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shared space = remove traffic lights to help pedestrians

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  • Greg Steele
    an interesting idea... a town in Germany is removing all traffic control devices to improve walking - story link
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 11, 2007
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      an interesting idea... a town in Germany is removing all traffic
      control devices to improve walking - story link
      http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070911/od_nm/germany_traffic_odd_dc;_ylt=A
      nQcIbRtEEV0ipgr8pfRxQgEtbAF

      The opposing view is from Berlin's Technical Traffic Institute. Isn't
      that like asking someone from the Beef Producer's Institute about
      vegetarianism.

      "Just because it worked in the Netherlands doesn't mean it will work
      here," said Werner Koeppe, a road specialist at Berlin's Technical
      Traffic Institute.
    • Erik Sandblom
      ... germany_traffic_odd_dc;_ylt=A ... Isn t ... work ... I understand the shared space concept works best at a certain traffic volume. If you have very high
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 11, 2007
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        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "Greg
        Steele" <thegisguru@...> wrote:
        >
        > an interesting idea... a town in Germany is removing all traffic
        > control devices to improve walking - story link
        > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070911/od_nm/
        germany_traffic_odd_dc;_ylt=A
        > nQcIbRtEEV0ipgr8pfRxQgEtbAF
        >
        > The opposing view is from Berlin's Technical Traffic Institute.
        Isn't
        > that like asking someone from the Beef Producer's Institute about
        > vegetarianism.
        >
        > "Just because it worked in the Netherlands doesn't mean it will
        work
        > here," said Werner Koeppe, a road specialist at Berlin's Technical
        > Traffic Institute.


        I understand the "shared space" concept works best at a certain
        traffic volume. If you have very high volume, I guess it might get
        out of hand somehow.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

        Erik Sandblom
      • doug@sfbackstory.com
        ... Usually, the determining factor in these situations is the volume of *pedestrian* traffic. If there are enough peds, drivers (however many of *them* there
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 11, 2007
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          Erik wrote:

          > I understand the "shared space" >concept works best at a certain
          >traffic volume. If you have very >high volume, I guess it might get
          >out of hand somehow.

          Usually, the determining factor in these situations is the volume of *pedestrian* traffic. If there are enough peds, drivers (however many of *them* there may be) pretty much have to pay attention and yield. Where ped traffic is low or intermittent, good luck crossing busy streets without signs or signals.

          -Doug

          =---=---=---=---=
          Doug Salzmann
          P.O. Box 378
          Tiburon, CA 94920
        • Erik Sandblom
          ... get ... of *pedestrian* traffic. If there are enough peds, drivers (however many of *them* there may be) pretty much have to pay attention and yield.
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 12, 2007
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            --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, <doug@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Erik wrote:
            >
            > > I understand the "shared space" >concept works best at a certain
            > >traffic volume. If you have very >high volume, I guess it might
            get
            > >out of hand somehow.
            >
            > Usually, the determining factor in these situations is the volume
            of *pedestrian* traffic. If there are enough peds, drivers (however
            many of *them* there may be) pretty much have to pay attention and
            yield. Where ped traffic is low or intermittent, good luck crossing
            busy streets without signs or signals.


            Shame on me, I equated "traffic" with "car traffic".

            Erik Sandblom
          • Jennifer Ashley
            I find this to be true on the streets of major Chinese city streets. I currently live in Chengdu (pop. somewhere around 10 million) and have visited many of
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 12, 2007
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              I find this to be true on the streets of major Chinese city streets. I currently live in Chengdu (pop. somewhere around 10 million) and have visited many of the nation's other large cities. For whatever reason (my conjecture is the relatively recent introduction of the automobile to the masses), traffic lights here are regularly ignored by drivers, pedestrians, and bikers. At intersections, whichever group is the greatest in number seems to just go; and it is a nice contrast to crossing the street in my former haunts of Los Angeles, where I was often the lone pedestrian against a street full of cars, to feel that those great hordes of us on foot/bike are taking (back) the streets from automobiles. On the flip side, we can never assume we have the right of way; that right is almost always taken by drivers. Of course all this is changing, with increasing numbers of cars on the street every day, and more and more uniformed traffic guards at all four corners of major
              intersections, armed with whistles (though not much else), waving at bikers and pedestrians to stay behind the lines when their light is red. This, too, seems to be a re-engineering of social mentality to conform to cars: Those of us on foot/bike need to yield to car drivers for our own safety while they are generally free to do as they please, including driving down bike lines that are separated from the normal driving lanes by cement barriers.

              doug@... wrote:
              Erik wrote:

              > I understand the "shared space" >concept works best at a certain
              >traffic volume. If you have very >high volume, I guess it might get
              >out of hand somehow.

              Usually, the determining factor in these situations is the volume of *pedestrian* traffic. If there are enough peds, drivers (however many of *them* there may be) pretty much have to pay attention and yield. Where ped traffic is low or intermittent, good luck crossing busy streets without signs or signals.

              -Doug

              =---=---=---=---=
              Doug Salzmann
              P.O. Box 378
              Tiburon, CA 94920






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