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Re: Cheaper to drive their cars to work than take public transport

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  • Matt Hohmeister
    Although mass transit will almost always come out ahead of personal vehicle use in terms of cost, the State of Florida surely isn t doing its part. I am
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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      Although mass transit will almost always come out ahead of personal
      vehicle use in terms of cost, the State of Florida surely isn't doing
      its part. I am offered (but do not have) a garage parking space for $4
      per month--quite obviously subsidized. Transit passes? $41.50 per
      month. A state program used to offer employees transit passes for
      $10/mo, but I think its elimination (and the $4/mo garage parking) is
      part of Jeb Bush's legacy of "efficient" government.

      Florida State University employees have an interesting setup too. They
      can get $10/mo transit passes, but ONLY if they buy a $250/yr campus
      parking permit. So for an FSU employee who doesn't have a car and/or
      doesn't drive to work, they are better off buying a parking permit
      JUST to get the cheaper transit pass.

      --
      > > How rediculous!! By my calculations I'm $50/week ahead by using
      > public transport rather than drive my car. This article is sure to
      > leave most drivers satisfied that they've made the right decision and
      > satisfied that it's not worth doing the maths for themselves.
    • J.H. Crawford
      Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never have come up with this. ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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        Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
        have come up with this.

        >Florida State University employees have an interesting setup too. They
        >can get $10/mo transit passes, but ONLY if they buy a $250/yr campus
        >parking permit. So for an FSU employee who doesn't have a car and/or
        >doesn't drive to work, they are better off buying a parking permit
        >JUST to get the cheaper transit pass.





        ----- ### -----
        J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
        mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
      • John Bredin
        ... They ... Truth IS often stranger than fiction, but not in this particular case. FSU has TWO bus-pass programs: 1) Free monthly passes to employees who
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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          --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
          > have come up with this.
          >
          > >Florida State University employees have an interesting setup too.
          They
          > >can get $10/mo transit passes, but ONLY if they buy a $250/yr campus
          > >parking permit. So for an FSU employee who doesn't have a car and/or
          > >doesn't drive to work, they are better off buying a parking permit
          > >JUST to get the cheaper transit pass.
          >

          Truth IS often stranger than fiction, but not in this particular case.

          FSU has TWO bus-pass programs:
          1) Free monthly passes to employees who DON'T get a parking permit,
          and who indeed are ineligible to obtain a parking permit as long as
          they receive the free bus pass; and
          2) the aforementioned $10 (actually, $10.50, but close enough) bus
          passes for employees who DO have a parking permit.
          http://www.vpfa.fsu.edu/policies/bmanual/parking.html
        • J.H. Crawford
          ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities mailbox@carfree.com http://www.carfree.com
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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            At 2007-09-11 11:05, you wrote:

            >--- In <mailto:carfree_cities%40yahoogroups.com>carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
            >wrote:
            >>
            >> Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
            >> have come up with this.
            >>
            >> >Florida State University employees have an interesting setup too.
            >They
            >> >can get $10/mo transit passes, but ONLY if they buy a $250/yr campus
            >> >parking permit. So for an FSU employee who doesn't have a car and/or
            >> >doesn't drive to work, they are better off buying a parking permit
            >> >JUST to get the cheaper transit pass.
            >>
            >
            >Truth IS often stranger than fiction, but not in this particular case.
            >
            >FSU has TWO bus-pass programs:
            >1) Free monthly passes to employees who DON'T get a parking permit,
            >and who indeed are ineligible to obtain a parking permit as long as
            >they receive the free bus pass; and
            >2) the aforementioned $10 (actually, $10.50, but close enough) bus
            >passes for employees who DO have a parking permit.
            ><http://www.vpfa.fsu.edu/policies/bmanual/parking.html>http://www.vpfa.fsu.edu/policies/bmanual/parking.html
            >
            >



            ----- ### -----
            J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
          • Matt Hohmeister
            I think we can all think of examples of situations where bureaucracy, stubbornness, or existing policy forces or encourages inefficiency... - Malls with too
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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              I think we can all think of examples of situations where bureaucracy,
              stubbornness, or existing policy forces or encourages inefficiency...

              - Malls with too many parking spaces because of local ordinances.
              Chances are the owner would be happy to develop the land to a higher
              FAR, but that's illegal.

              - Suburban homes much more affordable than urban homes. Since most
              cities won't allow any new non-sprawl development, the supply of urban
              homes is kept artificially low, sending prices through the roof. Of
              course, the city's blowing all their budget on six-laning I-10 and
              US-231 doesn't help either.

              That brings up an interesting point with carfree cities. Does anyone
              out there know of a carfree area in an at least midsized city (over
              100k) that has reasonable property values? One objection I've heard to
              carfree/urban living is that it would turn into NYC--not affordable
              unless you live in a very small space.

              As a reference point, Tallahassee's population is 159k (337k MSA), and
              we're paying $1050 monthly for 1800 square feet, a few blocks from
              downtown.

              Cheers,

              matt

              --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "J.H. Crawford" <mailbox@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Once again, truth is stranger than fiction. Kafka could never
              > have come up with this.
            • Jym Dyer
              ... =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly the best example to apply. So many variables involved there. =v= That said, Manhattan is
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 11, 2007
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                > One objection I've heard to carfree/urban living is that it
                > would turn into NYC--not affordable unless you live in a very
                > small space.

                =v= Bear in mind that NYC is a singularity, and thus not exactly
                the best example to apply. So many variables involved there.

                =v= That said, Manhattan is only one of NYC's five boroughs.
                I think carfree living in still-affordable parts of Brooklyn
                and the Bronx are a better model than Manhattan.
                <_Jym_>

                --
                Save Zeeba! Jeffy is God!
              • Randall Ghent
                In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very poor to
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 12, 2007
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                  In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of substantial size exist in
                  most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of income levels, from very
                  poor to very rich. This is true even in cities with a population of over 1
                  million. Of course the local and national economic situations have a lot to
                  do with it, and the fact that carfree areas aren't seen as a luxury. In some
                  cases they are even run down.

                  But in a large North American city, there is no reason why all carfree areas
                  would need to be in or near the city center, as Jym said. It is possible to
                  strengthen and revitalize neighborhood centers by making them carfree. If
                  this is done frequently enough and carfree areas become more commonplace,
                  the cost of living in such places could drop. Or more proactively, city
                  councils and planning departments could require that affordable housing be
                  included in such projects. And of course if car owners were not allowed to
                  live in the carfree areas, the prices could also drop for that reason.

                  To answer your question more directly, I do know of a large optically
                  carfree residential area in Berlin where rents are probably not very high.
                  We visited it during the Towards Carfree Cities IV conference. I say
                  "optically carfree" because it includes quite a bit of underground car
                  parking. Markus Heller, who is on this list, would have more information.

                  Randy


                  Matt Hohmeister wrote:

                  > That brings up an interesting point with carfree cities. Does anyone
                  out there know of a carfree area in an at least midsized city (over
                  100k) that has reasonable property values? One objection I've heard to
                  carfree/urban living is that it would turn into NYC--not affordable
                  unless you live in a very small space.

                  > As a reference point, Tallahassee's population is 159k (337k MSA), and
                  we're paying $1050 monthly for 1800 square feet, a few blocks from
                  downtown.

                  --
                  Randall Ghent
                  Conference Coordinator
                  WORLD CARFREE NETWORK
                  home address: 20 Gale Lane
                  Acomb, York YO24 3BB, U.K.
                  tel: +(44) 1904 796860
                  skype: randallghent
                  rghent@...


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Debra Efroymson
                  In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 13, 2007
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                    In Asia also, I have walked through some lovely
                    neighborhoods of narrow lanes, particularly in Dhaka
                    and Kathmandu, no cars, very colorful and vivid street
                    life, vendors with bicycle carts, kids playing in the
                    streets, very quiet (the occasional motorbike hardly
                    compensates for constant honking!). They are indeed
                    low-income neighborhoods, and I doubt the residents
                    realize how lucky they are (poor ventilation,
                    crowding, etc. etc.).

                    In Dhaka we chose a lower income neighborhood to live
                    in; directly across the main street the rents are
                    higher, the streets wider, the cars far more abundant,
                    and thus the noise that much worse. There are still
                    cars where we live, and as a result the only people I
                    know are not the residents of the buildings but the
                    guards, vendors, students, and beggars.

                    The problem, again, is that nobody in these
                    neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good
                    thing...yet anyway...so it seems there are two angles
                    to approach, highlighting the advantages of already
                    carfree areas, and making them widespread enough that
                    the rents can't always be atrociously high when people
                    DO realize the benefits. ??

                    Anima

                    --- Randall Ghent <rghent@...> wrote:

                    > In North Africa, where carfree areas (medinas) of
                    > substantial size exist in
                    > most cities, the carfree areas include a mix of
                    > income levels, from very
                    > poor to very rich.



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                  • Carlos F. Pardo
                    Regarding Debra s post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing.. , I m reproducing
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 14, 2007
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                      Regarding Debra's post on low-income carfree areas and her remark that
                      "nobody in these neighborhoods seems to see carfree as a good thing..",
                      I'm reproducing the following paragraph from a nice book I'm reading
                      (full reference at the end):

                      "So it is with this village. Its ecological and peaceful way of living
                      is unconsciously won and thus is vulnerable to the winds of change that
                      fan the latent desires of its people. Even now there is a familiar
                      though jarring note in this sylvian village scene. The sounds of static
                      and that impersonal professional voice of another civilization - the
                      radio announcer- cut through the harmony of sounds as a young man of the
                      village holding a portable radio to his ear comes around a bend. On his
                      arm there is a silver wristwatch, which sparkles in the sun. He looks at
                      me proudly as he passes. And a wave of understanding passes through me.
                      Just behind that radio and wristwatch comes an army of desires that for
                      centuries have gone untested and untasted. As material growth and
                      technological change activate these yearnings, they will transform the
                      hearts, minds, work, and daily life of this village within a generation
                      of two."

                      Elgin, Duane (1981/1993 ). Voluntary Simplicity. New York: Harper. pp 14-15.

                      Best regards,


                      --
                      Carlos.
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