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What about the weather?

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  • Don
    First time posting here. As introduction, I believe strongly in the concept of car-free cities as sane and healthy and practical and culturally imperative. I
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 1, 2008
      First time posting here.

      As introduction, I believe strongly in the concept of car-free cities
      as sane and healthy and practical and culturally imperative. I am
      currently researching the idea of walkability and remediation of
      driving necessity in community planning. One of the driving (so to
      speak) forces behind my belief in this effort is that I see the change
      back to traditional neighborhood development as THE keystone to
      solving the 'energy crisis' and the accompanying global conflicts
      resulting. i.e. Don't consume the resources (as if they are ours
      exclusively..) in the first place. I'd really like to hear the
      Presidential candidates discuss this..

      Back on topic:
      I haven't seen much discussion or consideration of how to deal with
      the weather in a human powered community. Travel on foot or bike is
      *significantly* affected by weather conditions. Except for those who
      are adventurous enough and motivated by the challenge, biking is
      unlikely to be an option for a majority of the population when it is
      raining and/or snowing or very cold. Bad weather conditions are a
      deterrent to driving, let alone walking or biking, especially when
      carrying things.

      Personally, I love being outside in all kinds of weather. I live in
      Maine. I love it. But as a practical matter, even for me the ability
      or desire to walk or bike is severely hindered by winter temperatures
      and storms in all seasons.

      What options have been considered or can we provide for these
      absolutely unavoidable circumstances?
    • Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
      IN relation to cycling, the Netherlands is mentioned very often as a place with the highest modal shares, despite the relatively wet, windy and cold weather. I
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 1, 2008
        IN relation to cycling, the Netherlands is mentioned very often as a
        place with the highest modal shares, despite the relatively wet, windy
        and cold weather. I think it is even further north than Maine, though
        warmer in winter.

        I have cycled in the cold rain in Prague, New York, San Francisco and
        Prague and Amsterdam, Groningen, and Leiden, and in the latter three
        Dutch cities cycling was so much easier - and even a pleasure - in the
        rain, because I did not have to worry about cars very much because of
        separate infrastructure or a kind of physical separateness, i.e. you
        know you will be very unlikely to get hit because the drivers plan for
        you, see you, respect you etc. And of course distances are shorter,
        density is higher...

        Sure, it helps that these places are flat, but riding up or especially
        down hills in wet weather is also much easier if you - as a cyclist - do
        not have to worry about cars rumbling by going up or right behind us
        going down.

        Still, I wonder how the weather effects the cycling modal share in the
        Netherlands.

        Walking in the rain is also MUCH easier and way more pleasurable if one
        only has to worry about puddles... whether to avoid them or dance in them.

        - T



        Don wrote:
        >
        > First time posting here.
        >
        > As introduction, I believe strongly in the concept of car-free cities
        > as sane and healthy and practical and culturally imperative. I am
        > currently researching the idea of walkability and remediation of
        > driving necessity in community planning. One of the driving (so to
        > speak) forces behind my belief in this effort is that I see the change
        > back to traditional neighborhood development as THE keystone to
        > solving the 'energy crisis' and the accompanying global conflicts
        > resulting. i.e. Don't consume the resources (as if they are ours
        > exclusively..) in the first place. I'd really like to hear the
        > Presidential candidates discuss this..
        >
        > Back on topic:
        > I haven't seen much discussion or consideration of how to deal with
        > the weather in a human powered community. Travel on foot or bike is
        > *significantly* affected by weather conditions. Except for those who
        > are adventurous enough and motivated by the challenge, biking is
        > unlikely to be an option for a majority of the population when it is
        > raining and/or snowing or very cold. Bad weather conditions are a
        > deterrent to driving, let alone walking or biking, especially when
        > carrying things.
        >
        > Personally, I love being outside in all kinds of weather. I live in
        > Maine. I love it. But as a practical matter, even for me the ability
        > or desire to walk or bike is severely hindered by winter temperatures
        > and storms in all seasons.
        >
        > What options have been considered or can we provide for these
        > absolutely unavoidable circumstances?
        >
        >


        --
        --------------------------------------------

        Todd Edelman
        Director
        Green Idea Factory

        Korunni 72
        CZ-10100 Praha 10
        Czech Republic

        Skype: toddedelman
        ++420 605 915 970
        ++420 222 517 832

        edelman@...
        http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
        www.flickr.com/photos/edelman

        Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network
        www.worldcarfree.net

        CAR is over. If you WANT it.
      • Richard Risemberg
        ... And Copenhagen has a higher share of cycling than the Dutch cities. I sell bicycle clothing for commuters, and the US cities that buy the most from me are:
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 1, 2008
          On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory wrote:

          > IN relation to cycling, the Netherlands is mentioned very often as a
          > place with the highest modal shares, despite the relatively wet, windy
          > and cold weather. I think it is even further north than Maine, though
          > warmer in winter.
          >
          > I have cycled in the cold rain in Prague, New York, San Francisco and
          > Prague and Amsterdam, Groningen, and Leiden, and in the latter three
          > Dutch cities cycling was so much easier - and even a pleasure - in the
          > rain, because I did not have to worry about cars very much because of
          > separate infrastructure or a kind of physical separateness, i.e. you
          > know you will be very unlikely to get hit because the drivers plan for
          > you, see you, respect you etc. And of course distances are shorter,
          > density is higher...


          And Copenhagen has a higher share of cycling than the Dutch cities.

          I sell bicycle clothing for commuters, and the US cities that buy the
          most from me are:

          Portland (rainy year round)
          Seattle (rainy, with occasional snow)
          Minneapolis (muggy summers, frigid winters, and yes they ride all year)
          Chicago ('nuff said)

          In Europe, my biggest sales numbers are in London (rainy) and
          Scandinavia.

          There appears to be more vehicular cycling in cold, wet places
          worldwide than in temperate ones such as Los Angeles, where I live.

          Here's Wired Magazine's list of the most cycling-friendly cities
          worldwide:

          Amsterdam
          Portland, Oregon
          Copenhagen
          Boulder, Colorado
          Davis, California
          Sandnes, Norway
          Tronheim, Norway
          San Francisco, California
          Berlin
          Barcelona
          Basel, Switzerland

          All but two either cold, wet, or both. Full article:
          http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/11/where-are-the-m.html

          And they ignored rainy Japan, the real cycling capital of the world:
          http://www.bicyclefixation.com/pe_japan.html

          In all these countries, people of all ages and all stations ride.

          And of course walking, while slower, is even easier in hard weather.

          By the way, studded snow/ice tires for bikes are common in northern
          Europe. Innova, Kenda, Nokia, Schwalbe (the last just brought out a
          new model)--that's just off the top of my head.

          Rick



          Richard Risemberg
          http://www.bicyclefixation.com
          http://www.newcolonist.com
          http://www.rickrise.com
        • Richard Risemberg
          ... The other part of this is that Joel s concept of carfree cities includes a significant metro rail component, most of it safely underground. Rick -- Richard
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 1, 2008
            On Feb 1, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Don wrote:

            > I haven't seen much discussion or consideration of how to deal with
            > the weather in a human powered community.


            The other part of this is that Joel's concept of carfree cities
            includes a significant metro rail component, most of it safely
            underground.

            Rick
            --
            Richard Risemberg
            http://www.bicyclefixation.com
            http://www.newcolonist.com
            http://www.rickrise.com







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jym Dyer
            ... =v= Maybe not here, but the bike-oriented lists are all buzzing about how to deal with the winter weather. As they do every year. Six months from now
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
              >> I haven't seen much discussion or consideration of how
              >> to deal with the weather in a human powered community.

              =v= Maybe not here, but the bike-oriented lists are all
              buzzing about how to deal with the winter weather. As
              they do every year. Six months from now it'll be about
              how to deal with the summer weather.
              <_Jym_>
            • Erik Sandblom
              ... I think it s a cultural issue. People wear too much untreated cotton! Untreated cotton absorbs water and sweat; once damp, it reduces ventilation and gets
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <fsstudio@...> wrote:
                >
                > I haven't seen much discussion or consideration of how to deal with
                > the weather in a human powered community.


                I think it's a cultural issue. People wear too much untreated cotton!

                Untreated cotton absorbs water and sweat; once damp, it reduces
                ventilation and gets cold. This explains a lot of the discomfort
                people have with weather. Cotton can work well as a shell layer if
                treated with wax or something to make it less water absorbent.

                Merino wool is a good base layer because it doesn't absorb water and
                sweat as much as cotton, and when wet or sweaty it doesn't lose its
                insulation as much as cotton does. It also gets less smelly compared
                to synthetic base layers, while being almost as soft and comfortable
                as dry cotton.

                This might come across as woodsy, but merino base layers can be worn
                under a suit or whatever. A merino base layer under a cotton dress
                shirt looks sharp and is practical. In the winter it might well allow
                you to reduce the thermostat by a degree or two, without feeling any
                colder.

                Like many people, I sit still in front of the computer during the
                day. But by wearing a wool base layer and by walking or cycling for
                transport, I don't need to bundle up as much to go outside;

                A because I get warm from the exercise, and
                B because I'm already wearing a suitable base layer.

                In the summer, a wool t-shirt is a great alternative to a cotton t-
                shirt because once a cotton t-shirt gets a little sweaty, it becomes
                airtight and just makes you sweat even more.

                Hence the term "sweatshirt"...

                So as you see, I'm a merino wool base layer evangelist.

                Erik Sandblom
              • manfrommars_43
                ... The Netherlands is also among the densest countries in population on the Earth. I did some research and they and India have almost the same density!
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                  --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Todd Edelman, Green Idea
                  Factory" <edelman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > IN relation to cycling, the Netherlands is mentioned very often as a
                  > place with the highest modal shares, despite the relatively wet,

                  The Netherlands is also among the densest countries in population on
                  the Earth. I did some research and they and India have almost the
                  same density! They are teeming with people.

                  That would mean to me, that workplaces and commerce are also
                  significantly denser and the likelihood of short commutes...the type
                  that would favor bicycles in any weather...are normal.

                  Contrast that with America will is among the less dense...where we
                  typically live 30, 50, or more miles from our workplaces. Even in the
                  best of weather, a daily bicycle commute becomes an option only for
                  the fittest.

                  If we want to move people to a human-centric technology, we have to
                  account for all aspects of the current lifestyle...both its drawbacks
                  and benefits. For example, the power of the car is freedom -- the
                  freedom to be able to work in so many places. The power to find the
                  best salary for your work, and being able to get there no matter how
                  far it is (up to a point).

                  You can't simply say "go ride a bicycle" or "take a train" unless you
                  can promise The People the same amounts of freedom and earning power
                  for their work.

                  > CAR is over. If you WANT it.

                  I wish we would move away from the term "car". Yes, I would love to
                  move away from the internal combustion engine and super heavy, super
                  dense transportation vehicles that are not very advanced in concept
                  from the hand cranked Model T's of a century ago.

                  However, I do like the idea of "independent, self-guided personal
                  transportation that does not require an external physical guide wire
                  or track" (like bicycles). I don't have problems with augmented
                  (motorized, powered) vehicles but I would prefer if they were super
                  light, and super strong. An idea is that they would (like a bike) be
                  lighter than the the things they carry (like people and groceries). I
                  don't mind computer controlled vehicles as long as owner has the
                  finally say where it can go.
                • Richard Risemberg
                  Ain t nothin better than merino wool for hot or cold weather. And ti s made of grass! (With the mediation of sheep, of course.) I ve used the wool
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                    Ain't nothin' better than merino wool for hot or cold weather. And
                    ti's made of grass! (With the mediation of sheep, of course.)

                    I've used the wool gabardine bicycling knickers I designed for
                    weather up to 100F, and my customers have worn them bicycling down to
                    22F (lower with liners). Same garment. No synthetic, nor any
                    cotton, can match that. Lets you wear fewer clothes in any weather,
                    for any type of exertion, and as Erik pointed out it takes it forever
                    to get smelly. No itch either.

                    And wool keeps you warm when it gets wet, unlike any other fabric.

                    It's almost a necessity in a human-powered transit mode. And back
                    when everyone walked everywhere, it was the universal fabric--though
                    cotton was available and cheaper.

                    Rick

                    On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Erik Sandblom wrote:

                    > Merino wool is a good base layer because it doesn't absorb water and
                    > sweat as much as cotton, and when wet or sweaty it doesn't lose its
                    > insulation as much as cotton does. It also gets less smelly compared
                    > to synthetic base layers, while being almost as soft and comfortable
                    > as dry cotton

                    --
                    Richard Risemberg
                    http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                    http://www.newcolonist.com
                    http://www.rickrise.com







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Richard Risemberg
                    Well, this is the whole point of carfree city design, isn t it? And of this list. A new set of paradigms for shaping cities, so being a slave to your car is
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                      Well, this is the whole point of carfree city design, isn't it? And
                      of this list. A new set of paradigms for shaping cities, so being a
                      slave to your car is no longer necessary. Who needs the "freedom" to
                      waste irretrievable hours sitting in traffic jams in a sensory-
                      deprivation chamber in a concrete trench, after all?

                      Rick

                      On Feb 2, 2008, at 5:00 PM, manfrommars_43 wrote:

                      > Contrast that with America will is among the less dense...where we
                      > typically live 30, 50, or more miles from our workplaces. Even in the
                      > best of weather, a daily bicycle commute becomes an option only for
                      > the fittest.
                      >
                      > If we want to move people to a human-centric technology, we have to
                      > account for all aspects of the current lifestyle...both its drawbacks
                      > and benefits. For example, the power of the car is freedom -- the
                      > freedom to be able to work in so many places. The power to find the
                      > best salary for your work, and being able to get there no matter how
                      > far it is (up to a point)

                      --
                      Richard Risemberg
                      http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                      http://www.newcolonist.com
                      http://www.rickrise.com







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Christopher Miller
                      To Rick s comments I might add that you have the same freedom with a decently designed mass transit system based on rail like in most of westen Europe. The
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                        To Rick's comments I might add that you have the same freedom with a
                        decently designed mass transit system based on rail like in most of
                        westen Europe. The eastern portion of North America ought to be able
                        to support a similar system, the only difference being that some
                        people would have to forgo the (hardly fundamental) freedom to live
                        in and commute from areas that in many if not most cases ought to be
                        productive farmland.

                        On 2-Feb-08, at 10:00 PM, Richard Risemberg wrote:

                        > Well, this is the whole point of carfree city design, isn't it? And
                        > of this list. A new set of paradigms for shaping cities, so being a
                        > slave to your car is no longer necessary. Who needs the "freedom" to
                        > waste irretrievable hours sitting in traffic jams in a sensory-
                        > deprivation chamber in a concrete trench, after all?.
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        Christopher Miller
                        Montreal QC Canada



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Erik Sandblom
                        ... Are you sure? This site asserts that 40% of US urban trips are shorter than two miles (3,2km). That takes 10-15 minutes to ride.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 2, 2008
                          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "manfrommars_43" <jabailo@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Contrast that with America will is among the less dense...where we
                          > typically live 30, 50, or more miles from our workplaces.


                          Are you sure? This site asserts that 40% of US urban trips are
                          shorter than two miles (3,2km). That takes 10-15 minutes to ride.

                          http://www.2milechallenge.com/

                          Assume you can ride up to 10km or 30 minutes, and ad in a Brompton
                          folding bike or similar, and very many commutes can be quite
                          painlessly shifted away from cars using a combination of bikes and/or
                          public transport. That's today, with the public transit and bike
                          paths available now. Assume some investment in more public transit,
                          bike paths and traffic calming, and you can do even more.

                          For those who thusly don't need the car for commuting, you can sell
                          it and get by on rentals and carpooling. That means you potentially
                          save a lot of money and can move to a better location with shorter
                          commutes and a better lifestyle.

                          Erik Sandblom
                        • Richard Risemberg
                          ... Indeed, and there are much cheaper folders than Bromptons--Dahon has vastly expanded its line, and you see them all over LA, which is among the least
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 3, 2008
                            On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Erik Sandblom wrote:

                            > > Contrast that with America will is among the less dense...where we
                            > > typically live 30, 50, or more miles from our workplaces.
                            >
                            > Are you sure? This site asserts that 40% of US urban trips are
                            > shorter than two miles (3,2km). That takes 10-15 minutes to ride.
                            >
                            > http://www.2milechallenge.com/
                            >
                            > Assume you can ride up to 10km or 30 minutes, and ad in a Brompton
                            > folding bike or similar, and very many commutes can be quite
                            > painlessly shifted away from cars using a combination of bikes and/or
                            > public transport. That's today, with the public transit and bike
                            > paths available now. Assume some investment in more public transit,
                            > bike paths and traffic calming, and you can do even more.

                            Indeed, and there are much cheaper folders than Bromptons--Dahon has
                            vastly expanded its line, and you see them all over LA, which is
                            among the least bike-friendly city in the US. In fact, you see bikes
                            of all sorts in increasing numbers, and--what I find most
                            encouraging--a great number of them being ridden by pudgy middle-aged
                            and older folks, with rear bags carrying purchases, even in cold and
                            often enough even in rain.

                            Parts of LA, such as Pico-Union, have higher population densities
                            than NYC.

                            It's the far suburbs that are untenable--but the suburban paradigm is
                            a travesty of habitation, unsustainable, unsociable, and a drain on
                            civic treasuries. Carfree.com proposes new ways of shaping cities so
                            that we are not compelled to be wasteful.

                            However, all major cities can reduce car usage within their present
                            infrastructures by very simple means. Here are some articles of mien
                            on the issue:

                            http://bicyclefixation.com/switch.htm
                            http://bicyclefixation.com/convenience.htm
                            http://bicyclefixation.com/suburbs.htm
                            http://www.bicyclefixation.com/mainstreet.htm

                            Rick
                            --
                            Richard Risemberg
                            http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                            http://www.newcolonist.com
                            http://www.rickrise.com







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Laura
                            I think why the whater isn t a problem.In Brasil, for example, a tropical continet, bikes are used for esport, in the weekends . I say this because I live in
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 3, 2008
                              I think why the whater isn't a problem.In Brasil, for example, a tropical
                              continet, bikes are used for esport, in the weekends . I say this because I
                              live in Porto Alegre. The city is relative plane. But we doesn't have the
                              culture to use bike whit a modal transport.
                              Further more: we doesn't have streets designed for bikes, or bikepark.
                              Other reason is the insecurity on the traffic. The mortality of the
                              motorcyclist growing 83% in for years , in the same time the deaths of
                              pedestrian decreased 9%.
                              Estatistics of the bikers are inaccurate, hardly existed.
                              <http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/interna/0,,OI2287425-EI306,00.htm>

                              Look ours "ciclovia" at this picture

                              Laura


                              2008/2/3, Richard Risemberg <rickrise@...>:
                              >
                              > On Feb 2, 2008, at 8:59 PM, Erik Sandblom wrote:
                              >
                              > > > Contrast that with America will is among the less dense...where we
                              > > > typically live 30, 50, or more miles from our workplaces.
                              > >
                              > > Are you sure? This site asserts that 40% of US urban trips are
                              > > shorter than two miles (3,2km). That takes 10-15 minutes to ride.
                              > >
                              > > http://www.2milechallenge.com/
                              > >
                              > > Assume you can ride up to 10km or 30 minutes, and ad in a Brompton
                              > > folding bike or similar, and very many commutes can be quite
                              > > painlessly shifted away from cars using a combination of bikes and/or
                              > > public transport. That's today, with the public transit and bike
                              > > paths available now. Assume some investment in more public transit,
                              > > bike paths and traffic calming, and you can do even more.
                              >
                              > Indeed, and there are much cheaper folders than Bromptons--Dahon has
                              > vastly expanded its line, and you see them all over LA, which is
                              > among the least bike-friendly city in the US. In fact, you see bikes
                              > of all sorts in increasing numbers, and--what I find most
                              > encouraging--a great number of them being ridden by pudgy middle-aged
                              > and older folks, with rear bags carrying purchases, even in cold and
                              > often enough even in rain.
                              >
                              > Parts of LA, such as Pico-Union, have higher population densities
                              > than NYC.
                              >
                              > It's the far suburbs that are untenable--but the suburban paradigm is
                              > a travesty of habitation, unsustainable, unsociable, and a drain on
                              > civic treasuries. Carfree.com proposes new ways of shaping cities so
                              > that we are not compelled to be wasteful.
                              >
                              > However, all major cities can reduce car usage within their present
                              > infrastructures by very simple means. Here are some articles of mien
                              > on the issue:
                              >
                              > http://bicyclefixation.com/switch.htm
                              > http://bicyclefixation.com/convenience.htm
                              > http://bicyclefixation.com/suburbs.htm
                              > http://www.bicyclefixation.com/mainstreet.htm
                              >
                              > Rick
                              > --
                              > Richard Risemberg
                              > http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                              > http://www.newcolonist.com
                              > http://www.rickrise.com
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Don
                              ... Well, I want to reiterate my initial question, with clarification, I guess. I understand that bicycling *is* possible in harsh weather, and that there are
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 6, 2008
                                --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Richard Risemberg
                                <rickrise@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Ain't nothin' better than merino wool for hot or cold weather. And
                                > ti's made of grass! (With the mediation of sheep, of course.)
                                >
                                > I've used the wool gabardine bicycling knickers I designed for
                                > weather up to 100F, and my customers have worn them bicycling down to
                                > 22F (lower with liners). Same garment. No synthetic, nor any
                                > cotton, can match that. Lets you wear fewer clothes in any weather,
                                > for any type of exertion, and as Erik pointed out it takes it forever
                                > to get smelly. No itch either.
                                >
                                > And wool keeps you warm when it gets wet, unlike any other fabric.
                                >
                                > It's almost a necessity in a human-powered transit mode. And back
                                > when everyone walked everywhere, it was the universal fabric--though
                                > cotton was available and cheaper.
                                >
                                > Rick
                                >
                                > On Feb 2, 2008, at 3:56 PM, Erik Sandblom wrote:
                                >
                                > > Merino wool is a good base layer because it doesn't absorb water and
                                > > sweat as much as cotton, and when wet or sweaty it doesn't lose its
                                > > insulation as much as cotton does. It also gets less smelly compared
                                > > to synthetic base layers, while being almost as soft and comfortable
                                > > as dry cotton
                                >
                                > --
                                > Richard Risemberg
                                > http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                                > http://www.newcolonist.com
                                > http://www.rickrise.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                Well, I want to reiterate my initial question, with clarification, I
                                guess. I understand that bicycling *is* possible in harsh weather,
                                and that there are all kinds of clothing and equipment options, but my
                                question/prompt is not about the people who do or will ride a bike.
                                While there definitely can be more people riding than currently do,
                                there is a percentage of the population who *can't* ride, or won't,
                                for one reason or another. This is the part of the population I am
                                thinking about.

                                Understand that this is not intended as an argument against biking or
                                walking; instead it is a request for comment and discussion about what
                                can be designed to fully accommodate as many people as possible in all
                                types of weather in some reasonable way. i.e. Filling in the gaps so
                                we can provide support for the largest possible percentage of the
                                population in a carfree environment, thereby making the idea more
                                appealing to more people.

                                Ideas already in the mix
                                - bike paths, racks, change areas, showers, etc.
                                - walking paths, parks, with short walks to transit
                                - transit lines that are efficient and accommodating and safe

                                Weather/temperature/nighttime ?
                                - covered walk ways?
                                - over/underground pathways; subway without the train?
                                - other people moving systems?

                                What do you know, what do you think?

                                Don
                              • Tuomo Valkonen
                                ... Skis. I would love to move relatively short (and not too hilly... but there s already a well-tested solution to that) distances by skis in the winter[*].
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
                                  On 2008-02-07, Don <fsstudio@...> wrote:
                                  > Weather/temperature/nighttime ?
                                  > - covered walk ways?
                                  > - over/underground pathways; subway without the train?
                                  > - other people moving systems?

                                  Skis.

                                  I would love to move relatively short (and not too hilly... but
                                  there's already a well-tested solution to that) distances by skis
                                  in the winter[*]. Skiing is faster than walking, but not as chilly
                                  as bicycling, demanding more warming motion (unfortunately meaning
                                  it's also more sweaty business). Another nice thing about skis is
                                  that it's easy to carry them in (the hypothetical) public transport,
                                  unlike bicycles. They also don't demand so much "parking" space,
                                  if any.

                                  But presently skiing has been reduced from an utility sport into mere
                                  entertainment and fitness even more so than bicycling: you can't well
                                  ski anywhere in cities (around here anyway), because all the paths are
                                  gritted, and intersect the dry asphalt where the metal cages live.

                                  Given a wide bicycle bouleward as in the Reference Design, I think
                                  even half (one lane) of it should be reserved for skiing in the
                                  winter (skating style space in the middle, plus classic tracks to
                                  each direction on both sides of it), assuming there's going to be
                                  any winters anymore. On other streets there could also be at least
                                  a single classic skiing track, but skating style demands too much
                                  space in most places.

                                  ---

                                  [*] I define winter as "when there's snow". These past two years
                                  there hasn't been much of a winter. Even now it's about +1C and
                                  something wet is falling from the skies, wheras typically the
                                  temperatures at this time of the year can reach -30C or so. One
                                  really annoying effect of snowless non-winter is that the metal
                                  cages still have studded tyres under them, and without snow and
                                  ice for the studs to bite into, and snow to act as a dampener,
                                  the noise levels are simply infernal.

                                  At those -30C tempatures, and over relatively short distances (of
                                  less than 5km or so), I've actually found the major challenges to
                                  bicycling to be not the so much the cold as such, but a) failing
                                  equipment, such a crankarms cracking, b) having to leave the bicycle
                                  outside for the day, so that the gears, breaks, and the chain
                                  freeze over, c) trying to avoid losing the breath, because
                                  breathing gets difficult in the cold air.

                                  In fact, the worst time for bicycling is when the snow starts
                                  melting, which hasn't recently been restricted to the spring.
                                  Then you're practically swimming in the slush, because road
                                  maintenance takes precedence if there's any multi-use path
                                  maintenance at all -- no proper bicycle paths here -- and the
                                  slush from the road just gets pushed on these paths. Also
                                  during the winter the snow from the road is piled on the
                                  sides of the multi-use path, making it even narrower, and
                                  adding to the slush.

                                  --
                                  Tuomo
                                • Doug Salzmann
                                  Folks, we need to get back to the real world, here. In the real world, some 30% to 40% of the population (depending upon what studies you accept) is at least
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
                                    Folks, we need to get back to the real world, here.

                                    In the real world, some 30% to 40% of the population (depending upon
                                    what studies you accept) is at least partially disabled
                                    (mobility-impaired) for some period of time during an average year.

                                    As the saying goes, it happens; and it doesn't take much.

                                    How far will you ski with a raging headache? Cycle with a sprained
                                    ankle, or on a creaky day when you're 83 years old? Roller skate in a
                                    buffalo herd?

                                    The answer is, "Not very far," and should probably taken as about the
                                    same as the "design distance" between home or work and the nearest
                                    transit halt.

                                    Cycling, skiing, small-wheeled transport -- all are fine for those who
                                    desire to, and are able to, use them (provided they don't threaten or
                                    intrude upon pedestrian movement), but they cannot be relied upon by an
                                    entire population.

                                    The answers to the carfree mobility problem are in the design of the
                                    built environment and the design and operation of the transit system.
                                    Both are covered rather comprehensively in Joel's book.


                                    -Doug


                                    Tuomo Valkonen wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 2008-02-07, Don <fsstudio@...
                                    > <mailto:fsstudio%40suscom-maine.net>> wrote:
                                    > > Weather/temperature/nighttime ?
                                    > > - covered walk ways?
                                    > > - over/underground pathways; subway without the train?
                                    > > - other people moving systems?
                                    >
                                    > Skis.
                                    >
                                    > I would love to move relatively short (and not too hilly... but
                                    > there's already a well-tested solution to that) distances by skis
                                    > in the winter[*]. Skiing is faster than walking, but not as chilly
                                    > as bicycling, demanding more warming motion (unfortunately meaning
                                    > it's also more sweaty business). Another nice thing about skis is
                                    > that it's easy to carry them in (the hypothetical) public transport,
                                    > unlike bicycles. They also don't demand so much "parking" space,
                                    > if any.



                                    --
                                    ==========================
                                    Doug Salzmann
                                    Post Office Box 378
                                    Tiburon, California 94920
                                    USA

                                    <doug@...>
                                  • Richard Risemberg
                                    ... Agreed. However, I think the original poster was referring to a human-powered city, which would indicate no mass transit either. Not practical, except for
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
                                      On Feb 7, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Doug Salzmann wrote:

                                      > The answers to the carfree mobility problem are in the design of the
                                      > built environment and the design and operation of the transit system.
                                      > Both are covered rather comprehensively in Joel's book.


                                      Agreed. However, I think the original poster was referring to a
                                      human-powered city, which would indicate no mass transit either. Not
                                      practical, except for fairly small villages.

                                      Also (and this is something I have gone over on the Urban Ecology
                                      list at length), we have to consider that survival and cultural
                                      continuation require that we live in harmony with the weather. This
                                      means traveling less in winter, not requiring accommodation so that
                                      we can travel when we are sick or injured, not having cheap tomatoes
                                      in January in the northern hemisphere, etc. Maybe not living in some
                                      places that just require to much energy comfortably to accommodate
                                      humans.

                                      On the other hand, a largely human-powered city, which means in real
                                      life mostly walking and bicycling, has been shown statistically to
                                      reduce disability throughout life. In Japan and northern Europe,
                                      people bicycle quite unheroically through the winter at advanced
                                      ages, as well as very young ages.

                                      And even now, even in the US, cyclists live longer and are disabled
                                      less frequently than the general population, despite the perception
                                      of inconvenience and danger. If I recall the Fed's stats on
                                      accidents correctly, the death rate per million miles traveled is
                                      very slightly less for cyclists than for motorists.

                                      In Copenhagen, where well over 30% of all utility trips are done on
                                      bicycles, and no one wears helmets, there were only six deaths from
                                      cycling accidents in 2006. Copenhageners cycle over 1,000,000 kms
                                      daily on average. This despite snow, rain, cold, and cars. Only 17%
                                      of Copenhageners cycle for "exercise or recreation"; the rest is
                                      utility riding.

                                      Here's a link to the (PDF) report from Copenhagen's city government:
                                      http://www.sfbike.org/download/copenhagen/bicycle_account_2006.pdf

                                      There is a tram system there; does anyone on this list know whether
                                      they have a metro?

                                      Rick
                                      --
                                      Richard Risemberg
                                      http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                                      http://www.newcolonist.com
                                      http://www.rickrise.com







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Erik Sandblom
                                      ... on ... from ... 17% ... whether ... They have a lovely new driverless metro, and you can even take bikes on it! Full size, non-folding, perfectly normal
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
                                        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Richard Risemberg
                                        <rickrise@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > In Copenhagen, where well over 30% of all utility trips are done
                                        on
                                        > bicycles, and no one wears helmets, there were only six deaths
                                        from
                                        > cycling accidents in 2006. Copenhageners cycle over 1,000,000 kms
                                        > daily on average. This despite snow, rain, cold, and cars. Only
                                        17%
                                        > of Copenhageners cycle for "exercise or recreation"; the rest is
                                        > utility riding.
                                        >
                                        > Here's a link to the (PDF) report from Copenhagen's city government:
                                        > http://www.sfbike.org/download/copenhagen/bicycle_account_2006.pdf
                                        >
                                        > There is a tram system there; does anyone on this list know
                                        whether
                                        > they have a metro?


                                        They have a lovely new driverless metro, and you can even take bikes
                                        on it! Full size, non-folding, perfectly normal bikes: Pictures:

                                        http://eriksandblom.blogspot.com/2007/12/kbenhavn-2.html
                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro

                                        Erik Sandblom
                                      • Erik Sandblom
                                        ... upon ... This is news to me. Where can I read more about it? Not having read the studies you refer to, I suspect this thinking is part of a mentality which
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 7, 2008
                                          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Doug Salzmann <doug@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Folks, we need to get back to the real world, here.
                                          >
                                          > In the real world, some 30% to 40% of the population (depending
                                          upon
                                          > what studies you accept) is at least partially disabled
                                          > (mobility-impaired) for some period of time during an average year.



                                          This is news to me. Where can I read more about it?

                                          Not having read the studies you refer to, I suspect this thinking is
                                          part of a mentality which says that self-locomotion like walking,
                                          cycling or skiing is terribly strenuous and tiring. I find I can do
                                          15-30 minutes of gentle walking or cycling per day, even if I have a
                                          fever. It makes me more tired than when I'm not sick, but what
                                          doesn't? If I can't even do that, I don't have the energy to leave
                                          the apartment anyway.

                                          Cycling along a bike path with little or no car traffic is hardly
                                          more strenuous than riding a crowded, noisy subway train and having
                                          to stand and hold on.

                                          Another suspicion I have is that people might not connect/listen to
                                          their bodies to determine how much effort they can afford while sick.
                                          I can see lying down for five minutes at work if you cycled there
                                          with a fever. That's a good way to check that you don't overextend
                                          yourself. If you fall asleep deeply, you probably needed to sleep :-)

                                          Skiing to work is not as far-fetched as it sounds. In Ottawa, Canada,
                                          the canal freezes and people can skate to work.
                                          http://www.ottawakiosk.com/skating.html
                                          http://www.google.com/search?q=ottawa+skate+to+work


                                          > Cycling, skiing, small-wheeled transport -- all are fine for those
                                          who
                                          > desire to, and are able to, use them (provided they don't threaten
                                          or
                                          > intrude upon pedestrian movement), but they cannot be relied upon
                                          by an
                                          > entire population.
                                          >
                                          > The answers to the carfree mobility problem are in the design of
                                          the
                                          > built environment and the design and operation of the transit
                                          system.
                                          > Both are covered rather comprehensively in Joel's book.


                                          As I recall, the book doesn't mention people who are sick. Or does it
                                          mention electric wheelchairs? It does mention the 760m diametre of
                                          each district and that going anywhere will require 5-10 minutes of
                                          walking plus up to 25 minutes of riding the subway. I believe this is
                                          comparable to 10-20 minutes of walking, cycling or skiing. 20 minutes
                                          of sedate cycling will get you about five km or three miles. 40% of
                                          urban travel in the USA is shorter than two miles.
                                          http://www.2milechallenge.com/home.html

                                          So I believe cycling, walking and skiing has potential even when you
                                          are sick with a fever.

                                          Erik Sandblom
                                        • Don
                                          ... . I want to clarify that I didn t intend for this discussion to apply only to places without mass transit. Not at all. That is just one of the many
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 9, 2008
                                            >
                                            > Agreed. However, I think the original poster was referring to a
                                            > human-powered city, which would indicate no mass transit either. Not
                                            > practical, except for fairly small villages.
                                            .
                                            I want to clarify that I didn't intend for this discussion to apply
                                            only to places without mass transit. Not at all. That is just one of
                                            the many destinations that must be reachable by walking/biking.


                                            > Cycling, skiing, small-wheeled transport -- all are fine for those
                                            > who desire to, and are able to, use them (provided they don't
                                            > threaten or intrude upon pedestrian movement), but they cannot be
                                            > relied upon by an entire population.

                                            This is right to my point and the crux of my question. All that
                                            everyone here has said about the ability to bike in weather, the
                                            benefits to general health, the percentage of this or that in whatever
                                            city, are all very true and very important. But Doug gets the
                                            question. What about everyone else, no matter what percentage they
                                            are? Everyone lives here (wherever we are), and, again, I wonder
                                            about what accommodations have been considered for times when, by
                                            choice or necessity, walking/biking is not the mode of choice.. I am
                                            really fishing for alternatives for inescapable hinderances like
                                            weather or disability or age. I wanted to pose the question and throw
                                            my ideas out there to invite others' creative thoughts and
                                            discoveries, not just rationale for ped/bike use, which needs no
                                            justification.

                                            > Here's a link to the (PDF) report from Copenhagen's city government:
                                            > http://www.sfbike.org/download/copenhagen/bicycle_account_2006.pdf
                                            .
                                            .
                                            > They have a lovely new driverless metro, and you can even take bikes
                                            > on it! Full size, non-folding, perfectly normal bikes: Pictures:
                                            >
                                            > http://eriksandblom.blogspot.com/2007/12/kbenhavn-2.html
                                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro

                                            Thanks for the links. The Copenhagen bike pdf is very interesting.
                                            Great metro idea! (Copenhagen seems to really have its sh*t together
                                            on this!) Light rail is a key element in the granularity of
                                            transportation infrastructure. I have seen other references to 'people
                                            movers', an even more fine grained mass transit solution, but possibly
                                            too expensive in many cases.

                                            Another weather interdiction strategy I saw recently, right out of
                                            antiquity (duh), was to include arcades along pedestrian ways.

                                            Don
                                          • Richard Risemberg
                                            ... That s what community and family are for, and social and government structures that value help given to the incapacitated--and values it not only in
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 10, 2008
                                              On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:27 PM, Don wrote:

                                              > But Doug gets the
                                              > question. What about everyone else, no matter what percentage they
                                              > are? Everyone lives here (wherever we are), and, again, I wonder
                                              > about what accommodations have been considered for times when, by
                                              > choice or necessity, walking/biking is not the mode of choice


                                              That's what community and family are for, and social and government
                                              structures that value help given to the incapacitated--and values it
                                              not only in speeches but in hard cash, say, in payments to family
                                              members who are helping an aged relative or disabled child, or to
                                              caregivers who can push a wheelchair (perhaps a wheelchair that
                                              doubles as a bicycle trailer), without the air of disparagement
                                              towards such helpers, whether voluntary or paid, that the present
                                              competitive society imposes.

                                              Anyway, it's way easier to get a wheelchair onto any metro train here
                                              in LA than it is to get it into a car. In fact, it's easier to get it
                                              onto a bus equipped with the (required) lift than to jockey it into a
                                              car, and then get your disabled self in to drive it.

                                              And as a motorcyclist throughout my twenties, I've done crutch time too.

                                              Rick
                                              --
                                              Richard Risemberg
                                              http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                                              http://www.newcolonist.com
                                              http://www.rickrise.com







                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • kyle3054
                                              ... I was recently told by a person that public transport will never be widely accepted because it can never be door-to-door. I said, it can never be
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                "Erik Sandblom" <eriksandblom@...> wrote:

                                                > Not having read the studies you refer to, I suspect this thinking is
                                                > part of a mentality which says that self-locomotion like walking,
                                                > cycling or skiing is terribly strenuous and tiring.

                                                I was recently told by a person that public transport will never be
                                                widely accepted because "it can never be door-to-door." I said, "it
                                                can never be door-to-door, but in most of a city it should be able to
                                                get you within 1km of where you want to go, 15 minutes' walk is not
                                                going to cause you great suffering."

                                                Cheers,
                                                Kyle
                                                http://greenwithagun.blogspot.com/
                                              • Christopher Miller
                                                When you really think about door to door transport, it really turns out to be something of a canard. Sure, we endlessly hear from those who fervently believe
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                  When you really think about "door to door" transport, it really turns
                                                  out to be something of a canard.

                                                  Sure, we endlessly hear from those who fervently believe in the
                                                  advantages of private automobiles that they are so much more
                                                  "convenient" and get you from door to door etc. Fact is, in most
                                                  cases, the only door you are more or less assured of getting to
                                                  directly with a car is either your suburban detached home or your in-
                                                  town duplex or triplex. If you live iin an apartment building you
                                                  have to travel between your door and either the parking garage or
                                                  where it is sitting out there in the parking lot or somewhere most
                                                  likely down the street. And when it comes to directions, whether you
                                                  are shopping at a mall, going to work or visiting someone, most of
                                                  the time you have to park it way away from the "door" in question and
                                                  walk for a minute or two between the car and said entrance, or if you
                                                  are in town, you have to park somewhere down the road, away on
                                                  another nearby street, or in a parking lot some way away and -- again
                                                  -- walk the distance to the door at the end of your itinerary. Which
                                                  is more enjoyable/taxing, I wonder, a three or four minute walk
                                                  between the bus/tram/metro stop and your house/shopping/work/school,
                                                  or a probably equivalent walk between your car and a similar
                                                  destination?

                                                  To look briefly at the flip side of the coin, public transit does not
                                                  necessarily entail long walks to or from the stop: in many cases, you
                                                  do end up pretty close to your destination door the way most bus
                                                  stops are spaced (at least in more built up areas). And of course, by
                                                  bicycle or other human powered transport modes, you have a way better
                                                  chance of starting from the origin door and ending up pretty close to
                                                  the destination door, and in where you can combine this with public
                                                  transit, the advantage gets even better for longer distances.

                                                  There certainly is a "by the door" advantage for drivers living in
                                                  relatively low density housing, but I would venture to say that the
                                                  "by the door" advantage is probably with public transit users once in
                                                  town...



                                                  Anyone seeing weaknesses in my viewpoint is of course welcome to
                                                  challenge them, but I think this contrary viewpoint is worth
                                                  following up: has anyone actually done studies of relative "door to
                                                  door" convenience of different transportation modes, taking into
                                                  account the nature of the home base and the destination?


                                                  On 16-Feb-08, at 6:29 AM, kyle3054 wrote:

                                                  > "Erik Sandblom" <eriksandblom@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Not having read the studies you refer to, I suspect this thinking is
                                                  > > part of a mentality which says that self-locomotion like walking,
                                                  > > cycling or skiing is terribly strenuous and tiring.
                                                  >
                                                  > I was recently told by a person that public transport will never be
                                                  > widely accepted because "it can never be door-to-door." I said, "it
                                                  > can never be door-to-door, but in most of a city it should be able to
                                                  > get you within 1km of where you want to go, 15 minutes' walk is not
                                                  > going to cause you great suffering."
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers,
                                                  > Kyle
                                                  > http://greenwithagun.blogspot.com/
                                                  >


                                                  Christopher Miller
                                                  Montreal QC Canada



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • manfrommars_43
                                                  ... Except when you are transporting things such as groceries, furniture, clothing and so on. The car is not just a people transport, it s a truck for bringing
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                    --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "kyle3054" <KyleSchuant@...> wrote:

                                                    > as recently told by a person that public transport will never be
                                                    > widely accepted because "it can never be door-to-door." I said, "it
                                                    > can never be door-to-door, but in most of a city it should be able to
                                                    > get you within 1km of where you want to go, 15 minutes' walk is not
                                                    > going to cause you great suffering."

                                                    Except when you are transporting things such as groceries, furniture,
                                                    clothing and so on.

                                                    The car is not just a people transport, it's a truck for bringing in
                                                    the goods to the home.

                                                    That's one of the big omissions in thinking in carfree design, they
                                                    are not accounting for the vast economic efficiencies of letting
                                                    individuals make the last mile transport of goods to the home. This
                                                    has lead to very efficient constructs such as the warehouse store.
                                                  • J.H. Crawford
                                                    ... A week spent in Manhattan would reveal that most people don t use cars to transport groceries and clothing. (Most people don t even have cars.) Small carts
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                      A recent posting says, regarding public transport convenience:

                                                      >Except when you are transporting things such as groceries, furniture,
                                                      >clothing and so on.

                                                      A week spent in Manhattan would reveal that most people
                                                      don't use cars to transport groceries and clothing. (Most
                                                      people don't even have cars.) Small carts are used for heavy
                                                      loads of groceries, and furniture is delivered.

                                                      >The car is not just a people transport, it's a truck for bringing in
                                                      >the goods to the home.

                                                      It's one way to do it, yes.

                                                      >That's one of the big omissions in thinking in carfree design, they
                                                      >are not accounting for the vast economic efficiencies of letting
                                                      >individuals make the last mile transport of goods to the home. This
                                                      >has lead to very efficient constructs such as the warehouse store.

                                                      Actually, the big box stores are very INefficient, because they
                                                      require people to drive vast distances to use them. (They cannot
                                                      survive without huge catchment areas.) So, they offer very low
                                                      prices, but at the cost of externalizing huge transport costs
                                                      to the larger society. WalMart's "greening" is just window dressing.
                                                      The only way to green WalMart is to close it.

                                                      Best,

                                                      Joel




                                                      ----- ### -----
                                                      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
                                                      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
                                                    • Richard Risemberg
                                                      ... Last year we got a large armoire from my wife s sister. Between my wife, her sister, and the sister s boyfriend, they own I think 5 cars, two of which are
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                        On Feb 16, 2008, at 2:00 PM, manfrommars_43 wrote:

                                                        > Except when you are transporting things such as groceries, furniture,
                                                        > clothing and so on.
                                                        >
                                                        > The car is not just a people transport, it's a truck for bringing in
                                                        > the goods to the home.
                                                        >
                                                        > That's one of the big omissions in thinking in carfree design, they
                                                        > are not accounting for the vast economic efficiencies of letting
                                                        > individuals make the last mile transport of goods to the home. This
                                                        > has lead to very efficient constructs such as the warehouse store.


                                                        Last year we got a large armoire from my wife's sister. Between my
                                                        wife, her sister, and the sister's boyfriend, they own I think 5
                                                        cars, two of which are SUVs. None of them could carry the armoire,
                                                        so we rented a van.

                                                        I shopped for groceries for a family of three for years on a standard
                                                        bicycles with dedicated grocery carryalls attached to the rack. An
                                                        Xtracycle (cheap attachments to stretch a standard mountain bike)can
                                                        carry six bags of groceries. A Dutch bakfiets ("box bike") can carry
                                                        three kids and two adults, or a few bags of cement; a longjohn cargo
                                                        bike can carry a washing machine.

                                                        Bikes at Work in Iowa runs a year-round haulage service using their
                                                        own design of bicycle cargo trailers to carry loads approaching 1,000
                                                        pounds.

                                                        Okay, you can't ride a bicycle at all--your religion prohibits it.
                                                        Okay,ka s Joel has pointed out in his book, you have cheap electric
                                                        pallet jack rentals at Metro stops for precisely that purpose. Bring
                                                        'em back the next day, or pass the rental on to someone else, using
                                                        the management systems developed for the Paris VeloLib bike rental
                                                        system.

                                                        Quit making excuses to drive. And don't forget that Metro-to-home
                                                        carry distances will be far shorter in a Crawfordian carfree city
                                                        than in a autocentric city where the need for wide roads and lots of
                                                        parking forces everything to be spread out.

                                                        Quote from an English fellow living in the Dutch town of Assen: "We
                                                        recently employed an electrician to work on our house. Much to my
                                                        surprise, he turned up on a bike. When he needed assistance, a second
                                                        electrician turned up - also on his bike."

                                                        Read the whole article here:
                                                        http://www.citycycling.co.uk/issue31/issue31page33.html

                                                        We can't let ourselves be trapped by old assumptions.

                                                        Rick
                                                        --
                                                        Richard Risemberg
                                                        http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                                                        http://www.newcolonist.com
                                                        http://www.rickrise.com
                                                      • Erik Sandblom
                                                        ... Not just to society, but to their very own customers as well. If your only real reason to own a car is to go to warehouses, than that s a very expensive
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 17, 2008
                                                          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                                                          wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > >That's one of the big omissions in thinking in carfree design, they
                                                          > >are not accounting for the vast economic efficiencies of letting
                                                          > >individuals make the last mile transport of goods to the home. This
                                                          > >has lead to very efficient constructs such as the warehouse store.
                                                          >
                                                          > Actually, the big box stores are very INefficient, because they
                                                          > require people to drive vast distances to use them. (They cannot
                                                          > survive without huge catchment areas.) So, they offer very low
                                                          > prices, but at the cost of externalizing huge transport costs
                                                          > to the larger society.


                                                          Not just to society, but to their very own customers as well. If your
                                                          only real reason to own a car is to go to warehouses, than that's a
                                                          very expensive way to go to warehouses. And as others have pointed
                                                          out, cars are too small and delicate to take things like furniture
                                                          anyway, which is why warehouses offer delivery.

                                                          Erik Sandblom
                                                        • Don
                                                          ... wrote:. ... Firstly I want to say I had no idea when I started this thread that such a fantastic discussion would follow. Glad I
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 17, 2008
                                                            --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Sandblom"
                                                            <eriksandblom@...> wrote:.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Actually, the big box stores are very INefficient, because they
                                                            > > require people to drive vast distances to use them. (They cannot
                                                            > > survive without huge catchment areas.) So, they offer very low
                                                            > > prices, but at the cost of externalizing huge transport costs
                                                            > > to the larger society.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Not just to society, but to their very own customers as well. If your
                                                            > only real reason to own a car is to go to warehouses, than that's a
                                                            > very expensive way to go to warehouses. And as others have pointed
                                                            > out, cars are too small and delicate to take things like furniture
                                                            > anyway, which is why warehouses offer delivery.
                                                            >
                                                            > Erik Sandblom
                                                            >
                                                            Firstly I want to say I had no idea when I started this thread that
                                                            such a fantastic discussion would follow. Glad I brought it up!

                                                            I've come to this site as a result of doing a research paper on
                                                            sustainability as part of my architectural studies (Univesity of Maine
                                                            at Augusta, pass it on..). J.H. Crawford's book was a great resource,
                                                            and I have thought about much of it quite often recently, with this
                                                            site spurring me on.

                                                            Of the many obvious but invisible things JC pointed out was this very
                                                            fact that we as individuals are providing a dispersed distribution
                                                            network for the big box warehouses. That these stores are warehouses
                                                            is the revelation. Duh. And that it is necessary to walk across acres
                                                            of pavement after burning gas at $3/gal is just as telling. If only
                                                            the mindset of the masses could be tweaked to see the obvious (as I was).

                                                            As a student of architecture, still able to deal with the essence of
                                                            design before having to deal with the complexities of real practice, I
                                                            am able to see that it is the importance and loss of human scale that
                                                            is one of the worst aspects of this. My research paper focused on the
                                                            aspects of carfree v carfull neighborhoods on the
                                                            individual/family/neighborhood psychologically and culturally. It is
                                                            human contact at human scale, without intervening miles of pavement
                                                            (that doesn't seem that big from within a car at 70mph) that is lost
                                                            to us and our families and friends (or future friends we may never meet).
                                                          • manfrommars_43
                                                            ... Yes, but look at how much energy it takes to bring goods in and out of Manhattan. You can postulate that, oh yes, see how dense population is and how
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 17, 2008
                                                              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
                                                              wrote:

                                                              > A week spent in Manhattan would reveal that most people
                                                              > don't use cars to transport groceries and clothing.

                                                              Yes, but look at how much energy it takes to bring goods in and out of
                                                              Manhattan. You can postulate that, oh yes, see how dense population
                                                              is and how people can walk down to the corner grocery and get their
                                                              tomatoes and they all walk everywhere...but what did it take to get
                                                              those tomatoes through the bridges and tunnels and streets so that a
                                                              few apartment dwellers can walk to get that tomato.

                                                              My point (which, yes, I know I have made before) is that I worry that
                                                              these plans merely shift or reallocate one efficiency for another.

                                                              The other thing that really worries me is that inefficient systems,
                                                              however distasteful, also provide a measure of freedom, redundancy and
                                                              remove dependence on single points of failure. For example, when the
                                                              bus union goes on strike, do people then starve? Does the corner
                                                              grocery, seeing that people can only walk there, mark up prices sky
                                                              high, because he knows he has a captive audience?

                                                              Another thing: cars are not just transportation...they are powerful
                                                              tools. We talk about Americans having guns so they can never be
                                                              subverted by the government, but a car is a two ton machine that each
                                                              and every family can have that can transport goods, people. The car
                                                              can shape the land by letting people choose where they want to go.

                                                              The proclivity of planners to create a Habitrail environment, assuming
                                                              that humans will want to take the same path now and forever, shopping
                                                              at the same store...well...something's missing.
                                                            • Richard Risemberg
                                                              ... it s been computed, my lad, and it s far FAR more efficient to have a even trucks bring large quantities of tomatoes into a neighborhood for people to pick
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Feb 17, 2008
                                                                On Feb 17, 2008, at 2:52 PM, manfrommars_43 wrote:

                                                                > Yes, but look at how much energy it takes to bring goods in and out of
                                                                > Manhattan. You can postulate that, oh yes, see how dense population
                                                                > is and how people can walk down to the corner grocery and get their
                                                                > tomatoes and they all walk everywhere...but what did it take to get
                                                                > those tomatoes through the bridges and tunnels and streets so that a
                                                                > few apartment dwellers can walk to get that tomato.


                                                                it's been computed, my lad, and it's far FAR more efficient to have a
                                                                even trucks bring large quantities of tomatoes into a neighborhood
                                                                for people to pick up on foot, than for those same trucks to stop a
                                                                little short, at some land-grabbing bigbox, and require people to
                                                                make hundreds or car trips to pick up said tomatoes.

                                                                As far as the car as a tool, yes, it's become a tool for isolation,
                                                                for mindless self-aggrandizement, for destruction of both culture and
                                                                the earth itself. Cars are inimical to community, and lead to an
                                                                atomized population that never knows its neighbors or where it stands
                                                                on the earth.

                                                                As for your "habitrail" bullshit, Paris, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and
                                                                many other delightful cities with a real culture and a light
                                                                footprint on the earth are built around transit and walking,
                                                                accommodating very few cars per capita. They are the places everyone
                                                                loves to visit and would live in if they could. Paris has TWICE the
                                                                population density of New York and was not a robotic hell last time I
                                                                visited.

                                                                Get real.

                                                                Rick
                                                                --
                                                                Richard Risemberg
                                                                http://www.bicyclefixation.com
                                                                http://www.newcolonist.com
                                                                http://www.rickrise.com







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