Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Seattle monorail.

Expand Messages
  • Mike Lacey
    my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability is probaly comprobable.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks
      like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability
      is probaly comprobable. The name of the pressure group says it
      well "rise above it all" - and presumably leave the old city to die,
      the urban renewal specialists of the 50s and 60s had similar ideas.

      Trams/Streetcars work so well because they mesh with the existing
      fabric of the city, ensuring a lively buzz at street level. San
      Francisco has a fleet of streetcars that must give and take with
      other street traffic. They are slow but always packed and as such
      they enrich the city, rather than subtract from it.

      Mike

      --- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, "Ronald Dawson" <rdadddmd@t...>
      wrote:
      > I saw this at ENN, also on the second page there is nice photo of a
      Sounder
      > commuter train.
      Dawson
      > http://www.enn.com/enn-features-
      archive/2000/10/10302000/monorail_39572.asp
    • J.H. Crawford
      ... Any notion that elevated transportation systems do not impair the quality of urban life is plain and simply nuts. Even if the things are COMPLETELY silent,
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Mike Lacey said:

        >my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks
        >like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability
        >is probaly comprobable. The name of the pressure group says it
        >well "rise above it all" - and presumably leave the old city to die,
        >the urban renewal specialists of the 50s and 60s had similar ideas.

        Any notion that elevated transportation systems do not impair the
        quality of urban life is plain and simply nuts. Even if the things
        are COMPLETELY silent, they're still ugly and intrusive. No way,
        I say.

        >Trams/Streetcars work so well because they mesh with the existing
        >fabric of the city, ensuring a lively buzz at street level. San
        >Francisco has a fleet of streetcars that must give and take with
        >other street traffic. They are slow but always packed and as such
        >they enrich the city, rather than subtract from it.

        I've never resolved this in my own mind and have come to the conclusion,
        "it depends." In some situations, street-level trams work fine,
        are reasonably quiet, and fairly safe. In bigger cities, though,
        I tend to think that we should be subways, not trams. The argument
        is especially strong if you're building a new city, because the
        costs of construction can be kept under control. Modern trams are
        mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
        in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
        version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
        issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--we're
        going to be living with the noise "forever."



        ###

        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        postmaster@... Carfree.com
      • Mike Lacey
        ... conclusion, ... Agreed, if grade seperation is necessary and viable, then underground is always the way to go ... we re ... Would you allow that there is
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <postmaster@c...>
          wrote:
          > I've never resolved this in my own mind and have come to the
          conclusion,
          > "it depends." In some situations, street-level trams work fine,
          > are reasonably quiet, and fairly safe. In bigger cities, though,
          > I tend to think that we should be subways, not trams. The argument
          > is especially strong if you're building a new city, because the
          > costs of construction can be kept under control.

          Agreed, if grade seperation is necessary and viable, then underground
          is always the way to go

          > Modern trams are
          > mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
          > in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
          > version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
          > issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--
          we're
          > going to be living with the noise "forever."

          Would you allow that there is good noise and bad noise? The resonant
          ringing of cathedral bells or the moan of a lonely foghorn are man-
          made and yet, to my ear beautiful. Maybe the same could be said of
          the whirring of a PCC streetcar or the rattle of an old SF cable car.

          MIke
        • J.H. Crawford
          ... It s a matter of definition. To me, noise is any sound that I find irritating. Not everybody agrees what constitutes noise, and different sounds can be
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 2, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Mike Lacey replied:

            >> Modern trams are
            >> mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
            >> in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
            >> version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
            >> issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--
            >> we're going to be living with the noise "forever."

            >Would you allow that there is good noise and bad noise?

            It's a matter of definition. To me, "noise" is any sound that
            I find irritating. Not everybody agrees what constitutes noise,
            and different sounds can be noise or not at different times
            and places. One of the nicest things about Venice is its acoustic
            environment. It isn't silent in Venice, but the sounds are not
            what we're used to: bells tolling the hour, the clatter of
            footsteps, porters whistling as they work, gondoliers singing
            to their customers, chattering tourists, the clink of tableware
            at an outdoor restaurant. In some places and at some times, you'll
            hear muted diesel engines in boats, which I'd call noise, although
            it doesn't especially bother me.

            A friend spent a night walking through Venice and tells of walking
            into the Piazza San Marco at about 4 in the morning and hearing
            someone playing the harmonica. Then someone else with a harmonica
            in a different key walked into the plaza and started working
            out a harmony with the other player. Where else in the world
            could that happen?

            >The resonant
            >ringing of cathedral bells or the moan of a lonely foghorn are man-
            >made and yet, to my ear beautiful.

            Try living next to a fog horn in Maine. You'd grow to hate it.
            But I agree--if the foghorn is distant and doesn't blow all
            of the time, it can be an addition, not a liability. Personally,
            I love having a clock ringing the hours, if it's not too loud.

            >Maybe the same could be said of
            >the whirring of a PCC streetcar or the rattle of an old SF cable car.

            The clatter of the controllers on a PCC car don't bother me at
            all. The screeching of wheels going around a tight curve bothers
            me always--the noise can damage hearing in some places. People
            in SF were bothered by the increased noise that the cable car shivs
            made after the reconstruction of the system in the 1980s, although
            I expect that the problems have long since been fixed.

            In short, sound is one of the most imporant variables in the
            local environment, one that we would do well to pay more attention
            to in designing cities. Same goes for smells.



            ###

            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            postmaster@... Carfree.com
          • Philip D Riggs
            The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows from 300 feet
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 2, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
              loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
              from 300 feet away it is excessive. And the high pitch whine of a
              motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
              city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
              addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
              these things cause? I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
              isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
              disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
              support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
              when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.

              *******************************
              Philip Riggs
              Colorado State University
              Fort Collins, Colorado
            • Wong, Tim
              I continue to contend that there is no more consistently irritating noise than the gas- or nuclear/coal-powered (electric) lawn mowers and their new cousins,
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 3, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                I continue to contend that there is no more consistently irritating noise
                than the gas- or nuclear/coal-powered (electric) lawn mowers and their new
                cousins, the gas-powered rakes and brooms. Most motorcycles and cars are at
                least moving, as irritating as their noise is when they're right near you.
                Compare that to your polar icecap-melting neighbor using a power lawn mower
                to mow a postage stamp-sized lawn and taking longer to do it than it takes
                me to use my brown rice-powered reel mower. As a society, we have somehow
                accepted that affront to everyone's ears within a block because it is
                "mainstream" people doing it. Imagine how soon the police would be called
                on a noise complaint if some teenagers played heavy metal or rap music for
                15 minutes at the decibel level of a gas-powered lawn mower.

                tim

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Philip D Riggs [SMTP:mrphilgood@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:54 AM
                > To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Noise
                >
                > The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
                > loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
                > from 300 feet away it is excessive. And the high pitch whine of a
                > motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
                > city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
                > addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
                > these things cause? I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
                > isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
                > disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
                > support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
                > when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.
                >
                >
              • J.H. Crawford
                ... We ve got Harleys here that are every bit as noisy as the ones in the USA. It s simply inconceivable that this sort of public insult is permitted. ... I d
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 4, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  Philip Riggs said:

                  >The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
                  >loud motorcycles.

                  We've got Harleys here that are every bit as noisy as the
                  ones in the USA. It's simply inconceivable that this sort
                  of public insult is permitted.

                  >When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
                  >from 300 feet away it is excessive.

                  I'd say it's far beyond excessive. It's an issue here, too.

                  >And the high pitch whine of a
                  >motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
                  >city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
                  >addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
                  >these things cause?

                  There is some awareness here, and some steps have been taken.
                  Some of the worst offenders here belong to the "motor-scooter"
                  class of vehicles, some of them being incredibly loud. The police
                  have stepped in here, and the situation is not as bad as it was.

                  >I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
                  >isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
                  >disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
                  >support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
                  >when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.

                  Yes, I've always said that social issues are at the heart of the
                  carfree concept, and that private cars are a major cause of
                  social isolation, for a host of reasons.


                  ###

                  J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                  postmaster@... Carfree.com
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.