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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: Cheaper to drive their cars to work than take public transport

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  • J.H. Crawford
    ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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      At 2007-09-11 11:05, you wrote:

      >--- In <mailto:carfree_cities%40yahoogroups.com>carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
      >wrote:
      >>
      >> Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
      >> have come up with this.
      >>
      >> >Florida State University employees have an interesting setup too.
      >They
      >> >can get $10/mo transit passes, but ONLY if they buy a $250/yr campus
      >> >parking permit. So for an FSU employee who doesn't have a car and/or
      >> >doesn't drive to work, they are better off buying a parking permit
      >> >JUST to get the cheaper transit pass.
      >>
      >
      >Truth IS often stranger than fiction, but not in this particular case.
      >
      >FSU has TWO bus-pass programs:
      >1) Free monthly passes to employees who DON'T get a parking permit,
      >and who indeed are ineligible to obtain a parking permit as long as
      >they receive the free bus pass; and
      >2) the aforementioned $10 (actually, $10.50, but close enough) bus
      >passes for employees who DO have a parking permit.
      ><http://www.vpfa.fsu.edu/policies/bmanual/parking.html>http://www.vpfa.fsu.edu/policies/bmanual/parking.html
      >
      >



      ----- ### -----
      J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
    • Matt Hohmeister
      I think we can all think of examples of situations where bureaucracy, stubbornness, or existing policy forces or encourages inefficiency... - Malls with too
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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        I think we can all think of examples of situations where bureaucracy,
        stubbornness, or existing policy forces or encourages inefficiency...

        - Malls with too many parking spaces because of local ordinances.
        Chances are the owner would be happy to develop the land to a higher
        FAR, but that's illegal.

        - Suburban homes much more affordable than urban homes. Since most
        cities won't allow any new non-sprawl development, the supply of urban
        homes is kept artificially low, sending prices through the roof. Of
        course, the city's blowing all their budget on six-laning I-10 and
        US-231 doesn't help either.

        That brings up an interesting point with carfree cities. Does anyone
        out there know of a carfree area in an at least midsized city (over
        100k) that has reasonable property values? One objection I've heard to
        carfree/urban living is that it would turn into NYC--not affordable
        unless you live in a very small space.

        As a reference point, Tallahassee's population is 159k (337k MSA), and
        we're paying $1050 monthly for 1800 square feet, a few blocks from
        downtown.

        Cheers,

        matt

        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
        > have come up with this.
      • Jym Dyer
        ... =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly the best example to apply. So many variables involved there. =v= That said, Manhattan is
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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          > One objection I've heard to carfree/urban living is that it
          > would turn into NYC--not affordable unless you live in a very
          > small space.

          =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly
          the best example to apply. So many variables involved there.

          =v= That said, Manhattan is only one of NYC's five boroughs.
          I think carfree living in still-affordable parts of Brooklyn
          and the Bronx are a better model than Manhattan.
          <_Jym_>

          --
          Save Zeeba! Jeffy is God!
        • Randall Ghent
          In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very poor to
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 12, 2007
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            In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in
            most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very
            poor to very rich. This is true even in cities with a population of over 1
            million. Of course the local and national economic situations have a lot to
            do with it, and the fact that carfree areas aren't seen as a luxury. In some
            cases they are even run down.

            But in a large North American city, there is no reason why all carfree areas
            would need to be in or near the city center, as Jym said. It is possible to
            strengthen and revitalize neighborhood centers by making them carfree. If
            this is done frequently enough and carfree areas become more commonplace,
            the cost of living in such places could drop. Or more proactively, city
            councils and planning departments could require that affordable housing be
            included in such projects. And of course if car owners were not allowed to
            live in the carfree areas, the prices could also drop for that reason.

            To answer your question more directly, I do know of a large optically
            carfree residential area in Berlin where rents are probably not very high.
            We visited it during the Towards Carfree Cities IV conference. I say
            "optically carfree" because it includes quite a bit of underground car
            parking. Markus Heller, who is on this list, would have more information.

            Randy


            Matt Hohmeister wrote:

            > That brings up an interesting point with carfree cities. Does anyone
            out there know of a carfree area in an at least midsized city (over
            100k) that has reasonable property values? One objection I've heard to
            carfree/urban living is that it would turn into NYC--not affordable
            unless you live in a very small space.

            > As a reference point, Tallahassee's population is 159k (337k MSA), and
            we're paying $1050 monthly for 1800 square feet, a few blocks from
            downtown.

            --
            Randall Ghent
            Conference Coordinator
            WORLD CARFREE NETWORK
            home address: 20 Gale Lane
            Acomb, York YO24 3BB, U.K.
            tel: +(44) 1904 796860
            skype: randallghent
            rghent@...


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Debra Efroymson
            In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 13, 2007
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              In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely
              neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka
              and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
              life, vendors with bicycle carts, kids playing in the
              streets, very quiet (the occasional motorbike hardly
              compensates for constant honking!). They are indeed
              low-income neighborhoods, and I doubt the residents
              realize how lucky they are (poor ventilation,
              crowding, etc. etc.).

              In Dhaka we chose a lower income neighborhood to live
              in; directly across the main street the rents are
              higher, the streets wider, the cars far more abundant,
              and thus the noise that much worse. There are still
              cars where we live, and as a result the only people I
              know are not the residents of the buildings but the
              guards, vendors, students, and beggars.

              The problem, again, is that nobody in these
              neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good
              thing...yet anyway...so it seems there are two angles
              to approach, highlighting the advantages of already
              carfree areas, and making them widespread enough that
              the rents can't always be atrociously high when people
              DO realize the benefits. ??

              Anima

              --- Randall Ghent <rghent@...> wrote:

              > In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of
              > substantial size exist in
              > most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of
              > income levels, from very
              > poor to very rich.



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            • Carlos F. Pardo
              Regarding Debra s post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing.. , I m reproducing
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 14, 2007
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                Regarding Debra's post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that
                "nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing..",
                I'm reproducing the following paragraph from a nice book I'm reading
                (full reference at the end):

                "So it is with this village. Its ecological and peaceful way of living
                is unconsciously won and thus is vulnerable to the winds of change that
                fan the latent desires of its people. Even now there is a familiar
                though jarring note in this sylvian village scene. The sounds of static
                and that impersonal professional voice of another civilization - the
                radio announcer- cut through the harmony of sounds as a young man of the
                village holding a portable radio to his ear comes around a bend. On his
                arm there is a silver wristwatch, which sparkles in the sun. He looks at
                me proudly as he passes. And a wave of understanding passes through me.
                Just behind that radio and wristwatch comes an army of desires that for
                centuries have gone untested and untasted. As material growth and
                technological change activate these yearnings, they will transform the
                hearts, minds, work, and daily life of this village within a generation
                of two."

                Elgin, Duane (1981/1993 ). Voluntary Simplicity. New York: Harper. pp 14-15.

                Best regards,


                --
                Carlos.
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