it can
                                reasonably mix with bicycle traffic. (I know that
                                those of you who regard 30 MPH as a normal and
                                responsible speed to ride in dense urban areas will
                                not agree with this. Most people don't ride bikes
                                faster than 15 MPH, and I think all urban street
                                traffic should be limited to 15 MPH in all cases,
                                not excepting bikes. The danger to crossing
                                pedestrians is simply too great at higher speeds.

                                2. In other areas, I think the Segway can probably
                                be ridden safely on sidewalks (where these exist),
                                as long as the riders are responsible and yield to
                                pedestrians. We see the same sort of thing with bikes
                                in lower-density urban areas--they can be ridden on
                                sidewalks if the riders are responsible and careful.

                                As to the long-term effects of the Segway on urban
                                development, I'm inclined to think that they will
                                be minimal--they're too expensive to have a large
                                impact. They do have one nice attribute--they have
                                a small enough footprint that they can readily be
                                taken onto level-loading metros and are quite easy
                                to park in crowded urban areas. The size of bikes is
                                a fairly serious nuisance in their use in cities.

                                Regards,

                                J.H. Crawford




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                              • Doug Salzmann
                                ... I doubt that. Folks who can t walk very far in comfort are unlikely to be able to stand on a Segway for very long. And Segway s only advantage over a
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                  At 03:09 AM Monday 1/14/2002, Joel wrote:

                                  >The Segway does little or nothing that a bike does
                                  >not do, except that it may be useful for people like
                                  >my mother, who never leared to ride a bike and is
                                  >too old now.

                                  I doubt that. Folks who can't walk very far in comfort are unlikely to be
                                  able to stand on a Segway for very long. And Segway's only advantage over a
                                  much-more-comfortable "mobility scooter" or powered wheelchair would be
                                  that it could be operated at speeds that should be prohibited in pedestrian
                                  space.

                                  >1. Within cities, it can be used in streets and
                                  >bike lanes as another form of personal transport.
                                  >Its 12.5 MPH speed is sufficiently high that it can
                                  >reasonably mix with bicycle traffic.

                                  Agreed.

                                  >2. In other areas, I think the Segway can probably
                                  >be ridden safely on sidewalks (where these exist),
                                  >as long as the riders are responsible and yield to
                                  >pedestrians. We see the same sort of thing with bikes
                                  >in lower-density urban areas--they can be ridden on
                                  >sidewalks if the riders are responsible and careful.

                                  I'm afraid the "if" describes a world that doesn't exist. I walk on shared
                                  facilities in the Bay Area daily, and have walked and cycled on such
                                  facilities in many other places. Careful, responsible behavior by
                                  cyclists, skaters, scooter riders, etc. is so rare as to be a
                                  calendar-marking event. In general, they all whiz around recklessly,
                                  overtaking much too closely and much too fast, without warning, riding two
                                  or three abreast and forcing pedestrians off the edges of the
                                  pathways,etc. They're in a hurry and they resent the presence of
                                  pedestrians, which occasionally forces them to slow down, in violation of
                                  their God-given rights. There's a reason that there are many more cycling
                                  crashes per mile on shared facilities than on roads: Shared facilities are
                                  inherently more dangerous.

                                  The last thing we need is yet another vehicle.

                                  -Doug
                                • Richard Risemberg
                                  ... And by pedestrians. I bicycle occasionally on an ostensibly bicycle-only facility on the beach in Los Angeles--my purpose being free exercise, people
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                    Doug Salzmann wrote:

                                    > I'm afraid the "if" describes a world that doesn't exist. I walk on shared
                                    > facilities in the Bay Area daily, and have walked and cycled on such
                                    > facilities in many other places. Careful, responsible behavior by
                                    > cyclists, skaters, scooter riders, etc. is so rare as to be a
                                    > calendar-marking event.
                                    And by pedestrians. I bicycle occasionally on an ostensibly
                                    bicycle-only facility on the beach in Los Angeles--my purpose being free
                                    exercise, people watching, and the presence of the ocean. Pedestrians
                                    are prohibited from using the facility except to cross it, but of course
                                    they crowd onto it in hordes, and the cops hardly care. It's one of the
                                    few places in LA where one can indulge in athletic riding without having
                                    to watch for cars, but instead one faces crowds of oblivious waddlers
                                    trudging along three or four abreast, or just standing there, usually,
                                    by some bizarre preference, in the middle of a blind turn. The path is
                                    well-posted, but in spite of numerous accidents, no one cares much.
                                    There's talk of building a separate path for bikes paralleling the first
                                    one, a pretty ridiculous expense.

                                    I LOVE walking for transport, in fact presently preferring it to
                                    bicycing, but when I bike, which I also love, I do so becuase I wish to
                                    go farther faster while still being engaged in the world. Politeness
                                    and deference need to exist on all sides.

                                    Then again, people walk along railroad tracks and are regularly
                                    macerated by trains here, so I shouldn't expect much. (Somehow they try
                                    to blame the trains...!)

                                    Richard
                                    --
                                    Richard Risemberg
                                    http://www.living-room.org
                                    http://www.newcolonist.com

                                    "Hope cannot be said to exist, nor can it be said not to exist. It is
                                    just like the roads across the earth. For actually there were no roads
                                    to begin with, but when many people pass one way a road is made."

                                    Lu Hsun
                                  • Doug Salzmann
                                    ... Absolutely. ... Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility serving the same stretch? ... Indeed. However, on shared facilities, all other
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                      I said:
                                      > > Careful, responsible behavior by
                                      > > cyclists, skaters, scooter riders, etc. is so rare as to be a
                                      > > calendar-marking event.

                                      And Rick responded:

                                      >And by pedestrians.

                                      Absolutely.

                                      > I bicycle occasionally on an ostensibly
                                      >bicycle-only facility on the beach in Los Angeles--my purpose being free
                                      >exercise, people watching, and the presence of the ocean. Pedestrians
                                      >are prohibited from using the facility except to cross it, but of course
                                      >they crowd onto it in hordes, and the cops hardly care.

                                      Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility serving the same
                                      stretch?

                                      >I LOVE walking for transport, in fact presently preferring it to
                                      >bicycing, but when I bike, which I also love, I do so becuase I wish to
                                      >go farther faster while still being engaged in the world. Politeness
                                      >and deference need to exist on all sides.

                                      Indeed. However, on shared facilities, all other users must yield to
                                      pedestrians and operate in such manner as to avoid startling, intimidating,
                                      assaulting and terrorizing walkers. Among other things, that means, like
                                      it or not, operating at near-walking speed when passing/overtaking
                                      pedestrians. They won't do that, though, absent enforcement that just
                                      doesn't happen. So, the best practice is to severely restrict the
                                      operation of all vehicles in pedestrian space.

                                      Bicycles, Segways, etc. belong on the roadway.

                                      >Then again, people walk along railroad tracks and are regularly
                                      >macerated by trains here, so I shouldn't expect much. (Somehow they try
                                      >to blame the trains...!)

                                      Not me. I blame the planners.

                                      -Doug
                                    • Jym Dyer
                                      ... =v= Yeah, it s called the beach.
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                        > Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility
                                        > serving the same stretch?

                                        =v= Yeah, it's called the beach.
                                        <_Jym_>
                                      • Doug Salzmann
                                        ... Cute. But I m going to assume that Jym is serious. In which case, the obvious question would be, So, why isn t that sufficient for cycling? And the
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                          I asked:

                                          > > Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility
                                          > > serving the same stretch?

                                          And Jym responded:

                                          >=v= Yeah, it's called the beach.

                                          Cute. But I'm going to assume that Jym is serious.

                                          In which case, the obvious question would be, "So, why isn't that
                                          sufficient for cycling?"

                                          And the answer would be that ordinarily-equipped bicycles don't operate
                                          well in sand, and that it would be unreasonable to expect cyclists to pedal
                                          along the beach for long distances -- the speed is too slow and the
                                          exertion too great. Likewise, aimless strolling along the beach is
                                          wonderful recreation, and may even be good exercise for many. However,
                                          walking in sand for long distances is strenuous, quite difficult for many
                                          people, and should no more be required or expected of pedestrians than
                                          riding in sand should be expected of cyclists.

                                          So, my question of Rick remains:

                                          > > Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility
                                          > > serving the same stretch?

                                          -Doug
                                        • Simon Baddeley
                                          Doug - I shouldn t have said speeds . You are quite right. I liked the PowerTryke because it appears to allow wheelchair users to go on forest tracks with
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                            Doug - I shouldn't have said "speeds". You are quite right. I liked the
                                            PowerTryke because it appears to allow wheelchair users to go on forest
                                            tracks with reasonable gradients at a little faster than walkers and
                                            certainly better than the wheel chair. In towns it seems it may be able to
                                            get you round rather better than a wheel chair.
                                            Regards
                                            Simon

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Doug Salzmann" <doug@...>
                                            To: <carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 1:44 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Segway


                                            At 04:40 PM Sunday 1/13/2002, Simon wrote:

                                            >I like your Megway though and I have no heart for mocking an invention into
                                            >which someone has put so much creative investment.

                                            Mocking an invention is not the same as mocking the inventor (although
                                            inventors will usually experience it that way).

                                            Segways, used on sidewalks/pavements, where the inventor intends them to be
                                            used, are just a new way to assault and intimidate pedestrians. Here's my
                                            slightly scatological mockery: <http://www.talkpath.com/sht>.

                                            We need to reject the idea that they can be operated safely in a pedestrian
                                            environment. They cannot be.

                                            Now, if the users want to operate them in the roadways, I'm all for
                                            it. Anything that slows down the cars.

                                            > I was surprised Joel that
                                            >thinks highly of it, but may be that's about being open to new ideas.

                                            Does he? I missed that. Well, Crawford is usually right about these
                                            things, but. . . not this time, if he supports powered vehicles in
                                            pedestrian space.

                                            >The Powertryke is an electric powered front wheel with brakes and
                                            handlebars
                                            >that attaches to almost any wheelchair. I am having one demonstrated in
                                            >early Feb when I go to visit my mother because I think it can liberate
                                            >people who are otherwise bound to normal wheel chair speeds. Her husband in
                                            >his late 80s is missing getting out and about. this might help.

                                            Devices like this should not be operated in pedestrian space at
                                            higher-than-walking-speed, either. Disability should not constitute
                                            license to intimidate and inconvenience others -- effectively turning the
                                            tables and disabling the pedestrians.

                                            -Doug







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                                          • Richard Risemberg
                                            ... Yes, indeed, and bikes are not permitted on it. (In some strecthes of this twenty-mile beach, the facility is shared, and then I do slow down.) R --
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 14, 2002
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                                              Doug Salzmann wrote:

                                              >
                                              > > I bicycle occasionally on an ostensibly
                                              > >bicycle-only facility on the beach in Los Angeles--my purpose being free
                                              > >exercise, people watching, and the presence of the ocean. Pedestrians
                                              > >are prohibited from using the facility except to cross it, but of course
                                              > >they crowd onto it in hordes, and the cops hardly care.
                                              >
                                              > Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility serving the same
                                              > stretch?

                                              Yes, indeed, and bikes are not permitted on it. (In some strecthes of
                                              this twenty-mile beach, the facility is shared, and then I do slow
                                              down.)

                                              R
                                              --
                                              Richard Risemberg
                                              http://www.living-room.org
                                              http://www.newcolonist.com

                                              "Hope cannot be said to exist, nor can it be said not to exist. It is
                                              just like the roads across the earth. For actually there were no roads
                                              to begin with, but when many people pass one way a road is made."

                                              Lu Hsun
                                            • Doug Salzmann
                                              ... Well, in that case, if you can t avoid colliding with these scofflaws, try to pick affluent ones. ;-) -Doug
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 15, 2002
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                                                At 09:08 PM Monday 1/14/2002, Rick wrote:

                                                > > Is there a similarly-attractive pedestrian-only facility serving the same
                                                > > stretch?
                                                >
                                                >Yes, indeed, and bikes are not permitted on it. (In some strecthes of
                                                >this twenty-mile beach, the facility is shared, and then I do slow
                                                >down.)

                                                Well, in that case, if you can't avoid colliding with these scofflaws, try
                                                to pick affluent ones. ;-)

                                                -Doug
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