Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Two takes on "green" cars

Expand Messages
  • J.H. Crawford
    Hi All, The other point that needs to be made here is that if ALL vehicles are relatively quiet, they will all be audible. It s only when there is a large
    Message 1 of 11 , May 1, 2009
      Hi All,

      The other point that needs to be made here is that
      if ALL vehicles are relatively quiet, they will all
      be audible. It's only when there is a large disparity
      between the sound levels of the vehicles that the
      quiet ones cannot be heard.

      The noise in New York City is nearly deafening. People
      who live there for any length of time yell all the time,
      as they cannot otherwise make themselves heard.

      The roar of traffic carries all the way up to the
      observation deck of the Empire State Building,
      which is nearly a thousand feet above the street.

      Best,

      Joel


      At 2009-05-01 08:37, you wrote:


      >Sorry to hear about your friend, but this seems like an accident borne of a careless driver rather than a silent car.
      >
      >Any time I see a car stopped at an intersection I think it's safe to cross, as did your friend. Since cars generally are bigger and faster than pedestrians and cyclists, you don't have much time, if any, to react to a car that decides to enter the intersection you're already in, even if you do hear an engine revving.
      >
      >--- In <mailto:carfree_cities%40yahoogroups.com>carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Jason Meggs <jmeggs@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Glad to hear the "silent" car hazard is being studied.
      >>
      >> A friend of mine who is pregnant was recently struck by a prius while riding
      >> her bicycle, injuring her sacrum and complicating her pregnancy with severe
      >> pain from the injury.
      >>
      >> The prius was stopped, evidently the driver was talking on the phone. My
      >> friend, an experienced cyclist, rode out into the intersection to cross and
      >> was suddenly on the driver's hood, then the street, didn't hear the car
      >> coming. Brings the "gun with a silencer" concern home, personally.
      >>
      >> The police still have not issued a report, months later, and I have to fear
      >> based on experience that it will be unfairly disfavorable to her.
      >>
      >> Jason
      >>
      >
      >



      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Matt Hohmeister
      Of course, NYC s high density intensifies traffic noise, but even here in Tallahassee, FL, the outdoors--save for rural areas--are also nearly deafening. It s
      Message 2 of 11 , May 1, 2009
        Of course, NYC's high density intensifies traffic noise, but even here in Tallahassee, FL, the outdoors--save for rural areas--are also nearly deafening. It's just not noticed as much because the number of pedestrians in most of the city hovers around zero. However, it's still clearly audible even inside with all the windows shut.

        Here are some other noises of interest:

        - Traffic. There's no point in the urban service area that's not close enough to a busy road to make the traffic audible--especially some motorcycles, which can be heard for miles.

        - Air conditioning compressors. I've mentioned this before, and a carfree city is likely to put them on roofs, as opposed to the American method of putting them in the worst possible locations, like apartment hallways, house balconies, or right outside bedroom windows. That is, if there's no district chilled water.

        - Two-stroke lawn-care appliances. This is a biggie, and I'm not talking about the occasional chainsaw to remove a tree that's threatening to fall. From downtown to the suburbs, lawn-care services will spend hours on end running two-stroke leaf blowers, weed trimmers, and hedge trimmers, which produce deafening amounts of noise. Even the City itself does this--no wonder nobody wants to use the downtown parks. I guess laying extension cords is just too much work. Those of you in Europe--is this a problem there too?

        - Dogs. Many residents leave their dogs outside while at work or sleeping, and they bark for hours on end. I'm wondering how carfree cities would handle this--I sure wouldn't want to live in a row house next to someone like this.

        - House parties. I've lived in student-heavy areas, and I'll say it: parties do not generate nearly as much noise as you think. My apartment's bathroom exhaust fan was probably louder inside my apartment than most nearby house parties. The real reason people call the police on house parties? The partygoers park up the street or apartment parking lot. With the only real problem caused by house parties out of the equation, no more problem here.

        - Electric tools. Air compressors and circular saws make enough noise that your neighbors will know what you're doing, but these noises are generally in short bursts and have never bothered me. Again, not a problem. Is there any easy way to contain electric tool noise from a construction site in a carfree area?

        > Hi All,
        >
        > The other point that needs to be made here is that
        > if ALL vehicles are relatively quiet, they will all
        > be audible. It's only when there is a large disparity
        > between the sound levels of the vehicles that the
        > quiet ones cannot be heard.
        >
        > The noise in New York City is nearly deafening. People
        > who live there for any length of time yell all the time,
        > as they cannot otherwise make themselves heard.
        >
        > The roar of traffic carries all the way up to the
        > observation deck of the Empire State Building,
        > which is nearly a thousand feet above the street.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Joel
      • Erik Sandblom
        ... A lot of the noise from cars is from the tyres, not the engine. I suspect tyre noise grows faster with speed than engine noise. It would be interesting to
        Message 3 of 11 , May 1, 2009
          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...> wrote:
          >
          > The other point that needs to be made here is that
          > if ALL vehicles are relatively quiet, they will all
          > be audible. It's only when there is a large disparity
          > between the sound levels of the vehicles that the
          > quiet ones cannot be heard.


          A lot of the noise from cars is from the tyres, not the engine. I
          suspect tyre noise grows faster with speed than engine noise. It would
          be interesting to know the cutoff point where more noise is coming
          from tyres.
        • J.H. Crawford
          ... In Amsterdam I almost never had a problem with this despite being surrounded by hundreds of families with doubtless dozens of dogs. The only regular
          Message 4 of 11 , May 3, 2009
            Re:

            >- Dogs. Many residents leave their dogs outside while at work or sleeping, and they bark for hours on end. I'm wondering how carfree cities would handle this--I sure wouldn't want to live in a row house next to someone like this.

            In Amsterdam I almost never had a problem with this despite
            being surrounded by hundreds of families with doubtless
            dozens of dogs. The only regular offender was... an American
            family. They denied that their dog barked.

            >- Electric tools. Air compressors and circular saws make enough noise that your neighbors will know what you're doing, but these noises are generally in short bursts and have never bothered me. Again, not a problem. Is there any easy way to contain electric tool noise from a construction site in a carfree area?

            This can be objectionable. In the new book I have called
            for limits on tools and noise levels. (Some tools are
            MUCH quieter than others.) This is a reason to concentrate
            all construction activities in a short period.

            BTW--I have been building a deck recently, and I have been
            doing all the sawing by hand. With a sharp saw, it's nowhere
            near as difficult as you might think. Of course, where to
            get a saw sharpened these days is another matter.

            Best,

            Joel




            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Matt Hohmeister
            My sister and brother-in-law--both American--have two dogs that bark very little. I guess you just have to know how to care for these very attention-hungry
            Message 5 of 11 , May 5, 2009
              My sister and brother-in-law--both American--have two dogs that bark very little. I guess you just have to know how to care for these very attention-hungry animals.

              > In Amsterdam I almost never had a problem with this despite
              > being surrounded by hundreds of families with doubtless
              > dozens of dogs. The only regular offender was... an American
              > family. They denied that their dog barked.

              I've noticed that cheap power tools tend to make a LOT more noise than their better-made counterparts. Anyone who's ever used a direct-drive air compressor vs. a belt-driven compressor has noticed this.

              I've heard proposals to regulate noise to 70 dB, measured at the property line, exception for burglar/fire/flood/temperature/etc alarms. A typical electric leaf blower is this loud at 50', ruling them out for use in most areas of a carfree city.

              > This can be objectionable. In the new book I have called
              > for limits on tools and noise levels. (Some tools are
              > MUCH quieter than others.) This is a reason to concentrate
              > all construction activities in a short period.
              >
              > BTW--I have been building a deck recently, and I have been
              > doing all the sawing by hand. With a sharp saw, it's nowhere
              > near as difficult as you might think. Of course, where to
              > get a saw sharpened these days is another matter.
              >
              > Best,
              >
              > Joel
            • Jason Meggs
              Noise is an enormous public health problem which is only just beginning to be addressed again. In the USA, the EPA s nascent Noise Control Division was
              Message 6 of 11 , May 5, 2009
                Noise is an enormous public health problem which is only just beginning to
                be addressed again.

                In the USA, the EPA's nascent Noise Control Division was remarkably gutted
                by the new Reagan Admininstration. A calculation of lives and DALYs lost
                due to that would surely be staggering. Noise kills. (One of the effects of
                that act is that transit agencies cannot specify noise as a condition for
                purchasing transit vehicles, and so transit vehicles often are many times
                louder than private vehicles in the USA. This is particularly harmful as
                transit corridors often run at night when other traffic is light, and
                through the densest population centers where the most people are exposed.)

                In Europe, noise has recently been identified as a top public health concern
                and mobilization is taking place to address it in a variety of ways, and for
                good reason:

                "About 65% of the population of the European Union is exposed regularly to
                sound levels (55-65 dB) that lead to serious annoyance, interference with
                speech, and sleep disturbance. This proportion has increased over the past
                decades.22<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1116028#B22>Very
                loud noise (65 to 75 dB) is associated with a small increase in
                cardiovascular disease, which might have a large impact on the population in
                view of the wide
                exposure.23<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1116028#B23>Furthermore,
                the attention, problem solving ability, and reading acquisition
                of children exposed regularly to aircraft noise are impaired. Noise also
                interferes with memory, attention, and the ability to deal with complex
                analytical problems.24<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1116028#B24>Transportation
                is the main source of noise in Europe, and road traffic is
                the main source of human exposure to noise, except for people living near
                airports or railway
                lines.25<http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1116028#B25>"

                http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1116028

                So yes, all onoise sources are needing a rethinking, and regulations of
                power tools, vehicles, and more are critically important to public health.

                Worth mentioning that in Berkeley, CA at least, use of private
                combustion-powered leaf blowers has been banned.

                Jason Meggs



                On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 6:25 PM, J.H. Crawford <mailbox@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                > Re:
                >
                >
                > >- Dogs. Many residents leave their dogs outside while at work or sleeping,
                > and they bark for hours on end. I'm wondering how carfree cities would
                > handle this--I sure wouldn't want to live in a row house next to someone
                > like this.
                >
                > In Amsterdam I almost never had a problem with this despite
                > being surrounded by hundreds of families with doubtless
                > dozens of dogs. The only regular offender was... an American
                > family. They denied that their dog barked.
                >
                > >- Electric tools. Air compressors and circular saws make enough noise that
                > your neighbors will know what you're doing, but these noises are generally
                > in short bursts and have never bothered me. Again, not a problem. Is there
                > any easy way to contain electric tool noise from a construction site in a
                > carfree area?
                >
                > This can be objectionable. In the new book I have called
                > for limits on tools and noise levels. (Some tools are
                > MUCH quieter than others.) This is a reason to concentrate
                > all construction activities in a short period.
                >
                > BTW--I have been building a deck recently, and I have been
                > doing all the sawing by hand. With a sharp saw, it's nowhere
                > near as difficult as you might think. Of course, where to
                > get a saw sharpened these days is another matter.
                >
                > Best,
                >
                > Joel
                >
                > ----- ### -----
                > J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                > mailbox@... <mailbox%40carfree.com> http://www.carfree.com
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.