Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Seattle monorail.

Expand Messages
  • Ronald Dawson
    In the Seattle The Stranger there is an interesting article on that cities monorail. http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature.html Dawson
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 17, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      In the Seattle "The Stranger" there is an interesting article on that cities
      monorail. http://www.thestranger.com/current/feature.html Dawson
    • Ronald Dawson
      I saw this at ENN, also on the second page there is nice photo of a Sounder commuter train. Dawson
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 31, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        I saw this at ENN, also on the second page there is nice photo of a Sounder
        commuter train. Dawson
        http://www.enn.com/enn-features-archive/2000/10/10302000/monorail_39572.asp
      • Mike Lacey
        my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability is probaly comprobable.
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks
          like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability
          is probaly comprobable. The name of the pressure group says it
          well "rise above it all" - and presumably leave the old city to die,
          the urban renewal specialists of the 50s and 60s had similar ideas.

          Trams/Streetcars work so well because they mesh with the existing
          fabric of the city, ensuring a lively buzz at street level. San
          Francisco has a fleet of streetcars that must give and take with
          other street traffic. They are slow but always packed and as such
          they enrich the city, rather than subtract from it.

          Mike

          --- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, "Ronald Dawson" <rdadddmd@t...>
          wrote:
          > I saw this at ENN, also on the second page there is nice photo of a
          Sounder
          > commuter train.
          Dawson
          > http://www.enn.com/enn-features-
          archive/2000/10/10302000/monorail_39572.asp
        • J.H. Crawford
          ... Any notion that elevated transportation systems do not impair the quality of urban life is plain and simply nuts. Even if the things are COMPLETELY silent,
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Mike Lacey said:

            >my problem with monorail is that from street level the track looks
            >like an elevated freeway and thenegative effect on street livability
            >is probaly comprobable. The name of the pressure group says it
            >well "rise above it all" - and presumably leave the old city to die,
            >the urban renewal specialists of the 50s and 60s had similar ideas.

            Any notion that elevated transportation systems do not impair the
            quality of urban life is plain and simply nuts. Even if the things
            are COMPLETELY silent, they're still ugly and intrusive. No way,
            I say.

            >Trams/Streetcars work so well because they mesh with the existing
            >fabric of the city, ensuring a lively buzz at street level. San
            >Francisco has a fleet of streetcars that must give and take with
            >other street traffic. They are slow but always packed and as such
            >they enrich the city, rather than subtract from it.

            I've never resolved this in my own mind and have come to the conclusion,
            "it depends." In some situations, street-level trams work fine,
            are reasonably quiet, and fairly safe. In bigger cities, though,
            I tend to think that we should be subways, not trams. The argument
            is especially strong if you're building a new city, because the
            costs of construction can be kept under control. Modern trams are
            mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
            in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
            version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
            issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--we're
            going to be living with the noise "forever."



            ###

            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            postmaster@... Carfree.com
          • Mike Lacey
            ... conclusion, ... Agreed, if grade seperation is necessary and viable, then underground is always the way to go ... we re ... Would you allow that there is
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 1, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In carfree_cities@egroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <postmaster@c...>
              wrote:
              > I've never resolved this in my own mind and have come to the
              conclusion,
              > "it depends." In some situations, street-level trams work fine,
              > are reasonably quiet, and fairly safe. In bigger cities, though,
              > I tend to think that we should be subways, not trams. The argument
              > is especially strong if you're building a new city, because the
              > costs of construction can be kept under control.

              Agreed, if grade seperation is necessary and viable, then underground
              is always the way to go

              > Modern trams are
              > mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
              > in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
              > version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
              > issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--
              we're
              > going to be living with the noise "forever."

              Would you allow that there is good noise and bad noise? The resonant
              ringing of cathedral bells or the moan of a lonely foghorn are man-
              made and yet, to my ear beautiful. Maybe the same could be said of
              the whirring of a PCC streetcar or the rattle of an old SF cable car.

              MIke
            • J.H. Crawford
              ... It s a matter of definition. To me, noise is any sound that I find irritating. Not everybody agrees what constitutes noise, and different sounds can be
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 2, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                Mike Lacey replied:

                >> Modern trams are
                >> mostly much noiser than necessary--listen to a 1935 PCC streetcar
                >> in good working order, especially the slightly later "all electric"
                >> version that had no compressed air system at all. Noise is a major
                >> issue, and we shouldn't forget about it just to save some money--
                >> we're going to be living with the noise "forever."

                >Would you allow that there is good noise and bad noise?

                It's a matter of definition. To me, "noise" is any sound that
                I find irritating. Not everybody agrees what constitutes noise,
                and different sounds can be noise or not at different times
                and places. One of the nicest things about Venice is its acoustic
                environment. It isn't silent in Venice, but the sounds are not
                what we're used to: bells tolling the hour, the clatter of
                footsteps, porters whistling as they work, gondoliers singing
                to their customers, chattering tourists, the clink of tableware
                at an outdoor restaurant. In some places and at some times, you'll
                hear muted diesel engines in boats, which I'd call noise, although
                it doesn't especially bother me.

                A friend spent a night walking through Venice and tells of walking
                into the Piazza San Marco at about 4 in the morning and hearing
                someone playing the harmonica. Then someone else with a harmonica
                in a different key walked into the plaza and started working
                out a harmony with the other player. Where else in the world
                could that happen?

                >The resonant
                >ringing of cathedral bells or the moan of a lonely foghorn are man-
                >made and yet, to my ear beautiful.

                Try living next to a fog horn in Maine. You'd grow to hate it.
                But I agree--if the foghorn is distant and doesn't blow all
                of the time, it can be an addition, not a liability. Personally,
                I love having a clock ringing the hours, if it's not too loud.

                >Maybe the same could be said of
                >the whirring of a PCC streetcar or the rattle of an old SF cable car.

                The clatter of the controllers on a PCC car don't bother me at
                all. The screeching of wheels going around a tight curve bothers
                me always--the noise can damage hearing in some places. People
                in SF were bothered by the increased noise that the cable car shivs
                made after the reconstruction of the system in the 1980s, although
                I expect that the problems have long since been fixed.

                In short, sound is one of the most imporant variables in the
                local environment, one that we would do well to pay more attention
                to in designing cities. Same goes for smells.



                ###

                J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                postmaster@... Carfree.com
              • Philip D Riggs
                The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows from 300 feet
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 2, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
                  loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
                  from 300 feet away it is excessive. And the high pitch whine of a
                  motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
                  city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
                  addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
                  these things cause? I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
                  isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
                  disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
                  support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
                  when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.

                  *******************************
                  Philip Riggs
                  Colorado State University
                  Fort Collins, Colorado
                • Wong, Tim
                  I continue to contend that there is no more consistently irritating noise than the gas- or nuclear/coal-powered (electric) lawn mowers and their new cousins,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 3, 2000
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I continue to contend that there is no more consistently irritating noise
                    than the gas- or nuclear/coal-powered (electric) lawn mowers and their new
                    cousins, the gas-powered rakes and brooms. Most motorcycles and cars are at
                    least moving, as irritating as their noise is when they're right near you.
                    Compare that to your polar icecap-melting neighbor using a power lawn mower
                    to mow a postage stamp-sized lawn and taking longer to do it than it takes
                    me to use my brown rice-powered reel mower. As a society, we have somehow
                    accepted that affront to everyone's ears within a block because it is
                    "mainstream" people doing it. Imagine how soon the police would be called
                    on a noise complaint if some teenagers played heavy metal or rap music for
                    15 minutes at the decibel level of a gas-powered lawn mower.

                    tim

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Philip D Riggs [SMTP:mrphilgood@...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:54 AM
                    > To: carfree_cities@egroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [carfree_cities] Noise
                    >
                    > The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
                    > loud motorcycles. When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
                    > from 300 feet away it is excessive. And the high pitch whine of a
                    > motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
                    > city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
                    > addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
                    > these things cause? I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
                    > isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
                    > disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
                    > support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
                    > when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.
                    >
                    >
                  • J.H. Crawford
                    ... We ve got Harleys here that are every bit as noisy as the ones in the USA. It s simply inconceivable that this sort of public insult is permitted. ... I d
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 4, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Philip Riggs said:

                      >The noises frustrating me most these days are loud car radios and overly
                      >loud motorcycles.

                      We've got Harleys here that are every bit as noisy as the
                      ones in the USA. It's simply inconceivable that this sort
                      of public insult is permitted.

                      >When the bass of a car system can rattle my windows
                      >from 300 feet away it is excessive.

                      I'd say it's far beyond excessive. It's an issue here, too.

                      >And the high pitch whine of a
                      >motorcycle zooming from a stop sign raises my anxiety level. I wish every
                      >city in the US would adopt some sort of noise pollution. Has Europe
                      >addressed these problems, or are Europeans more conscious of the bother
                      >these things cause?

                      There is some awareness here, and some steps have been taken.
                      Some of the worst offenders here belong to the "motor-scooter"
                      class of vehicles, some of them being incredibly loud. The police
                      have stepped in here, and the situation is not as bad as it was.

                      >I think one of the side benefits of the car is the
                      >isolation from the problems they cause. Concern for neighbor has
                      >disappeared from America. I laugh when I hear G. Bush's plan for public
                      >support of social programs. Nobody cares about the people around them
                      >when they are isolated from the problems of the poor, sick, and elderly.

                      Yes, I've always said that social issues are at the heart of the
                      carfree concept, and that private cars are a major cause of
                      social isolation, for a host of reasons.


                      ###

                      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                      postmaster@... Carfree.com
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.