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Re: [carfree_cities] bicycling facilities

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  • Doug Salzmann
    And here s John s contact information: John Forester, M.S., P.E. Cycling Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St. Lemon Grove, CA
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 7, 2001
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      And here's John's contact information:

      <http://www.johnforester.com>

      John Forester, M.S., P.E.
      Cycling Transportation Engineer
      7585 Church St.
      Lemon Grove, CA 91945
      USA

      +1-619-644-5481
      <forester@...>



      At 04:48 PM 3/7/2001, T.J. wrote:
      >Lopamudra:
      >
      >Here is more information on that important book mentioned in Richard's
      >article:
      >
      >Effective Cycling, by John Forester:
      >
      >http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=16-0262560704-0
    • Rod and Lennie Kat
      The living room article you wrote suggested learning how to carry groceries on a bicycle. How do you carry things like that on a bike - a basket? a backpack?
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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        The living room article you wrote suggested learning how to carry groceries
        on a bicycle. How do you carry things like that on a bike - a basket? a
        backpack?

        curious,
        Lennie Dusek

        p.s. I only see cyclists around here with their tight gear on, cycling for
        the comradery or exercise.


        > >
        > Look at this article:
        >
        > http://www.living-room.org/bikepeople/bikepaths.htm
        >
        > Then read some of the other material on that site.
        >
        > Richard
        >
        > --
        > Richard Risemberg
        > http://www.living-room.org
        > http://www.newcolonist.com
        >
        > "Life is complicated and not for the timid."
        > Garrison Keillor
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      • Richard Risemberg
        ... Saddlebags work for small loads. There are also folding box-like structures made of heavy nylon--generally they are called town baskets, and they are
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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          At 3/8/01 8:52:00 AM, you wrote:
          >The living room article you wrote suggested learning how to carry groceries
          >on a bicycle. How do you carry things like that on a bike - a basket? a
          >backpack?

          Saddlebags work for small loads. There are also folding box-like structures made of heavy nylon--generally they are called "town baskets," and they are sized to fit a standard US grocery bag. These let you
          carry two full bags on one bike. I always have the baggers pack the bags full--they generally fill them only halfway, an absurd waste of paper--and have carried 30 lbs. or more of groceries home this way.
          Before my divorce a couple of years ago, I did ALL the shopping for a family of three by bicycle. I'd usually also strap a bag of potatoes or some other sturdier item on the rack.

          A friend of mineswears by trailers, but I don't care for them. You can carry immense loads that way, though--see teh article titled "Very Special Delivery" on Living Room (http://www.living-
          room.org/bikepeople/delivery.htm) for more. Those guys pull loads of a half a ton on bikes!

          Couriers love basekts for heavy load, but I don't enjoy the way the bike handles with a load up front and up high. Some British and American delivery bikes have a small front wheel and a frame-mounted basket
          that works well. See http://www.workbike.org/.
          Richard
        • 3L
          ... the ... Then it s better to help cyclists (and pedestrians too) to reclaim their rights ON all public roads, i.e. the right to ride and use a standard lane
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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            :Ms Lopa,

            :I hope these help. As for creating exclusive bicycle lanes to control
            :vehicular pollution, I think that your time & money would be much better
            :spent on education (of both drivers & cyclists) & on adding impediments or
            :costs to driving. I believe that if driving is not as easy/cheap/socially
            :accepted/etc., then fewer people will drive. I realize that things are
            :different here, but costly segregation engineering (i.e. bike lanes/paths)
            :in the US probably hasn't decreased pollution by any measurable amount. It
            :may get more people riding, which is good, but that just opens a spot on
            the
            :road for another car. (generated traffic) Not to mention that bike paths
            :that go nowhere only get driven to for recreation use.

            Then it's better to help cyclists (and pedestrians too) to reclaim their
            rights ON all public roads, i.e. the right to ride and use a standard lane
            with no threatening to security. Not just the right on paper, but the full
            right to actually do so naturally with no worry or fear. This will slow car
            traffic and discourage driving where there is more human traffic.

            Sending cyclists to dedicated paths is not the optimal solution, unless the
            paths cover all the cities and there is no need whatsoever to share the road
            with cars (overpasses or underpasses for example).

            Louis-Luc
          • Henning Mortensen
            Even though this question was asked of Richard, I will comment anyway. I started out carrying things in a backpack. This had two problems to it: - on hot days
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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              Even though this question was asked of Richard, I will comment anyway.

              I started out carrying things in a backpack. This had two problems to it:
              - on hot days I would get all wet under the pack
              - I could not have the backpack and have my child in a child carrier.

              To solve this problem, I purchased a rack for the back of my bike and a set
              of pannier bags. This solved problem one and gave me a great deal more
              carrying ability. However this meant that I could no longer have the child
              carrier on board. The purchase of a bike trailer solved this problem rather
              handily. I can now carry my child and a friend, a weeks groceries, and more
              in a backpack if I really need it. Or I can fill the trailer with groceries
              and carry home a north american grocery list (read as a months food).

              The results are fabulous. Although the trailer was a bit expensive, compared
              to a second car, it is rediculously cheap. My son loves to ride in the
              trailer and in fact cries on the days when it is his un-converted mother who
              DRIVES him to the baby sitter.

              And as an aside, it is amazing how many people comment on the setup when I
              ride by. So far all of these comments have been positive. I like to think
              that I am providing my son with early possitive messages about the role of
              the car.

              Henning

              ps. I haven't really used them much, but I have heard that one problem with
              loads in a basket is that it affects steering.

              >From: "Rod and Lennie Kat" <wildkingdom@...>
              >
              >The living room article you wrote suggested learning how to carry groceries
              >on a bicycle. How do you carry things like that on a bike - a basket? a
              >backpack?
              >
              >curious,
              >Lennie Dusek
              >
              >p.s. I only see cyclists around here with their tight gear on, cycling for
              >the comradery or exercise.
              >

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            • Henning Mortensen
              And of course there are the specialty courier bikes, such as those seen delivering groceries in Denmark. As far as I can tell, the primary design consideration
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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                And of course there are the specialty courier bikes, such as those seen
                delivering groceries in Denmark. As far as I can tell, the primary design
                consideration of these is the ability to carry 24*300ml cases of beer, or
                soda pop. At least the cargo bay is sized to fit these cases. Of course they
                still allow for carrying of other goods. I wish I had a picture. They are
                elongated with the cargo carrying area down low and in front of the rider.


                >From: Richard Risemberg <rickrise@...>

                >Couriers love basekts for heavy load, but I don't enjoy the way the bike
                >handles with a load up front and up high. Some British and American
                >delivery bikes have a small front wheel and a frame-mounted basket
                >that works well. See http://www.workbike.org/.
                >Richard

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              • Wong, Tim
                For what it s worth, I m a strong proponent of the bike trailer. I bought mine (a Blue Sky from Oregon) for about $270 in 1985 or 1986. I used it to transport
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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                  For what it's worth, I'm a strong proponent of the bike trailer.

                  I bought mine (a Blue Sky from Oregon) for about $270 in 1985 or 1986. I
                  used it to transport my kids to daycare and then to and from after-school
                  day care until they were old enough to ride themselves or walk. I would
                  guess I saved about $1500 in bus passes and fares from the carting the kids
                  alone.

                  Once the kids outgrew the "bugger," as ours was known, and especially after
                  I separated from my ex, who was a car-user, the trailer became my shopping
                  vehicle. In addition to the occasional trips to various places, there was
                  the weekly trip to the grocery/liquor store. I am able to carry up to two
                  cases of beer (returnable bottles, of course), as well as a week's supply of
                  groceries for me and my two kids, whom I have half-time. My trailer is not
                  one of those more limited, smaller yellow Burleis, designed, it seems, to
                  transport one kid or maybe two very small ones. These Blue Sky are big.

                  I suppose I saved another $800 in prevented bus fares from the shopping. A
                  pretty good return on my investment--another benefit of car-free living.

                  tim

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Henning Mortensen [SMTP:henning_work@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:19 AM
                  > To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] bicycling facilities
                  >
                  > The results are fabulous. Although the trailer was a bit expensive,
                  > compared
                  > to a second car, it is rediculously cheap. My son loves to ride in the
                  > trailer and in fact cries on the days when it is his un-converted mother
                  > who
                  > DRIVES him to the baby sitter.
                  >
                  > And as an aside, it is amazing how many people comment on the setup when I
                  >
                  > ride by. So far all of these comments have been positive. I like to think
                  > that I am providing my son with early possitive messages about the role of
                  >
                  > the car.
                  >
                  > Henning
                  >
                  >
                • Wade Eide
                  ... Many of us actually exercise this right every day. ... Quite. Wade Eide Montreal
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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                    On 8 Mar 2001, at 13:41, 3L wrote:

                    > Then it's better to help cyclists (and pedestrians too) to reclaim
                    > their rights ON all public roads, i.e. the right to ride and use a
                    > standard lane with no threatening to security. Not just the right on
                    > paper, but the full right to actually do so naturally with no worry or
                    > fear. This will slow car traffic and discourage driving where there is
                    > more human traffic.

                    Many of us actually exercise this right every day.

                    > Sending cyclists to dedicated paths is not the optimal solution,
                    > unless the paths cover all the cities and there is no need whatsoever
                    > to share the road with cars (overpasses or underpasses for example).

                    Quite.

                    Wade Eide
                    Montreal
                  • Mark Watson
                    Ms Lopa, I hope these help. As for creating exclusive bicycle lanes to control vehicular pollution, I think that your time & money would be much better spent
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 8, 2001
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                      Ms Lopa,

                      I hope these help. As for creating exclusive bicycle lanes to control
                      vehicular pollution, I think that your time & money would be much better
                      spent on education (of both drivers & cyclists) & on adding impediments or
                      costs to driving. I believe that if driving is not as easy/cheap/socially
                      accepted/etc., then fewer people will drive. I realize that things are
                      different here, but costly segregation engineering (i.e. bike lanes/paths)
                      in the US probably hasn't decreased pollution by any measurable amount. It
                      may get more people riding, which is good, but that just opens a spot on the
                      road for another car. (generated traffic) Not to mention that bike paths
                      that go nowhere only get driven to for recreation use.

                      http://carfree.com/link/fbik.html
                      http://www.vtpi.org/0_nmt.htm
                      http://www.bta4bikes.org/
                      http://www.ibike.org/
                      http://www.bikeleague.org
                      http://www.bikefed.org/
                      http://chainguard.org/
                      http://www.thunderheadalliance.org/thunder/
                      http://www.bicyclealliance.org
                      http://www.best.bc.ca
                      http://www.bikindex.com/bi/index.asp
                      http://dir.yahoo.com/Recreation/Sports/Cycling/Advocacy/

                      Generated traffic:
                      http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.htm
                      http://www.pirg.org/washpirg/transportation/
                      http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/transportation/congestion.asp
                      http://www.transact.org/Reports/constr99/default.htm
                      http://www.tidepool.com/alliance/facts1.html
                      http://www.vtpi.org/0_tdm.htm

                      Lennie Dusek asks:
                      >The living room article you wrote suggested learning how to carry groceries
                      >on a bicycle. How do you carry things like that on a bike - a basket?

                      I love my Oyster Buckets! http://www.cobbworks.com/
                      Townies -
                      http://www.nashbar.com/catalog/bike/get_item?bike.6663a0.NULL.1.NA-TOB.17.
                      http://www.ibike.org/trailer.htm


                      Mark

                      http://www.alaskawild.org/ (Compare the refuge pics vs. the nearby Prudhoe
                      Bay oil fields pics under "Tour the Refuge" link)

                      ----Original Message Follows----
                      From: "Lopamudra Banerjee" <lopa@rg>
                      To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [carfree_cities] bicycling facilities
                      Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:40:29 +530

                      Hello,

                      We are planning to write an article on the importance of creating
                      bicycling facilities here in Delhi to control vehicular pollution. We
                      would like to include experiences from all over the world about
                      creating exclusive bicycle lanes.


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