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8451Re: [carfree_cities] Re: 20mph/30kph minimum

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  • Todd Edelman
    May 5 12:30 PM
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      Stefan and Chris and all,

      I didnt mean to imply that you could do Tempo 30
      without traffic calming devices like the ones you
      mention including:

      ISA and NEVs.... Chris?

      Help us out, brother, what do those stand for?

      T,
      T,
      WCN




      --- Stefan Langeveld <blw@...> wrote:
      > Chris,
      > your wife made a crucial point. For all nowadays
      > cars, 30 km/h is
      > darn slow. So, even in those 30 km/h zones , 85% of
      > cars go above
      > that
      > limit (research by road safety NGO), in spite of
      > speed humps; they
      > slow a car 'during' 15 meters or so.
      > Cities will implement such zones (getting grants for
      > this purpose),
      > but will not evaluate effects.
      > Converting to Tempo 30 streets, with or without
      > signs, humps,
      > campaign is clearly not enough.
      > 30 is an appropiate speed in built up areas, but
      > even without
      > touching the accelerator, cars will go faster.
      > There are these remedies
      > 1. ISA
      > 2. Lane narrowing and/or meandering.
      > 3. NEVs (& various cycles of course), for inner
      > city trips. In
      > those, 30 km/h is a proper speed.
      > Still not sure which is best. Both cost a lot (in
      > time-to-achieve and
      > money, although one can achieve a lot with (2:)
      > strategic placement
      > of blocks or cones that make a lane 2.0 m wide,
      > before crossroads and
      > highspeed stretches).
      >
      >
      > --- In carfree_cities@yahoogroups.com, Todd Edelman
      > <traintowardsthefuture@y...> wrote:
      > > In a follow-up to my earlier message, my wife (the
      > > driver in the
      > > house) informed me that 20mph is about the slowest
      > she
      > > can drive for
      > > extended periods. Does anyone else have anecdotal
      > > evidence to support
      > > that? I know it's the wrong list to ask, but
      > perhaps
      > > there are a few
      > > recovered drivers out there. ;)
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > ~chris
      > >
      > > Todd: 20mph or 30kph (30km) is the standard MAX.
      > > operating speed for a growing number of built up
      > areas
      > > in European towns.
      > >
      > > Here is some info if you are new to this:
      > >
      > > "Tempo 30" campaign from VCD in Germany (in
      > German,
      > > use Babelfish or other translator):
      > > www.vcd.org
      > > click on "kampagnen" at top,
      > > click on "Mehr Tempo 30" down the page...
      > >
      > > VCD is the alternative mobility assoc. in Germany
      > to
      > > ADAC and includes trains, bikes, even walking as
      > part
      > > of full hearty German offering of mobility.
      > > +
      > >
      > > "Cycling: The way ahead" at
      > >
      >
      http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/cycling/cycling_en.pdf
      > >
      > >
      > > see pages 35 to 36 starting with "Combining safety
      > > measures" and including very excellent graphs
      > which
      > > you should convert into mph as necessary for your
      > own
      > > purposes! No permission necessary, just polite
      > mention
      > > of source.
      > >
      > > --
      > >
      > > I once did a 30kph test with a friend in Prague in
      > my
      > > neighborhood. On level streets where speed limit
      > is
      > > normally 50kph 30 seemed slow (darn!) but problem
      > was
      > > going up a long hill, where car "didnt like" going
      > > 30kph due to transmission ratios - it was revving
      > too
      > > high for 2nd gear... but 3rd would be a problem
      > too.
      > > This is for a manual transmission of course, which
      > > almost all European cars have as standard.
      > >
      > > I dont understand the problem with anything under
      > > 20/30 being a problem on level surfaces and
      > automatic
      > > transmissions. Probably American or all automobile
      > > engineers dont really think anyone wants to go
      > that
      > > slow except in the parking lot, drive thru, or
      > > automatic car wash, so they optimise throttle for
      > > higher speeds.?
      > >
      > > I just thought of a idea related to this, but to
      > find
      > > out more you are gonna have to contact me
      > OFF-LIST.
      > > Hint: Cruise control.
      > >
      > > Todd, World Recovered Drivers Net(foot)work
      >
      >
      >
      >
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