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RE: [carfree_cities] Re: Lying with Statistics. What is Car-Free?

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  • Lanyon, Ryan
    Is Canada the only country outside of the U.S. where Wal-Mart has established itself? Our experience began in the early 1990s when Wal-Mart bought up a dying
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2001
      Is Canada the only country outside of the U.S. where Wal-Mart has
      established itself?

      Our experience began in the early 1990s when Wal-Mart bought up a dying
      retail chain known as Woolco and remodeled all of its stores. At that time
      they didn't add much to the ugliness of the landscape, because the stores
      were already located in strip malls and shopping centres.

      Since then, Wal-Mart has added a number of new stores, particularly in the
      big box malls that are in the distant suburbs. One cartoon strip in an
      alternative newspaper chain parodies the store by calling it 'Sprawl-Mart'.

      There were some positive effects, however, when Wal-Mart entered our market.
      It gave two of our large domestic competitors, Canadian Tire and Zellers, a
      good wake up call. Stores were remodeled, prices made more competitive, and
      marketing improved. I think the end result was that Wal-Mart did not do as
      well as it expected to. Overall, however, both CT and Zellers have opened
      larger stores, in response to the greater big box trend.

      Unfortunately, since Canadian Tire and Zellers did not have a Wal-mart
      competitor in the core (at least not in Ottawa), downtown stores were
      neglected. Anyone else notice that on the basis of sales per square foot,
      downtown stores tend to do better, but are neglected when it comes time to
      update the aesthetics? Even our local Loblaws (grocery store) does this.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Stickerguy Pete [SMTP:pete@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 4:13 PM
      > To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Lying with Statistics. What is
      > Car-Free?
      >
      > When I saw a Wal-Mart in Hannover, Germany, I was stunned.
      > And totally disgusted. They're set to open in the UK too...
      > - Pete
      >
      > At 05:54 PM 01/04/2001 +0000, you wrote:
      > >--- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, Karen Sandness <ksand@t...> wrote:
      > > > My friends who live in one of Tokyo's outermost suburbs are still
      > > > car-free, but some of their neighbors have bought cars specifically
      > >so
      > > > they can shop at the local K-Mart-equivalents. (Yeah, they spend
      > >several
      > > > thousand dollars [or, more accurately, several million yen] on a
      > >car,
      > > > not to mention buying gasoline that's four times as expensive as
      > >that
      > > > sold in the States, so that they can save a few pennies at the
      > >store.
      > > > Ah, the power of advertising.) Other car-oriented development has
      > >sprung
      > > > up around these American-style strip malls. including (gag!)
      > >Denny's.
      > >
      > >What you say both saddens and angers me. I just heard that Wallmart
      > >is to open up in Japan. American business simply has no right to rip
      > >apart highly evolved and functional cultures in teh name of
      > >competition, jobs, and saving a Yen or two. Its bad enough then they
      > >already own the US Government
      > >
      > >
      > >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
      > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      > >Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
      >
      >
      > --
      > Sticker Guy! / 702 Records
      > Po Box 204 Reno NV 89504
      > ph 775-358-7865 fx 775-358-2453
      > www.stickerguy.com
      >
      > PLEASE: Quote my message in your reply!
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
      > Group address: http://www.egroups.com/group/carfree_cities/
    • J.H. Crawford
      ... alas, yes ... An awful lot of people look at transit as a means of reducing road congestion, and nothingelse. This is, indeed, a bad way to think of it.
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2001
        Karen Sandness said:

        >I haven't been to Europe for a long time, but I've read about
        >"hypermarkets" in France, which I assume require huge parking lots and
        >lead to other car-oriented businesses moving in to take advantage of the
        >automobile traffic.

        alas, yes

        >However, car-free advocates should never claim that transit projects
        >will reduce congestion. Ever. No country on earth has been able to
        >reduce traffic congestion. Instead, we should emphasize the fact that
        >transit projects and car-free developments offer *choice.*

        An awful lot of people look at transit as a means of reducing
        road congestion, and nothingelse. This is, indeed, a bad way
        to think of it. People siphoned off onto transit are almost
        certain to be replaced by other drivers, so congestion is
        little affected. This doesn't diminish the validity of transit,
        of course.

        >Now, on the matter of what constitutes a car-free city, I'm not as rigid
        >as some of the folks on this list. People visiting a car-free area are
        >most likely not car-free themselves, and they have to come from
        >*somewhere,* so having a parking garage on the edge of town is a
        >reasonable compromise.

        I've said in the book that I don't see any substitute for cars
        in rural areas. SOMEWHERE there has to be an interface between
        the carfree part of a city and the rest of the world. In Venice
        that interface is at the edge of the city, which is where I think
        it belongs.

        >BTW, I looked up information on Roosevelt Island, and it turns out that
        >there is limited auto access from the Queens side of the river, but
        >motorists are required to park and walk. I can imagine some car owners
        >coming to check out housing options on the island and then deciding that
        >they no longer need a car, given the aerial tramway connection to
        >Manhattan and the subway connection to both Manhattan and Queens.
        >According to the Web, about 30-40% of the residents of one of the major
        >housing complexes are U.N. employees. Sounds like an interesting place
        >to live.

        Anybody live near Roosevelt Island? We need "ground truth" on this one.



        ###

        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        postmaster@... Carfree.com
      • Ronald Dawson
        ... I remember that, it was amazing how fast the change over took. ... market. ... and ... Another thing is that K-Mart(in Canada) got bought out by Zellers.
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 6, 2001
          Lanyon, Ryan wrote:
          >Our experience began in the early 1990s when Wal-Mart bought up a dying
          >retail chain known as Woolco and remodeled all of its stores. At that time
          >they didn't add much to the ugliness of the landscape, because the stores
          >were already located in strip malls and shopping centres.

          I remember that, it was amazing how fast the change over took.

          >There were some positive effects, however, when Wal-Mart entered our
          market.
          >It gave two of our large domestic competitors, Canadian Tire and Zellers, a
          >good wake up call. Stores were remodeled, prices made more competitive,
          and
          >marketing improved. I think the end result was that Wal-Mart did not do as
          >well as it expected to. Overall, however, both CT and Zellers have opened
          >larger stores, in response to the greater big box trend.

          Another thing is that K-Mart(in Canada) got bought out by Zellers.
          There use to be a K-Mart about 3 miles away from where I live, after the buy
          out it closed (some K-Mart's were turned into Zellers') and then later on it
          was demolished to make way for a Canadian Tire.

          >Unfortunately, since Canadian Tire and Zellers did not have a Wal-mart
          >competitor in the core (at least not in Ottawa), downtown stores were
          >neglected. Anyone else notice that on the basis of sales per square foot,
          >downtown stores tend to do better, but are neglected when it comes time to
          >update the aesthetics? Even our local Loblaws (grocery store) does this.

          To me I find Ottawa to be some what of a mess, over the years there has been
          a lot of bad planning done by the NCC (National Capitol Commission).
          The Transitway, the idea to widen Metcalfe street, what they did to Union
          Station and etc. Does the name "Jacques Greber" ring a bell?

          In Montreal, practically integrated into the Atwater Metro station is Place
          Alexis-Nihon http://www.stcum.qc.ca/metro/images/c35.gif and there, there
          are both a Zellers and a Canadian Tire.
        • Boileau,Pierre [NCR]
          Hello All, Living in Ottawa now, I would agree that the city has not followed a logical development path. That is in part due to the fact that two entities
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 7, 2001
            Hello All,

            Living in Ottawa now, I would agree that the city has not followed a logical
            development path. That is in part due to the fact that two entities are
            responsible for urban planning in the area (NCC and the City). However,
            small steps are being taken to improve the situation (light-rail pilot,
            expansion of the transitway). My fear is that the explosive development in
            the high-tech sector will lead to an unmanageable situation in the very near
            future. Ottawa is headed towards a Toronto-style explosion if cooler heads
            do not prevail.

            Just some thoughts,

            Pierre.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ronald Dawson [mailto:rdadddmd@...]

            To me I find Ottawa to be some what of a mess, over the years there has been
            a lot of bad planning done by the NCC (National Capitol Commission).
            The Transitway, the idea to widen Metcalfe street, what they did to Union
            Station and etc. Does the name "Jacques Greber" ring a bell?



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lanyon, Ryan
            ... ...all I can say is at least the NCC built most of our recreational pathway network. I bite my tongue on the rest of their work, although the Canal has
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 8, 2001
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Ronald Dawson [SMTP:rdadddmd@...]
              > Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:24 AM
              > To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
              > Subject: [carfree_cities] Wal-Mart around the World.
              >
              > Lanyon, Ryan wrote:
              > >Unfortunately, since Canadian Tire and Zellers did not have a Wal-mart
              > >competitor in the core (at least not in Ottawa), downtown stores were
              > >neglected. Anyone else notice that on the basis of sales per square
              > foot,
              > >downtown stores tend to do better, but are neglected when it comes time
              > to
              > >update the aesthetics? Even our local Loblaws (grocery store) does this.
              >
              > To me I find Ottawa to be some what of a mess, over the years there has
              > been
              > a lot of bad planning done by the NCC (National Capitol Commission).
              > The Transitway, the idea to widen Metcalfe street, what they did to Union
              > Station and etc. Does the name "Jacques Greber" ring a bell?
              >
              ...all I can say is at least the NCC built most of our recreational
              pathway network. I bite my tongue on the rest of their work, although the
              Canal has been jammed with skaters this winter, and I even see people
              skating with briefcases to work.

              I guess when you build a capital based on a plan from 1950,
              dispersed land use and suburbanization is what you get. Unfortunately,
              we've far outgrown the Greber plan (when we jumped the Greenbelt) and the
              NCC has not devised a large, innovative and comprehenseive plan to replace
              it.
            • KarenSoutherland@AceDSL.com
              I just joined the group and live in NYC (Manhattan). I m most likely leaving there real soon for some place more livable, as hostility toward pedestrians and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 8, 2001
                I just joined the group and live in NYC (Manhattan). I'm most likely
                leaving there real soon for some place more livable, as hostility
                toward pedestrians and cyclists is too much to take anymore.

                It is true the only vehicle access to Roosevelt Island is via
                Queens. I had friends that lived there. They owned a car and parked
                in one of the many subsidized parking structures on the island (price
                lumped into their rent). To their defense there are *no* services at
                all on Roosevelt Island - no groceries, no entertainment, no food
                except one pizza parlour and one chinese take-out place. The subway
                does have one stop on Roosevelt Island (B/Q lines) and then there's
                the tram, but it can be prohibitively expensive if you have to take
                the subway from the dropoff point. It's a quiet place to live, but
                you have to leave it for everything. If you work on the east side of
                Manhattan, then Roosevelt Island can be a good option - but it is
                certainly not a haven. The city doesn't discourage people driving
                into Manhattan from Roosevelt Island (or any other parts of Brooklyn
                or Queens) as there are no tolls on any of the East River bridges.

                --- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <postmaster@c...>
                wrote: Anybody live near Roosevelt Island? We need "ground truth" on
                this one.
                >
                > Karen Sandness said:
                > > >BTW, I looked up information on Roosevelt Island, and it turns
                out that
                > >there is limited auto access from the Queens side of the river, but
                > >motorists are required to park and walk. I can imagine some car
                owners
                > >coming to check out housing options on the island and then
                deciding that
                > >they no longer need a car, given the aerial tramway connection to
                > >Manhattan and the subway connection to both Manhattan and Queens.
                > >According to the Web, about 30-40% of the residents of one of the
                major
                > >housing complexes are U.N. employees. Sounds like an interesting
                place
                > >to live.
                >
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