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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Cheaper to drive their cars to work than take public transport

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  • Jym Dyer
    ... =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly the best example to apply. So many variables involved there. =v= That said, Manhattan is
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
      > One objection I've heard to carfree/urban living is that it
      > would turn into NYC--not affordable unless you live in a very
      > small space.

      =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly
      the best example to apply. So many variables involved there.

      =v= That said, Manhattan is only one of NYC's five boroughs.
      I think carfree living in still-affordable parts of Brooklyn
      and the Bronx are a better model than Manhattan.
      <_Jym_>

      --
      Save Zeeba! Jeffy is God!
    • Randall Ghent
      In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very poor to
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 12, 2007
        In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in
        most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very
        poor to very rich. This is true even in cities with a population of over 1
        million. Of course the local and national economic situations have a lot to
        do with it, and the fact that carfree areas aren't seen as a luxury. In some
        cases they are even run down.

        But in a large North American city, there is no reason why all carfree areas
        would need to be in or near the city center, as Jym said. It is possible to
        strengthen and revitalize neighborhood centers by making them carfree. If
        this is done frequently enough and carfree areas become more commonplace,
        the cost of living in such places could drop. Or more proactively, city
        councils and planning departments could require that affordable housing be
        included in such projects. And of course if car owners were not allowed to
        live in the carfree areas, the prices could also drop for that reason.

        To answer your question more directly, I do know of a large optically
        carfree residential area in Berlin where rents are probably not very high.
        We visited it during the Towards Carfree Cities IV conference. I say
        "optically carfree" because it includes quite a bit of underground car
        parking. Markus Heller, who is on this list, would have more information.

        Randy


        Matt Hohmeister wrote:

        > That brings up an interesting point with carfree cities. Does anyone
        out there know of a carfree area in an at least midsized city (over
        100k) that has reasonable property values? One objection I've heard to
        carfree/urban living is that it would turn into NYC--not affordable
        unless you live in a very small space.

        > As a reference point, Tallahassee's population is 159k (337k MSA), and
        we're paying $1050 monthly for 1800 square feet, a few blocks from
        downtown.

        --
        Randall Ghent
        Conference Coordinator
        WORLD CARFREE NETWORK
        home address: 20 Gale Lane
        Acomb, York YO24 3BB, U.K.
        tel: +(44) 1904 796860
        skype: randallghent
        rghent@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Debra Efroymson
        In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 13, 2007
          In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely
          neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka
          and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
          life, vendors with bicycle carts, kids playing in the
          streets, very quiet (the occasional motorbike hardly
          compensates for constant honking!). They are indeed
          low-income neighborhoods, and I doubt the residents
          realize how lucky they are (poor ventilation,
          crowding, etc. etc.).

          In Dhaka we chose a lower income neighborhood to live
          in; directly across the main street the rents are
          higher, the streets wider, the cars far more abundant,
          and thus the noise that much worse. There are still
          cars where we live, and as a result the only people I
          know are not the residents of the buildings but the
          guards, vendors, students, and beggars.

          The problem, again, is that nobody in these
          neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good
          thing...yet anyway...so it seems there are two angles
          to approach, highlighting the advantages of already
          carfree areas, and making them widespread enough that
          the rents can't always be atrociously high when people
          DO realize the benefits. ??

          Anima

          --- Randall Ghent <rghent@...> wrote:

          > In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of
          > substantial size exist in
          > most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of
          > income levels, from very
          > poor to very rich.



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        • Carlos F. Pardo
          Regarding Debra s post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing.. , I m reproducing
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 14, 2007
            Regarding Debra's post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that
            "nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing..",
            I'm reproducing the following paragraph from a nice book I'm reading
            (full reference at the end):

            "So it is with this village. Its ecological and peaceful way of living
            is unconsciously won and thus is vulnerable to the winds of change that
            fan the latent desires of its people. Even now there is a familiar
            though jarring note in this sylvian village scene. The sounds of static
            and that impersonal professional voice of another civilization - the
            radio announcer- cut through the harmony of sounds as a young man of the
            village holding a portable radio to his ear comes around a bend. On his
            arm there is a silver wristwatch, which sparkles in the sun. He looks at
            me proudly as he passes. And a wave of understanding passes through me.
            Just behind that radio and wristwatch comes an army of desires that for
            centuries have gone untested and untasted. As material growth and
            technological change activate these yearnings, they will transform the
            hearts, minds, work, and daily life of this village within a generation
            of two."

            Elgin, Duane (1981/1993 ). Voluntary Simplicity. New York: Harper. pp 14-15.

            Best regards,


            --
            Carlos.
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