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Re: [carfree_cities] Getting kids to school w/o a car

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  • Henning Mortensen
    ... Wow Chistiania Bikes!!!!! For those of you who do not know the history of these bicycles I thought I should post this. These are very special bikes!!! It
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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      >In addition, there is a company Copenhagen in called
      >http://www.christianiabikes.com/ We modeled our bike on their design
      >with some modifications. We have also looked into ordering one of
      >their bikes from England. I will give people more information if
      >they
      >are interested.


      Wow Chistiania Bikes!!!!!

      For those of you who do not know the history of these bicycles I thought I
      should post this. These are very special bikes!!!

      It all starts with a disused military barracks in the heart of Copenhagen.
      In the early seventies, a group of squatters moved into the buildings and
      declared the area, Christiania, an independent state. Of course this act of
      treason, led to huge debates in the local parliament, but lo and behold
      nothing was ever done about it. People eventually set up homes in the area,
      which although lacking in power, had a small idealistic community. A lack of
      laws in the new-found state, resulted in it becoming the hub for narcotics,
      and from what I here, the police refused to enter the city after dark.
      Although much debate over the years has centered on what to do with
      Christiania, I am happy to say that Christiania still sits in the heart of
      Copenhagen. I visited about five years ago, there are still a few idealists
      living there selling baking and assorted trinkets, and of course there is
      the house of the fellow that recognized that you needed bikes to get around
      in Christiania. Needing a special bike for a special place he invented and
      built the famous "Christiania Bike", which looks nothing like any other bike
      around.

      Amazing that they now have a web site too!


      Wow, thanks for bringing that up.

      Henning

      ps. Any errors or omissions?
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    • Roy Preston
      What do members think of the following: There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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        What do members think of the following:

        There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which
        bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
        banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the speed limit has
        been reduced to 50 mph.

        Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed last week,
        the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.

        Is this the way forward?

        Roy P(hilosophical debate)
      • Sam Christy
        What exactly is a dual-carriageway and how have these people been killed? A question to ask is how many people are killed in car only accidents. ... From: Roy
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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          What exactly is a dual-carriageway and how have these people been killed?

          A question to ask is how many people are killed in car only accidents.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Roy Preston [mailto:preston@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:56 AM
          To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
          Subject: [carfree_cities] Another death


          What do members think of the following:

          There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which
          bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
          banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the speed limit has
          been reduced to 50 mph.

          Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed last week,
          the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.

          Is this the way forward?

          Roy P(hilosophical debate)



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        • Lanyon, Ryan
          The speed limit has been reduced to 50 mph? What was it before? What type of urban design is this (suburban? 19th century?) Who is at fault for these
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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            The speed limit has been reduced to 50 mph? What was it before? What type
            of urban design is this (suburban? 19th century?)

            Who is at fault for these collisions? If motorists are, it may be an
            enforcement/education issue. If cyclists, it may be a skills/education
            issue. My bet is that banning cyclists will do nothing to address the real
            problem.

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Roy Preston [SMTP:preston@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:56 AM
            > To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
            > Subject: [carfree_cities] Another death
            >
            > What do members think of the following:
            >
            > There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which
            > bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
            > banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the speed limit
            > has
            > been reduced to 50 mph.
            >
            > Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed last week,
            > the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.
            >
            > Is this the way forward?
            >
            > Roy P(hilosophical debate)
            >
            >
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
          • Louis-Luc Le Guerrier
            ... No. If we have to ban something, then we have to ban the thing that kills the people: the cars. It s totally unacceptable to restrict the access to
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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              > What do members think of the following:
              >
              > There have been several deaths of cyclists using a
              > dual-carriageway which
              > bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
              > banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the
              > speed limit has
              > been reduced to 50 mph.
              >
              > Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed
              > last week,
              > the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.
              >
              > Is this the way forward?
              >
              No.

              If we have to ban something, then we have to ban the thing that kills the
              people: the cars. It's totally unacceptable to restrict the access to
              inoffensive bicyclists (or pedestrians) to a road. We are humans, and our
              basic need is to walk anywhere we like, or cycle. The bicycle is a vehicle
              that deserves the same right as a car, so the full access to the road.

              I suggest to lower the speed limit of cars again, maybe to 40mph, or 30mph?

              Louis-Luc

              > Roy P(hilosophical debate)
              >
            • Henning Mortensen
              Gather as many cyclists as you can and demand that they ban cars since they are the ones that cause the death. Take this opportunity to claim the rights of
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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                Gather as many cyclists as you can and demand that they ban cars since they
                are the ones that cause the death.

                Take this opportunity to claim the rights of cyclists, pedestrians, dogs,
                cats and children.


                >From: Roy Preston <preston@...>
                >Reply-To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                >To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                >Subject: [carfree_cities] Another death
                >Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:55:49 +0100
                >
                >What do members think of the following:
                >
                >There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which
                >bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
                >banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the speed limit has
                >been reduced to 50 mph.
                >
                >Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed last week,
                >the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.
                >
                >Is this the way forward?
                >
                >Roy P(hilosophical debate)
                >
                >
                >
                >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                >

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              • Louis-Luc Le Guerrier
                ... Should have said to lower the speed until there is no more cyclist or pedestrian death. If it reaches 0, then ban cars. In the worst case, 5 more cyclists
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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                  > > What do members think of the following:
                  > >
                  > > There have been several deaths of cyclists using a
                  > > dual-carriageway which
                  > > bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
                  > > banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the
                  > > speed limit has
                  > > been reduced to 50 mph.
                  > >
                  > > Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed
                  > > last week,
                  > > the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.
                  > >
                  > > Is this the way forward?
                  > >
                  > No.
                  >
                  > If we have to ban something, then we have to ban the thing
                  > that kills the
                  > people: the cars. It's totally unacceptable to restrict the access to
                  > inoffensive bicyclists (or pedestrians) to a road. We are
                  > humans, and our
                  > basic need is to walk anywhere we like, or cycle. The bicycle
                  > is a vehicle
                  > that deserves the same right as a car, so the full access to the road.
                  >
                  > I suggest to lower the speed limit of cars again, maybe to
                  > 40mph, or 30mph?
                  >
                  Should have said to lower the speed until there is no more cyclist or
                  pedestrian death. If it reaches 0, then ban cars. In the worst case, 5 more
                  cyclists will sacrifice their life for that community, assuming 10mph
                  decrements.

                  Ideally, this practice will be done on all roads. If drivers are careful
                  enough, then they can continue to access the roads without threat to other
                  road users, so drivers have the choice in their hands.

                  Louis-Luc
                  P.S. Sorry for that self-reply.
                  > Louis-Luc
                  >
                  > > Roy P(hilosophical debate)
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                  >
                • Sam Christy
                  In terms of gathering cyclist to protest the lack of adequate access for bicycles I can point people to Critical Mass at http://www.criticalmasshub.com/ These
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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                    In terms of gathering cyclist to protest the lack of adequate access for
                    bicycles I can point people to Critical Mass at
                    http://www.criticalmasshub.com/ These are bike rides that happen every
                    month all over the world - in England http://www.critmass.org.uk/ London and
                    http://www.gn.apc.org/cycling/index.html Bristol. I recently participated
                    in a car-free day bike ride where over 200 (don't quote me on the number)
                    bicyclist traveled through Boston on city streets and met at an intersection
                    that is particularly dangerous and difficult for cyclist. It was my first
                    such ride and I plan to do many more. I brought my daughter along and she
                    had a great time. She is looking forward to our next "bike parade."

                    Sam

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Henning Mortensen [mailto:henning_work@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 12:19 PM
                    To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Another death


                    Gather as many cyclists as you can and demand that they ban cars since they
                    are the ones that cause the death.

                    Take this opportunity to claim the rights of cyclists, pedestrians, dogs,
                    cats and children.


                    >From: Roy Preston <preston@...>
                    >Reply-To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                    >To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                    >Subject: [carfree_cities] Another death
                    >Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:55:49 +0100
                    >
                    >What do members think of the following:
                    >
                    >There have been several deaths of cyclists using a dual-carriageway which
                    >bisects my neighbouring town centre, so a debate ensued with talk of
                    >banning cyclists -- for their own safety. But, instead, the speed limit has
                    >been reduced to 50 mph.
                    >
                    >Tonight, I read that, because of another cyclist being killed last week,
                    >the proposal has once again been put forward to ban cyclists.
                    >
                    >Is this the way forward?
                    >
                    >Roy P(hilosophical debate)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
                    >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    >carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    >

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                    To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
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                  • Sam Christy
                    My wife and I both visited Christiania by coincidence before we met. We also found our ideal bike there by coincidence. It is a very interesting place and by
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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                      My wife and I both visited Christiania by coincidence before we met. We
                      also found our ideal bike there by coincidence. It is a very interesting
                      place and by no means perfect but it is car-free. I encourage others to
                      visit.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Henning Mortensen [mailto:henning_work@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 10:40 AM
                      To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Getting kids to school w/o a car


                      >In addition, there is a company Copenhagen in called
                      >http://www.christianiabikes.com/ We modeled our bike on their design
                      >with some modifications. We have also looked into ordering one of
                      >their bikes from England. I will give people more information if
                      >they
                      >are interested.


                      Wow Chistiania Bikes!!!!!

                      For those of you who do not know the history of these bicycles I thought I
                      should post this. These are very special bikes!!!

                      It all starts with a disused military barracks in the heart of Copenhagen.
                      In the early seventies, a group of squatters moved into the buildings and
                      declared the area, Christiania, an independent state. Of course this act of
                      treason, led to huge debates in the local parliament, but lo and behold
                      nothing was ever done about it. People eventually set up homes in the area,
                      which although lacking in power, had a small idealistic community. A lack of
                      laws in the new-found state, resulted in it becoming the hub for narcotics,
                      and from what I here, the police refused to enter the city after dark.
                      Although much debate over the years has centered on what to do with
                      Christiania, I am happy to say that Christiania still sits in the heart of
                      Copenhagen. I visited about five years ago, there are still a few idealists
                      living there selling baking and assorted trinkets, and of course there is
                      the house of the fellow that recognized that you needed bikes to get around
                      in Christiania. Needing a special bike for a special place he invented and
                      built the famous "Christiania Bike", which looks nothing like any other bike
                      around.

                      Amazing that they now have a web site too!


                      Wow, thanks for bringing that up.

                      Henning

                      ps. Any errors or omissions?
                      _________________________________________________________________________
                      Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

                      Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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                      To Post a message, send it to: carfree_cities@...
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                      carfree_cities-unsubscribe@...
                    • Roy Preston
                      Sam asked, what is a dual-carriageway, and how were the cyclists killed. A dual-carriageway is a road with two lanes in either direction. And they were killed
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 3, 2000
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                        Sam asked, what is a dual-carriageway, and how were the cyclists killed. A
                        dual-carriageway is a road with two lanes in either direction. And they
                        were killed predominantly by cars entering the dual-carriageway from a
                        slip-road.

                        Answering Ryan's questions: The speed limit has been reduced to 50 from 70
                        mph. and the road is urban 19th century.

                        Louis-Luc and Henning share my sentiments. I'm preparing a letter which, I
                        hope, will provide a reasonable argument against banning cyclists. Thanks
                        for the comments, gang.

                        Roy P(icking out the best bits)
                      • Frank Sierowski
                        ... A dual-carriageway is a road where the traffic in the two directions are physically separated by some sort of barrier. Other people might call them
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 5, 2000
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                          > What exactly is a dual-carriageway ... ?

                          A dual-carriageway is a road where the traffic in the two directions are
                          physically separated by some sort of barrier. Other people might call them
                          "divided highways". There will be 2 or more lanes in each direction.

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