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Re: [carfree_cities] Re: "New York may ban iPods while crossing street"

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  • Todd Edelman
    Hi again, I am totally against any laws regarding using portable electronic devices whilst walking... on public transport it is a little different as it is a
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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      Hi again,

      I am totally against any laws regarding using portable electronic
      devices whilst walking... on public transport it is a little different
      as it is a space in which you often cannot re-locate.

      It is also fine for people to be anonymous (you don't have to give your
      name if you help or smile at someone on the street...and so on...). The
      problem is being oblivious!

      The main reason for pedestrians to carry ID these days is so if a car
      hits them and they are killed or worse, their family members can be found.

      T

      dawie_coetzee wrote:
      >
      > I would also oppose such a law, firstly for the reason Elliot gives.
      > The very unpredictability of pedestrian movement is an important
      > factor that determines a public space as a predominantly pedestrian
      > space in which motor vehicles are rather awkward guests.
      >





      [...]

      --------------------------------------------

      Todd Edelman
      Director
      Green Idea Factory

      Korunní 72
      CZ-10100 Praha 10
      Czech Republic

      ++420 605 915 970
      ++420 222 517 832
      Skype: toddedelman

      edelman@...
      http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

      Green Idea Factory,
      a member of World Carfree Network
    • c1ttad1no
      ... I think all this protesting about the sacred right of pedestrians to be free and unfettered while wandering unpredictably through the shared environment
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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        --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, "dawie_coetzee"
        <dawie_coetzee@...> wrote:
        >
        > I would also oppose such a law, firstly for the reason Elliot gives.
        > The very unpredictability of pedestrian movement is an important
        > factor that determines a public space as a predominantly pedestrian
        > space in which motor vehicles are rather awkward guests.

        I think all this protesting about the sacred right of pedestrians to
        be free and unfettered while wandering unpredictably through the
        shared environment is, essentially, anti-social.

        At the very least, pedestrians, or others, involved in collisions
        (with vehicles, cyclists, other pedestrians, stationary hazards, etc.)
        while distracting themselves and deadening their senses should be
        presumed responsible, as motorists are presumed responsible for
        collisions with non-motorized traffic in some European nations.

        > But secondly, I would oppose such a law on the principle that
        > endangering oneself is a basic human right.

        Perhaps, but endangering others, or even impeding or inconveniencing
        them, for no better reason than entertainment or personal preference,
        is neither a right nor a privilege. If one wants to endanger oneself,
        it would be courteous to do so where others will not be affected,
        including by the trauma of witnessing or disposing of one's mangled
        corpse.


        -Doug
      • Andrew Hitchcock
        This is ridiculous. ... People have other senses besides there ears. If you are going to automatically blame people who have less-heightened senses, then you
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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          This is ridiculous.

          c1ttad1no wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:carfree_cities%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawie_coetzee"
          > <dawie_coetzee@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I would also oppose such a law, firstly for the reason Elliot gives.
          > > The very unpredictability of pedestrian movement is an important
          > > factor that determines a public space as a predominantly pedestrian
          > > space in which motor vehicles are rather awkward guests.
          >
          > I think all this protesting about the sacred right of pedestrians to
          > be free and unfettered while wandering unpredictably through the
          > shared environment is, essentially, anti-social.
          >
          > At the very least, pedestrians, or others, involved in collisions
          > (with vehicles, cyclists, other pedestrians, stationary hazards, etc.)
          > while distracting themselves and deadening their senses should be
          > presumed responsible, as motorists are presumed responsible for
          > collisions with non-motorized traffic in some European nations.

          People have other senses besides there ears. If you are going to
          automatically blame people who have less-heightened senses, then you are
          placing blame on deaf people, blind people, and the elderly.

          >
          > > But secondly, I would oppose such a law on the principle that
          > > endangering oneself is a basic human right.
          >
          > Perhaps, but endangering others, or even impeding or inconveniencing
          > them, for no better reason than entertainment or personal preference,
          > is neither a right nor a privilege. If one wants to endanger oneself,
          > it would be courteous to do so where others will not be affected,
          > including by the trauma of witnessing or disposing of one's mangled
          > corpse.

          I live near a college campus, the sidewalks are fairly crowded and many,
          many people use iPods or other digital audio players. Despite this, I
          have yet to see any 12 human pileups resulting in loss of life.
          Amazingly, people still know how to walk while listening to music.

          Meanwhile, people in my city are hit in crosswalks when they have the
          right of way even without using headphones.

          I used to wear headphones all the time when walking around. I don't now
          because I know lots of people so I'm always saying hi or stopping to
          chat. However, sometimes when I'm not feeling social (either deep in
          thought or in a bad mood), I'll use my iPod.

          If you want to ban all anti-social activities (such as listening to
          headphones in public), well, I might as well unsubscribe from this list
          now, because the carfree city you envision is very different than the
          carfree city I envision, and one in which I would not want to live.

          Andrew

          >
          > -Doug
          >
          >
        • c1ttad1no
          ... I don t think it is ridiculous at all. Indeed, I think that the angry, selfish insistence, by some here, on absolute freedom from responsibility for
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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            --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Hitchcock <mail@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is ridiculous.

            I don't think it is ridiculous at all. Indeed, I think that the
            angry, selfish insistence, by some here, on absolute freedom from
            responsibility for behavior in shared space, is profoundly immature
            (at least in a sociological sense).

            > People have other senses besides there ears.

            They do, indeed. Hearing, however, is comparatively omnidirectional,
            and is thus especially important in maintaining awareness, and
            exercising judgment, while traversing shared public spaces.

            > If you are going to
            > automatically blame people who have less-heightened senses,

            Please re-read what I have written. It says nothing about "blame."
            Rather, I have spoken about responsibility.

            > then you are
            > placing blame on deaf people, blind people, and the elderly.

            Of course I am not. People whose hearing, or sight, or mobility, is
            impaired or altered by illness (or otherwise) are 1) very few in
            number by comparison with the hordes of plugged-in space cadets and
            cellphone yakkers who clog our streets and sidewalks, and 2) typically
            especially alert and careful to maintain awareness of the
            environment, and often specifically trained in methods for doing so.

            In fact, the very presence of fellow humans who may not see, hear or
            move with as much facility as others makes it incumbent upon the rest
            of us to proceed with special caution and awareness.

            > Amazingly, people still know how to walk while listening to music.

            I believe that the evidence strongly suggests that they generally do
            *not* walk safely, or with courtesy and respect for others, while
            absorbed in an altered reality generated by recorded music, cellphone
            conversations with distant people, peripatetic text messaging, etc.

            Walk (or pedal, drive, skate, etc.) now. Chat and entertain yourself
            later.


            -Doug
          • J.H. Crawford
            Hi All, Time to turn down the heat in this discussion. Your moderator, ... J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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              Hi All,

              Time to turn down the heat in this discussion.

              Your moderator,




              ----- ### -----
              J.H. Crawford Carfree Cities
              mailbox@... http://www.carfree.com
            • dawie_coetzee
              ... list ... Thanks, Andrew. There is a disturbing tendency to associate urban social life with abject servility. I see an opposite potential -D
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 8, 2007
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                --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Hitchcock <mail@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > If you want to ban all anti-social activities (such as listening to
                > headphones in public), well, I might as well unsubscribe from this
                list
                > now, because the carfree city you envision is very different than the
                > carfree city I envision, and one in which I would not want to live.
                >
                > Andrew
                >
                Thanks, Andrew. There is a disturbing tendency to associate urban
                social life with abject servility. I see an opposite potential -D
              • Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
                If an iPod is dangerous for a person moving along the street, what about a car? What about an SUV? -- Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto GTZ - Proyecto de
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 9, 2007
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                  If an iPod is dangerous for a person moving along the street, what about
                  a car? What about an SUV?

                  --
                  Carlos F. Pardo
                  Coordinador de Proyecto
                  GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
                  Cl 126 # 52A-28 of 404
                  Bogotá D.C., Colombia
                  Tel: +57 (1) 215 7812
                  Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662
                  e-mail: carlos.pardo@...
                  Página: www.sutp.org
                • eileen
                  Or what the TV in the SUV? e ... From: Carlos F. Pardo SUTP To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:33 AM Subject:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 9, 2007
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                    Or what the TV in the SUV?

                    e
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
                    To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:33 AM
                    Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: "New York may ban iPods while crossing street"


                    If an iPod is dangerous for a person moving along the street, what about
                    a car? What about an SUV?

                    --
                    Carlos F. Pardo
                    Coordinador de Proyecto
                    GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
                    Cl 126 # 52A-28 of 404
                    Bogotá D.C., Colombia
                    Tel: +57 (1) 215 7812
                    Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662
                    e-mail: carlos.pardo@...
                    Página: www.sutp.org





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kerstin heinrich
                    what is an Ipod , i am from a tri....you would call it third world, but we love bikes... eileen schrieb:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 9, 2007
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                      what is an Ipod , i am from a tri....you would call it third world, but we love bikes...

                      eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> schrieb: Or what the TV in the SUV?

                      e
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Carlos F. Pardo SUTP
                      To: carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 8:33 AM
                      Subject: [carfree_cities] Re: "New York may ban iPods while crossing street"

                      If an iPod is dangerous for a person moving along the street, what about
                      a car? What about an SUV?

                      --
                      Carlos F. Pardo
                      Coordinador de Proyecto
                      GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
                      Cl 126 # 52A-28 of 404
                      Bogotá D.C., Colombia
                      Tel: +57 (1) 215 7812
                      Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662
                      e-mail: carlos.pardo@...
                      Página: www.sutp.org

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      ---------------------------------
                      Was ist Glück? Schlafen Fische überhaupt? Die Antworten gibt’s auf Yahoo! Clever.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert J. Matter
                      ... I used to listen to books on tape/CD while cycling in Chicago. I stopped because the street noise blared out too much of the material; sirens, construction
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 9, 2007
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                        Todd Edelman wrote:

                        > By choice, I don't and never have used any kind of portable listening
                        > device on the street. I think it is an insult to the Street. I assume
                        > many people feel the same way. Why do we need to isolate ourselves while
                        > in public?
                        >
                        > I am not for a law making portable devices illegal while walking, and I
                        > recognize that their use brings pleasure on e.g. long commutes, but on
                        > the other hand I am very curious if many pedestrian-friendly and compact
                        > places also have low use of these devices. Personalised music doesn't
                        > make dangerous noise go away, it just covers it up.

                        I used to listen to books on tape/CD while cycling in Chicago. I stopped
                        because the street noise blared out too much of the material; sirens,
                        construction equipment, accelerating trucks, honking horns, L trains
                        passing overhead, etc. I just listen to music now (when the weather is
                        warmer) where such interruptions aren't critical. I don't think I could
                        tolerate listening to music at the volume it would require to block out
                        Chicago's street noise. As a matter of fact, I sort of consider my
                        headphones as personal safety equipment to protect my hearing. One time
                        a Chicago cop drove by me when I didn't have my headphones on and
                        sounded his buzzer (probably because I was riding outside the door
                        zone). It knocked out my hearing in my left ear for about 10 minutes and
                        my ears rang for about half an hour after that. When angry cagers honk
                        at me for taking a lane my headphones help muffle their loud, shrill
                        horns. I am less inclined to respond to their screaming at me to get off
                        the road, get on the sidewalk, etc. when I have headphones on too. I
                        always ride with a mirror so I know what's going on around me 360
                        degrees. Even with headphones I can still hear enough traffic noise to
                        not jeopardize my safety. I don't need to hear that traffic noise at
                        full volume.

                        --Bob Matter
                      • Todd Edelman
                        ... I WOULD imagine that using headphones while cycling is illegal in Chicago, but of course using a Bluetooth etc device in one ear while driving is not...
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 10, 2007
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                          Robert J. Matter wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I used to listen to books on tape/CD while cycling in Chicago.
                          >



                          I WOULD imagine that using headphones while cycling is illegal in
                          Chicago, but of course using a Bluetooth etc device in one ear while
                          driving is not...

                          > I stopped
                          > because the street noise blared out too much of the material; sirens,
                          > construction equipment, accelerating trucks, honking horns, L trains
                          > passing overhead, etc.
                          >




                          GOOD point.

                          > I just listen to music now (when the weather is
                          > warmer) where such interruptions aren't critical. I don't think I could
                          > tolerate listening to music at the volume it would require to block out
                          > Chicago's street noise.
                          >




                          THERE is just too much noise in general.


                          > As a matter of fact, I sort of consider my
                          > headphones as personal safety equipment to protect my hearing. One time
                          > a Chicago cop drove by me when I didn't have my headphones on and
                          > sounded his buzzer (probably because I was riding outside the door
                          > zone). It knocked out my hearing in my left ear for about 10 minutes and
                          > my ears rang for about half an hour after that. When angry cagers honk
                          > at me for taking a lane my headphones help muffle their loud, shrill
                          > horns. I am less inclined to respond to their screaming at me to get off
                          > the road, get on the sidewalk, etc. when I have headphones on too.
                          >








                          I HAVE heard before on this list or elsewhere that emergency vehicles of
                          all sorts have actually had to increase the volume of their sirens and
                          things to compensate for automobiles being better insulated against
                          external noise and also because air conditioning is standard equipment,
                          so car windows are closed all the time. It might also be because drivers
                          are doing so many other things in their cars.

                          > I
                          > always ride with a mirror so I know what's going on around me 360
                          > degrees. Even with headphones I can still hear enough traffic noise to
                          > not jeopardize my safety. I don't need to hear that traffic noise at
                          > full volume.
                          >





                          HOW about the safety of others? Okay, I don't want to dwell on the issue
                          of cyclists saying they still hear enough with headphones on, but while
                          cycling I hear lots of important things which are barely audible above
                          the din, which tells me I should not wear headphones, even if I had
                          mirrors.

                          So it seems the situation we have is one where everyone is passing the
                          buck with their/of their habits, and it is going in a circle and we are
                          all suffering.

                          When there is almost no background noise EXTERNAL to my body, I hear a
                          ringing caused in part by exposure to some very loud music and other
                          sounds in the past. So even silence is not ideal.

                          T


                          >
                          > --Bob Matter
                          >
                          >
                          > _._,___


                          --
                          --------------------------------------------

                          Todd Edelman
                          Director
                          Green Idea Factory

                          Korunní 72
                          CZ-10100 Praha 10
                          Czech Republic

                          ++420 605 915 970
                          ++420 222 517 832
                          Skype: toddedelman

                          edelman@...
                          http://www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain

                          Green Idea Factory,
                          a member of World Carfree Network
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