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Re: [carferry] Durbin vs. the Badger

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  • Michael Kehoe
    Be that as it may, the political decision over the power plant is over. The Badger must either convert or find a new disposal method or it will be required to
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 6, 2013
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      Be that as it may, the political decision over the power plant is over. The Badger must either convert or find a new disposal method or it will be required to cease operation. I wish it were otherwise, but the reality is that if the owners continue to pin their hopes on changing minds, they will lose.

      Mike


      On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
       

      While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the "environmental" war against the Badger.

      Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore.  (I can count seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.)  I noted that the Chicago Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual amounts were.

      Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin.  I think many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented in the magazine.

      You can find the article here:

      If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News did a good job of summarizing the article:

      The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system, but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.

      If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our cause by helping to get the word out.  Thanks very much.

      Bill Christopher
      Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)




      --
      NEW ADDRESS

      Michael E. Kehoe
      wb9pzi@...
      836 - 65th Street
      #2 (Upper)
      Kenosha, WI 53143-5038
      262.658.1088

    • bc-rail@att.net
      They told me they are engineering a solution right now and expect to make the deadline. What worries me is the next attack. I don t think the owners of Lake
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 6, 2013
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        They told me they are engineering a solution right now and expect to make the deadline. What worries me is the next attack. I don't think the owners of Lake Express will rest unless they succeed in shutting down the Badger, in hopes of capturing her business. They won't get mine; I rode LE in 2004 but never will again.

        BC

        --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kehoe <wb9pzi@...> wrote:
        >
        > Be that as it may, the political decision over the power plant is over. The
        > Badger must either convert or find a new disposal method or it will be
        > required to cease operation. I wish it were otherwise, but the reality is
        > that if the owners continue to pin their hopes on changing minds, they will
        > lose.
        >
        > Mike
        >
        >
        > On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in
        > > the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the
        > > "environmental" war against the Badger.
        > >
        > > Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a
        > > convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace
        > > amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many
        > > coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore. (I can count
        > > seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant
        > > Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.) I noted that the Chicago
        > > Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy
        > > metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual
        > > amounts were.
        > >
        > > Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link
        > > between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin. I think
        > > many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented
        > > in the magazine.
        > >
        > > You can find the article here:
        > > http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/outer-boundary#!article-3/c16gd
        > >
        > > If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News
        > > did a good job of summarizing the article:
        > >
        > > http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/70828-magazine-ties-anti-ss-badger-lobbying-effort-to-competition-not-environmental-concerns
        > >
        > > The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system,
        > > but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.
        > >
        > > If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our
        > > cause by helping to get the word out. Thanks very much.
        > >
        > > Bill Christopher
        > > Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > *NEW ADDRESS*
        >
        > Michael E. Kehoe
        > wb9pzi@...
        > 836 - 65th Street
        > #2 (Upper)
        > Kenosha, WI 53143-5038
        > 262.658.1088
        >
      • amb3573
        I don t think Lake Express would try another environmental campaign against the Badger. It would be too predictable. If they tried to do something else I would
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 7, 2013
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           I don't think Lake Express would try another environmental campaign against the Badger. It would be too predictable. If they tried to do something else I would think it would be totally unrelated to the environment. Also I would think there is only so much money the management of Lake Express would throw out there on lobbying that failed to generate the desired result of closing the Badger down. I am sure the Lubar's will get tired of spending their money on stuff like that and not getting any results.

           

          I don't think LMC's goal was to change anyone's mind, but instead get more time for a Natural Gas conversion..As far as politics goes, Lake Express and the other environmental groups lobbying against them getting more time, pretty much gave LMC the green light to continue operating on coal. Its going to be very hard for the Badger's opposition to oppose them for coal use, when they lobbied against them getting more time so they could burn natural gas or lobbying against the grant for diesel engines



          --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, <carferry@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          They told me they are engineering a solution right now and expect to make the deadline. What worries me is the next attack. I don't think the owners of Lake Express will rest unless they succeed in shutting down the Badger, in hopes of capturing her business. They won't get mine; I rode LE in 2004 but never will again.

          BC

          --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kehoe <wb9pzi@...> wrote:
          >
          > Be that as it may, the political decision over the power plant is over. The
          > Badger must either convert or find a new disposal method or it will be
          > required to cease operation. I wish it were otherwise, but the reality is
          > that if the owners continue to pin their hopes on changing minds, they will
          > lose.
          >
          > Mike
          >
          >
          > On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in
          > > the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the
          > > "environmental" war against the Badger.
          > >
          > > Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a
          > > convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace
          > > amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many
          > > coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore. (I can count
          > > seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant
          > > Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.) I noted that the Chicago
          > > Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy
          > > metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual
          > > amounts were.
          > >
          > > Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link
          > > between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin. I think
          > > many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented
          > > in the magazine.
          > >
          > > You can find the article here:
          > > http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/outer-boundary#!article-3/c16gd
          > >
          > > If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News
          > > did a good job of summarizing the article:
          > >
          > > http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/70828-magazine-ties-anti-ss-badger-lobbying-effort-to-competition-not-environmental-concerns
          > >
          > > The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system,
          > > but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.
          > >
          > > If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our
          > > cause by helping to get the word out. Thanks very much.
          > >
          > > Bill Christopher
          > > Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > *NEW ADDRESS*
          >
          > Michael E. Kehoe
          > wb9pzi@...
          > 836 - 65th Street
          > #2 (Upper)
          > Kenosha, WI 53143-5038
          > 262.658.1088
          >
        • Michael McGuire
          The Ludington Daily News reports that the consent agreement between LMC and the U.S. EPA has not yet been completed.
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 7, 2013
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            The Ludington Daily News reports that the "consent agreement" between LMC and the U.S. EPA has not yet been completed.

            http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/72846-good-summer-for-ss-badger?newsgroup_id=

            A short excerpt:


            "In March the EPA and the U.S. Department of Justice announced it would accept public comments on the proposal to give LMC two years to complete construction on board the Badger of a means to store the coal ash generated by the coal-fired steamship, the last known to be operating in the United States, and develop a way to transfer and dispose of the ash on land.
            In late July, the EPA, without comment or fanfare, posted on its website the more than 7,000 comments the proposal generated during a public comment session in spring.

            Meanwhile, according to information sent anonymously to the Ludington Daily News, LMC has proposed a schedule of work to meet the proposed settlement. The Department of Justice, which is charged with reviewing public comments and making a recommendation whether to accept the consent decree, which a federal judge would have to approve, has made no comment about progress toward a resolution.

            LMC, according to Brown, “has not received a final decision from the DOJ or EPA.”


            So, not only has most of the engineering been done, but the SS Badger's owners have proposed a schedule of work to the government to get the work done. This is a completely unique engineering problem and solution so it will likely take a while to do the work on the ship, do the work on the shore, test and fine-tune. That isn't and can't be good news since the work will need to be done during the winter, non-sailing season.

            The Department of Justice is apparently still reviewing the proposed consent decree and the comments sent to the EPA.

            A slightly shorter story on LMC not hearing from the government is at:

            http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/72847-lmc-still-waiting-on-word-from-department-of-justice-about-consent-decree-with-epa-to-end-coal-ash-discharge

            Michael D. McGuire
            Grand Rapids, MI
            mdmcguire@...

          • elwefel
            I have to agree with Mike.. Unfortunately in this case, as in most, politics is the reality and the facts no longer matter. Get on with the job at hand and be
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 7, 2013
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              I have to agree with Mike.. Unfortunately in this case, as in most, politics is the reality and the facts no longer matter.  Get on with the job at hand and be prepared for further attacks.  Elly Wefel, Retired Rail and former C&O employee in Michigan.  



              --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, <carferry@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Be that as it may, the political decision over the power plant is over. The Badger must either convert or find a new disposal method or it will be required to cease operation. I wish it were otherwise, but the reality is that if the owners continue to pin their hopes on changing minds, they will lose.

              Mike


              On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
               
              While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the "environmental" war against the Badger.

              Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore.  (I can count seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.)  I noted that the Chicago Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual amounts were.

              Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin.  I think many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented in the magazine.

              You can find the article here:

              If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News did a good job of summarizing the article:

              The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system, but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.

              If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our cause by helping to get the word out.  Thanks very much.

              Bill Christopher
              Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)



              --
              NEW ADDRESS

              Michael E. Kehoe
              wb9pzi@...
              836 - 65th Street
              #2 (Upper)
              Kenosha, WI 53143-5038
              262.658.1088

            • vanousterhout
              The problem with the Badger s Outer Boundary conspiracy theory campaign is that they lobbied Durbin heavily and forced him to respond - three years after
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 12, 2013
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                The problem with the Badger's Outer Boundary conspiracy theory campaign is that they lobbied Durbin heavily and forced him to respond - three years after making empty promises to coax a grace period out of the Bush EPA. First they told Durbin that they needed just a bit more time for an CNG/LNG conversion while working at the same time on a permanent exemption via Congressmen Huizenga and Petri. Then they just gave up on the CNG/LNG story and just pushed at Durbin demanding a permanent exemption for dumping. Sure, there's probably some politics at play, but it looks pretty clear that LMC tried to rope-a-dope a US Senator and reaped what they sowed. They were working two different angles and got caught.


                11/22/2011 - LMC publicly called for suuporters to contact Dick Durbin in support of the Huizenga-Petri-Benishek permanent exemption via their SOS Badger group.
                https://www.facebook.com/SOSBadger/posts/186388758116667

                2/29/2012 - SS Badger owner Bob Manglitz and his lobbyist meet with Dick Durbin in DC.
                http://www.durbin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/photos?ID=de92cf6a-a3eb-49b7-a30e-dbf597ef75a8

                March 2012 - Durbin replied to statements made by Manglitz in the meeting - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin.senate.gov%2Fpublic%2Findex.cfm%2Ffiles%2Fserve%3FFile_id%3D9c1d91bd-794f-4ae0-bfeb-2e0af77bf9bc&ei=MHIwUq38JoigyAHd54DoDg&usg=AFQjCNH62X1tVf5rTyoVIf9Gbk_PG7zfgg&sig2=prb9ZhEPdNNJL_W-7cr6fQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWc


                With regards to the "environmental war" against the SS Badger, it was the Bush EPA that started the ball rolling in 2008 - brought on by a lawsuit that forced thousands of ships into the VGP program. The Ludington Daily News covered it all in a lengthy front page story years back. LMC vowed then to re-engineer the ship by 2011 to stop dumping.

                http://www.scribd.com/doc/45546825/2009-0601-Coal-Ash-Problem-for-SS-Badger-ferry-News-part-1
                http://www.scribd.com/doc/45546871/2009-0601-Coal-Ash-Problem-for-SS-Badger-ferry-News-part-2


                The whole thing is just a long line of half-truths, schemes and stunts and self-inflicted consequences.



                --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
                >
                > While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the "environmental" war against the Badger.
                >
                > Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore. (I can count seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.) I noted that the Chicago Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual amounts were.
                >
                > Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin. I think many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented in the magazine.
                >
                > You can find the article here:
                > http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/outer-boundary#!article-3/c16gd
                >
                > If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News did a good job of summarizing the article:
                > http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/70828-magazine-ties-anti-ss-badger-lobbying-effort-to-competition-not-environmental-concerns
                >
                > The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system, but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.
                >
                > If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our cause by helping to get the word out. Thanks very much.
                >
                > Bill Christopher
                > Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)
                >
              • amb3573
                Yohoho. easy there Vanousterhout. I am trying to find out how your post proves the Outer Boundary Article is inaccurate or as you say, If memory serves the
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 12, 2013
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                  Yohoho. easy there Vanousterhout.

                   

                  I am trying to find out how your post proves the Outer Boundary Article is inaccurate or as you say, If memory serves the magazine is offering a cash reward to any one who can prove any of it didn't happen. You should try to collect it, if you have some inside knowledge.

                   

                  Seems to me, these dates you mention occurred after Durbin came out in opposition.

                   

                  One question Vanousterhout? Is it Chris or James, I think you have used both.

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   



                  --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, <carferry@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  The problem with the Badger's Outer Boundary conspiracy theory campaign is that they lobbied Durbin heavily and forced him to respond - three years after making empty promises to coax a grace period out of the Bush EPA. First they told Durbin that they needed just a bit more time for an CNG/LNG conversion while working at the same time on a permanent exemption via Congressmen Huizenga and Petri. Then they just gave up on the CNG/LNG story and just pushed at Durbin demanding a permanent exemption for dumping. Sure, there's probably some politics at play, but it looks pretty clear that LMC tried to rope-a-dope a US Senator and reaped what they sowed. They were working two different angles and got caught.


                  11/22/2011 - LMC publicly called for suuporters to contact Dick Durbin in support of the Huizenga-Petri-Benishek permanent exemption via their SOS Badger group.
                  https://www.facebook.com/SOSBadger/posts/186388758116667

                  2/29/2012 - SS Badger owner Bob Manglitz and his lobbyist meet with Dick Durbin in DC.
                  http://www.durbin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/photos?ID=de92cf6a-a3eb-49b7-a30e-dbf597ef75a8

                  March 2012 - Durbin replied to statements made by Manglitz in the meeting - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.durbin.senate.gov%2Fpublic%2Findex.cfm%2Ffiles%2Fserve%3FFile_id%3D9c1d91bd-794f-4ae0-bfeb-2e0af77bf9bc&ei=MHIwUq38JoigyAHd54DoDg&usg=AFQjCNH62X1tVf5rTyoVIf9Gbk_PG7zfgg&sig2=prb9ZhEPdNNJL_W-7cr6fQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.aWc


                  With regards to the "environmental war" against the SS Badger, it was the Bush EPA that started the ball rolling in 2008 - brought on by a lawsuit that forced thousands of ships into the VGP program. The Ludington Daily News covered it all in a lengthy front page story years back. LMC vowed then to re-engineer the ship by 2011 to stop dumping.

                  http://www.scribd.com/doc/45546825/2009-0601-Coal-Ash-Problem-for-SS-Badger-ferry-News-part-1
                  http://www.scribd.com/doc/45546871/2009-0601-Coal-Ash-Problem-for-SS-Badger-ferry-News-part-2


                  The whole thing is just a long line of half-truths, schemes and stunts and self-inflicted consequences.



                  --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Bill Christopher <bc-rail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > While riding the Badger this weekend, the crew alerted me to an article in the Spring 2013 issue of Outer Boundary Magazine that deconstructs the "environmental" war against the Badger.
                  >
                  > Editor Steve Krueger examines the Badger's ash output and makes a convincing argument that the heavy metals released are in such trace amounts that they are insignificant, especially considering how many coal-fired power plants line Lake Michigan's western shore. (I can count seven off the top of my head: State Line, Will County, Waukegan, Pleasant Prairie, Oak Creek, Sheboygan and Pulliam.) I noted that the Chicago Tribune, while accusing the Badger of dumping ash "concentrated" with heavy metals, never took the responsible step of reporting what the actual amounts were.
                  >
                  > Krueger goes a step farther by following the money, establishing a link between the lobbying efforts of Lake Express and Sen. Dick Durbin. I think many of us suspected this, but it was most interesting to see it documented in the magazine.
                  >
                  > You can find the article here:
                  > http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/outer-boundary#!article-3/c16gd
                  >
                  > If the above link doesn't work or loads too slow, the Ludington Daily News did a good job of summarizing the article:
                  > http://www.ludingtondailynews.com/news/70828-magazine-ties-anti-ss-badger-lobbying-effort-to-competition-not-environmental-concerns
                  >
                  > The Badger may overcome this hurdle by installing an ash capture system, but I fear this won't be the last "environmental" attack against her.
                  >
                  > If you'd like to see the Badger continue sailing, help our friends and our cause by helping to get the word out. Thanks very much.
                  >
                  > Bill Christopher
                  > Waukegan, Illinois (won't be voting for Durbin anytime soon)
                  >
                • vanousterhout
                  ... From Outer Boundary (a nice summation of your ongoing misinformation efforts on behalf of LMC) When you demonize something long enough, it wears down the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 12, 2013
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                    > I am trying to find out how your post proves the Outer Boundary
                    > Article is inaccurate or as you say, If memory serves the magazine > is offering a cash reward to any one who can prove any of it didn't
                    > happen. You should try to collect it, if you have some inside
                    > knowledge.

                    From Outer Boundary (a nice summation of your ongoing misinformation efforts on behalf of LMC)

                    "When you demonize something long enough, it wears down the public's willingness to logically look at a situation and eventually succumb to those who are economical with the truth."

                    Working with help from LMC, Outer Boundary makes the following claim:

                    "This is shown by the group's (Save our Great Lakes) loose interpretation of tow legal documents, the Watercraft Pollution Control Act of 1970 and the Michigan Supreme Court in the case Lake Carriers' Association v. Director, DNR 407 Mich. 424 (1979). The groups claim is the Act of 1970 prohibited the discharge of any material into Michigan waters and the Michigan Supreme Court ruled coal ash was included ... neither claim was accurate" -- see Outer Boundary Magazine, page 10, Spring 2013.

                    The problem with Outer Boundary's assertion is that it simply is not true. The EPA public comment files provide ample evidence of Michigan state law violations - an issue that LMC has been all too happy to address through proxies like Krueger/Outer Boundary and yourself. Deflect, attack, insult, deny, attack some more - all in an effort to wear down the public and distract them from the real issues.

                    In the end, none of it matters if LMC continues to refuse reasonable requests and instead chooses to pursue gimmicks and political favors.

                    With regard to Michigan state law violations, see:
                    http://www.scribd.com/doc/160707215/State-Legislative-and-Legal-comments-SS-Badger-coal-ash-discharge-consent-decree-April-2013

                    With regard to the challenge and the reward, feel free to keep your money.
                  • B. Tad Dunville
                    Vanousterhout said: The whole thing is just a long line of half-truths, schemes and stunts and self-inflicted consequences. Funny, it seems like your post
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 13, 2013
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                      Vanousterhout said:

                      "The whole thing is just a long line of half-truths, schemes and stunts and self-inflicted consequences. "

                      Funny, it seems like your post and the entire Durbin/EPA/Lake Express war is the exact same. I was recently reminded of the anti-badger/anti-business/anti-jobs scheme when I read Vladimir Putin's half-truthed KGB-esque propaganda piece in the NY Times. 

                      It's interesting to see that if those folks would just concentrate on their own ferry and their own state, how much better off things would be for them as well as others. Same with Putin. Dude, fix Russia. Fix Chicago. Fix your high speed ferry that's not running this AM. 

                      Vanousterhout, if you don't like the Badger, why are you here? This is not a place for such opinion. It's a private group celebrating the ferries of the Great Lakes. 



                    • amb3573
                      Really James,, I mean vanousterhout People site statutes incorrectly all the time, especially politicians. Ever wonder why the watercraft law was never
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 13, 2013
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                        Really James,, I mean "vanousterhout"

                         

                        People site statutes incorrectly all the time, especially politicians. Ever wonder why the watercraft law was never enforced on the SS Badger? Important quote from the article because what that court said was very important to how it is enforced.

                         

                        "The Michigan Supreme Court stated that the discharge of litter, sewage and oil would be forbidden to be jettison into the waters because it would render the water noxious and unwholesome and would be a detriment to public health and enjoyment of recreation. But they also went further stating the discharge of "all other liquid or solid materials" would not necessarily have the same impact on the quality of water leaving an open end to the types of discharges allowed, meaning a complete prohibition of material dumping into Michigan waters from a watercraft does not exist."

                        http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/outer-boundary#!article-3/c16gd

                         

                        "With regard to the challenge and the reward, feel free to keep your money." Well its not my money, its Outer Boundaries Money and I am not part of the magazine. And its easy to say keep the money, when you still did not discredit what it said.

                         

                        By the way LMC posted on Facebook that Lake Express did not sail this morning. Have a nice day James.

                         



                        --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, <carferry@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        > I am trying to find out how your post proves the Outer Boundary
                        > Article is inaccurate or as you say, If memory serves the magazine > is offering a cash reward to any one who can prove any of it didn't
                        > happen. You should try to collect it, if you have some inside
                        > knowledge.

                        From Outer Boundary (a nice summation of your ongoing misinformation efforts on behalf of LMC)

                        "When you demonize something long enough, it wears down the public's willingness to logically look at a situation and eventually succumb to those who are economical with the truth."

                        Working with help from LMC, Outer Boundary makes the following claim:

                        "This is shown by the group's (Save our Great Lakes) loose interpretation of tow legal documents, the Watercraft Pollution Control Act of 1970 and the Michigan Supreme Court in the case Lake Carriers' Association v. Director, DNR 407 Mich. 424 (1979). The groups claim is the Act of 1970 prohibited the discharge of any material into Michigan waters and the Michigan Supreme Court ruled coal ash was included ... neither claim was accurate" -- see Outer Boundary Magazine, page 10, Spring 2013.

                        The problem with Outer Boundary's assertion is that it simply is not true. The EPA public comment files provide ample evidence of Michigan state law violations - an issue that LMC has been all too happy to address through proxies like Krueger/Outer Boundary and yourself. Deflect, attack, insult, deny, attack some more - all in an effort to wear down the public and distract them from the real issues.

                        In the end, none of it matters if LMC continues to refuse reasonable requests and instead chooses to pursue gimmicks and political favors.

                        With regard to Michigan state law violations, see:
                        http://www.scribd.com/doc/160707215/State-Legislative-and-Legal-comments-SS-Badger-coal-ash-discharge-consent-decree-April-2013

                        With regard to the challenge and the reward, feel free to keep your money.
                      • jEFF Bittner
                        The Badger is undertaking interstate commerce.  Therefore as with railroad federal law supersedes state law & city ordinance in interstate commerce.  ie
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 13, 2013
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                          The Badger is undertaking interstate commerce.  Therefore as with railroad federal law supersedes state law & city ordinance in interstate commerce.  ie Washington D.C. passed a law ordinance that did not allow hazardous materials to be shipped through the city, because these were interstate shipments the law could not be enforced.   I wonder to what degree that muddies the effect of state law, also any treaties with Canada that pertain to the Great Lakes also supersede state and federal laws. 


                          From: vanousterhout <vanousterhout@...>
                          To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:30 PM
                          Subject: [carferry] Re: Durbin vs. the Badger

                           


                          > I am trying to find out how your post proves the Outer Boundary
                          > Article is inaccurate or as you say, If memory serves the magazine > is offering a cash reward to any one who can prove any of it didn't
                          > happen. You should try to collect it, if you have some inside
                          > knowledge.

                          From Outer Boundary (a nice summation of your ongoing misinformation efforts on behalf of LMC)

                          "When you demonize something long enough, it wears down the public's willingness to logically look at a situation and eventually succumb to those who are economical with the truth."

                          Working with help from LMC, Outer Boundary makes the following claim:

                          "This is shown by the group's (Save our Great Lakes) loose interpretation of tow legal documents, the Watercraft Pollution Control Act of 1970 and the Michigan Supreme Court in the case Lake Carriers' Association v. Director, DNR 407 Mich. 424 (1979). The groups claim is the Act of 1970 prohibited the discharge of any material into Michigan waters and the Michigan Supreme Court ruled coal ash was included ... neither claim was accurate" -- see Outer Boundary Magazine, page 10, Spring 2013.

                          The problem with Outer Boundary's assertion is that it simply is not true. The EPA public comment files provide ample evidence of Michigan state law violations - an issue that LMC has been all too happy to address through proxies like Krueger/Outer Boundary and yourself. Deflect, attack, insult, deny, attack some more - all in an effort to wear down the public and distract them from the real issues.

                          In the end, none of it matters if LMC continues to refuse reasonable requests and instead chooses to pursue gimmicks and political favors.

                          With regard to Michigan state law violations, see:
                          http://www.scribd.com/doc/160707215/State-Legislative-and-Legal-comments-SS-Badger-coal-ash-discharge-consent-decree-April-2013

                          With regard to the challenge and the reward, feel free to keep your money.



                        • Michael McGuire
                          I think that trashing the LMC ownership for meeting with and lobbying Sen. Durbin is grossly unfair. It s interesting that very few who are aware of this
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 13, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think that trashing the LMC ownership for meeting with and lobbying Sen. Durbin is grossly unfair. It's interesting that very few who are aware of this debate even make a minimal effort to look at facts and realities without putting a "spin" on them that favors their position. Objectivity is apparent by its absence. What follows is, hopefully, objective.

                            1. LMC DID ask for more time to examine CNG/LNG and they weren't two-faced with the Senator about that. They didn't commit to it and it is an innovative and clean solution that would solve a lot of problems. The problem is that, as a result of looking at it, LMC and everyone else involved found it impractical from engineering, economic and (most importantly) fuel supply perspectives - at least at this time on Lake Michigan. Meeting with your opponent and attempting to explain your position and possible plans is in no way a "rope-a-dope" of anyone. Everyone understands what is happening. Sen. Durbin was gunning for the Badger long before the cited 2011 and 2012 meetings. LMC would likely much rather have tried the futuristic solution but given the age and configuration of the boat, and difficulty of designing, engineering and implementing a "one-off" solution for the coal-fired Badger, it couldn't be done. IF it is ever done on the Lakes, it will likely be on a cargo vessel that has a long earning season and low crew costs, and for which the entire vessel would not have to have an extended and destructive shipyard period.

                            2. Pursing alternate legislative approaches with sympathetic legislators is also common practice. Again, no "rope-a-dope." Does anyone really think that Sen. Durbin was unaware of the work that LMC was doing with the House members. Note, too, that they are different Houses of Congress and the Representatives are often much more willing to work with local constituents in their State and District than are hostile out-of-State Senators. "Working different angles" is not unusual, unethical or wrong. It is what any prudent person or company with a matter before a legislative body does. I see it every day in my own legislative work. It just makes sense to talk to everyone involved and try to reach a good solution.

                            3. Demonizing the people on the other side of an issue with half-truths and selective citation of sources probably doesn't do much to help one's position. LMC made lots of mistakes and false starts on the issue of the Badger's coal ash. That is real life. It's a small company and it's a very big problem. The technology developed much more slowly that LMC would have hoped.

                            4. The Outer Boundary magazine story (and the Ludington paper story) could, and should, have been better written and documented, but they are appropriately sources journalism and contain more actual facts that almost any other written or on-line work. Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. The Outer Boundary work does "follow the money" and connections to show a clear economic/political motivation (having virtually nothing to do with good environmental stewardship) for Durbin's position. (Especially in light of his ignoring the threat to Lake Michigan from Asian carp and Illinois pollution with both sewage and refinery waste and runoff in northern Illinois). Durbin's links to lobbyists for Sheldon Lubar and family are well-documented. Lubar's holdings - in addition to the competing Lake Michigan ferry that is clearly and openly trying to drive the Badger out of business - include a HUGE (polluting) coal business. Are Durbin and Lubar doing a " rope-a-dope?" Or is it only bad when LMC isn't coherent and consistent over time? 

                            Michael D. McGuire
                            Grand Rapids, MI
                            mdmcguire@...

                          • B. Tad Dunville
                            Michael McGuire writes: Most of the big city journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 16, 2013
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                              Michael McGuire writes: "Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. "

                              This is a great point. If you go back and read the Chicago Trib articles, it's very hard to find much in the way of facts. In other words, it's very hard to find a cited number, especially one that's put in perspective. It's a lot of big scary words. They might as well hire Tom Clancy to start writing these articles, and throw a little KGB espionage in, because it's got little basis in fact.

                              Also, try writing the newspaperman who writes these articles. He won't argue the points with you, it's like arguing with a child. He just keeps positing his opinion. 

                              Tad
                            • Nancy Keith
                              Where s my Like button!! There s so much truth in this posting. (I know from personal experience that they either don t respond or just regurgitate what
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 16, 2013
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                                Where's my "Like" button!!

                                There's so much truth in this posting.  (I know from personal experience that they either don't respond or just regurgitate what they have already lied.)

                                Give me facts, not agenda-driven bilge! 

                                Nancy



                                On 9/16/2013 12:58 PM, B. Tad Dunville wrote:
                                Michael McGuire writes: "Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. "

                                This is a great point. If you go back and read the Chicago Trib articles, it's very hard to find much in the way of facts. In other words, it's very hard to find a cited number, especially one that's put in perspective. It's a lot of big scary words. They might as well hire Tom Clancy to start writing these articles, and throw a little KGB espionage in, because it's got little basis in fact.

                                Also, try writing the newspaperman who writes these articles. He won't argue the points with you, it's like arguing with a child. He just keeps positing his opinion. 

                                Tad


                              • Lee Barber
                                Hey Nancy... Will this do?   Now that the Badger has been targeted as the culprit of the coal-ash problem somehow all the liberal tree-huggers have rallied
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 18, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hey Nancy... Will this do?
                                   
                                  Now that the Badger has been targeted as the culprit of the coal-ash problem somehow all the liberal tree-huggers have rallied behind Sen. Dick Durbin and have blamed the entire problem solely on the S.S. Badger. This entire episode has taken this political football and has the EPA interested all the way to the Senate floor. Not once in his speeches did Sen. Durbin make mention that that the Badger wasn’t the only boat on the Lakes that began this problem but it seems he has a personal vendetta against the Lake Michigan Carferry itself. Despite the stupidity he spouts forth on the senate floor with all of his pretty charts and graphs in a senatorial dog and pony show he has failed again to think about the history of the Lake Michigan car ferry service itself. Using his own figures and on his own charts and accounting for the following carferrys; The Three Boats of the C&O, (S.S. City Midland, S.S. Spartan S.S. Badger) the Eleven boats of the Pere Marquette,(S.S. Pere Marquette 15 S.S. Pere Marquette 16 S.S. Pere Marquette 17 S.S. Pere Marquette 18I S.S. Pere Marquette 18II S.S. Pere Marquette 19 S.S. Pere Marquette 20 S.S. Pere Marquette 21 S.S. Pere Marquette 22 S.S. City of Saginaw 31 S.S. City of Flint 32) The Three boats of the Ann Arbor R.R.(not sure of the designation) and the Three boats of the Grand Trunk, (S.S. Grand Rapids S.S. A.K. Atkinson SS City of Milwaukee) and factoring in his very own facts and figures of the amount of coal ash dispersed by them and over time it must now be possible to walk across Lake Michigan and never get your feet wet. If I trust my calculator, that figures out at 500 tons per boat at around 10,000 million tons. What say yea now Sen. Dick? This fool wants to solve the problem of just one Carferry but what he seems to forget is that this policy of dumping coal-ash into the Great Lakes has gone on for over one hundred years. Now that he has the Badger in his sights, he forgets that the original owner of the S.S. Badger was ordered by the Pere Marquette Railroad and they have run ships a crossed and up and down the lakes since 1897. To this liberal butthead I say, go back to something import and you know what you are talking about rather than blathering about a situation you have no business being in. Without even mentioning the Lake speeder who desperately wants to shutdown the competition and pointing fingers towards Ludington to sink the Badger once and for all. Not one word about the problem in his own state about the “Asian Carp” that will flow into the Great Lakes through Illinois rivers that threaten the very lively hood of the fishing sports and industry that no one has yet to address. If this Senator is so concerned about the pollution of the Badger why not look into the dangers of his own state where he seems totally indifferent to the problems of Illinois pollution, sewage and refinery waste flowing into Lake Michigan. If it were possible I would like to say to this politician, “If you don’t learn from history, you will never learn anything.” I certainly hope this situation resolves itself before stupidity ruins the last piece of Lake Michigan Carferry history.

                                  From: Nancy Keith <keithnancy@...>
                                  To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                                  Cc: B. Tad Dunville <tdunville@...>
                                  Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:39 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [carferry] Re: Durbin vs. the Badger
                                   

                                  Where's my "Like" button!!

                                  There's so much truth in this posting.  (I know from personal experience that they either don't respond or just regurgitate what they have already lied.)

                                  Give me facts, not agenda-driven bilge! 

                                  Nancy



                                  On 9/16/2013 12:58 PM, B. Tad Dunville wrote:
                                  Michael McGuire writes: "Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. "

                                  This is a great point. If you go back and read the Chicago Trib articles, it's very hard to find much in the way of facts. In other words, it's very hard to find a cited number, especially one that's put in perspective. It's a lot of big scary words. They might as well hire Tom Clancy to start writing these articles, and throw a little KGB espionage in, because it's got little basis in fact.

                                  Also, try writing the newspaperman who writes these articles. He won't argue the points with you, it's like arguing with a child. He just keeps positing his opinion. 

                                  Tad

                                • Les Bagley
                                  There s actually even more historic coal ash for Sen. Durbin to worry about. The Ann Arbor actually had SEVEN boats over time. AA! through AA7. (Some were
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 18, 2013
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                                    There's actually even more historic coal ash for Sen. Durbin to worry about. The Ann Arbor actually had SEVEN boats over time. AA! through AA7.  (Some were renamed later, and two were converted to diesel, becoming the Arthur Atkinson and the Viking.)  And don't forget the thousands of freighters, passenger steamers, tankers, tugs and fishing boats that at one time burned coal too.  It's a miracle Lake Michigan hasn't been filled in completely to make a mountain out of the esteemed Senator's mole hill, isn't it?

                                    Les B.

                                    On 9/18/2013 8:23 PM, Lee Barber wrote:
                                     
                                    Hey Nancy... Will this do?
                                     
                                    Now that the Badger has been targeted as the culprit of the coal-ash problem somehow all the liberal tree-huggers have rallied behind Sen. Dick Durbin and have blamed the entire problem solely on the S.S. Badger. This entire episode has taken this political football and has the EPA interested all the way to the Senate floor. Not once in his speeches did Sen. Durbin make mention that that the Badger wasn’t the only boat on the Lakes that began this problem but it seems he has a personal vendetta against the Lake Michigan Carferry itself. Despite the stupidity he spouts forth on the senate floor with all of his pretty charts and graphs in a senatorial dog and pony show he has failed again to think about the history of the Lake Michigan car ferry service itself. Using his own figures and on his own charts and accounting for the following carferrys; The Three Boats of the C&O, (S.S. City Midland, S.S. Spartan S.S. Badger) the Eleven boats of the Pere Marquette,(S.S. Pere Marquette 15 S.S. Pere Marquette 16 S.S. Pere Marquette 17 S.S. Pere Marquette 18I S.S. Pere Marquette 18II S.S. Pere Marquette 19 S.S. Pere Marquette 20 S.S. Pere Marquette 21 S.S. Pere Marquette 22 S.S. City of Saginaw 31 S.S. City of Flint 32) The Three boats of the Ann Arbor R.R.(not sure of the designation) and the Three boats of the Grand Trunk, (S.S. Grand Rapids S.S. A.K. Atkinson SS City of Milwaukee) and factoring in his very own facts and figures of the amount of coal ash dispersed by them and over time it must now be possible to walk across Lake Michigan and never get your feet wet. If I trust my calculator, that figures out at 500 tons per boat at around 10,000 million tons. What say yea now Sen. Dick? This fool wants to solve the problem of just one Carferry but what he seems to forget is that this policy of dumping coal-ash into the Great Lakes has gone on for over one hundred years. Now that he has the Badger in his sights, he forgets that the original owner of the S.S. Badger was ordered by the Pere Marquette Railroad and they have run ships a crossed and up and down the lakes since 1897. To this liberal butthead I say, go back to something import and you know what you are talking about rather than blathering about a situation you have no business being in. Without even mentioning the Lake speeder who desperately wants to shutdown the competition and pointing fingers towards Ludington to sink the Badger once and for all. Not one word about the problem in his own state about the “Asian Carp” that will flow into the Great Lakes through Illinois rivers that threaten the very lively hood of the fishing sports and industry that no one has yet to address. If this Senator is so concerned about the pollution of the Badger why not look into the dangers of his own state where he seems totally indifferent to the problems of Illinois pollution, sewage and refinery waste flowing into Lake Michigan. If it were possible I would like to say to this politician, “If you don’t learn from history, you will never learn anything.” I certainly hope this situation resolves itself before stupidity ruins the last piece of Lake Michigan Carferry history.

                                    From: Nancy Keith <keithnancy@...>
                                    To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: B. Tad Dunville <tdunville@...>
                                    Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:39 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [carferry] Re: Durbin vs. the Badger
                                     

                                    Where's my "Like" button!!

                                    There's so much truth in this posting.  (I know from personal experience that they either don't respond or just regurgitate what they have already lied.)

                                    Give me facts, not agenda-driven bilge! 

                                    Nancy



                                    On 9/16/2013 12:58 PM, B. Tad Dunville wrote:
                                    Michael McGuire writes: "Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. "

                                    This is a great point. If you go back and read the Chicago Trib articles, it's very hard to find much in the way of facts. In other words, it's very hard to find a cited number, especially one that's put in perspective. It's a lot of big scary words. They might as well hire Tom Clancy to start writing these articles, and throw a little KGB espionage in, because it's got little basis in fact.

                                    Also, try writing the newspaperman who writes these articles. He won't argue the points with you, it's like arguing with a child. He just keeps positing his opinion. 

                                    Tad


                                  • Nancy Keith
                                    Thanks, Lee Barber. Do you have the Durbin email address? Maybe he should read your report... Unfortunately, first of all.... he has to care. As they say,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Sep 18, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      Thanks, Lee Barber.  Do you have the Durbin email address?  Maybe he should read your report...

                                      Unfortunately, first of all.... he has to care.

                                      As they say, "His mind is made up.  Don't confuse him with facts".

                                      And there was yet another story on the media today about the newest finding of Asian carp... didn't catch whether it was in Lake Michigan or one of its tributaries, but it was obviously advancing.  Once those monsters hit The Big Lake.... devastation.  No more fishing industry and the resulting fall-out from that.

                                      And he can prevent that!  But does he care?  That is not putting money into his own pockets, so no.  He doesn't.

                                      Maybe we should tell him that those Asian carp are going to eat up his little catamaran and make the whole Badger issue a moot point for him.  No catamaran, no profit.  And no Badger to fall back on for all those people who just don't WANT to take their cars and turbine parts through Chicago...

                                      Nancy



                                      On 9/18/2013 11:23 PM, Lee Barber wrote:
                                      Hey Nancy... Will this do?
                                       
                                      Now that the Badger has been targeted as the culprit of the coal-ash problem somehow all the liberal tree-huggers have rallied behind Sen. Dick Durbin and have blamed the entire problem solely on the S.S. Badger. This entire episode has taken this political football and has the EPA interested all the way to the Senate floor. Not once in his speeches did Sen. Durbin make mention that that the Badger wasn’t the only boat on the Lakes that began this problem but it seems he has a personal vendetta against the Lake Michigan Carferry itself. Despite the stupidity he spouts forth on the senate floor with all of his pretty charts and graphs in a senatorial dog and pony show he has failed again to think about the history of the Lake Michigan car ferry service itself. Using his own figures and on his own charts and accounting for the following carferrys; The Three Boats of the C&O, (S.S. City Midland, S.S. Spartan S.S. Badger) the Eleven boats of the Pere Marquette,(S.S. Pere Marquette 15 S.S. Pere Marquette 16 S.S. Pere Marquette 17 S.S. Pere Marquette 18I S.S. Pere Marquette 18II S.S. Pere Marquette 19 S.S. Pere Marquette 20 S.S. Pere Marquette 21 S.S. Pere Marquette 22 S.S. City of Saginaw 31 S.S. City of Flint 32) The Three boats of the Ann Arbor R.R.(not sure of the designation) and the Three boats of the Grand Trunk, (S.S. Grand Rapids S.S. A.K. Atkinson SS City of Milwaukee) and factoring in his very own facts and figures of the amount of coal ash dispersed by them and over time it must now be possible to walk across Lake Michigan and never get your feet wet. If I trust my calculator, that figures out at 500 tons per boat at around 10,000 million tons. What say yea now Sen. Dick? This fool wants to solve the problem of just one Carferry but what he seems to forget is that this policy of dumping coal-ash into the Great Lakes has gone on for over one hundred years. Now that he has the Badger in his sights, he forgets that the original owner of the S.S. Badger was ordered by the Pere Marquette Railroad and they have run ships a crossed and up and down the lakes since 1897. To this liberal butthead I say, go back to something import and you know what you are talking about rather than blathering about a situation you have no business being in. Without even mentioning the Lake speeder who desperately wants to shutdown the competition and pointing fingers towards Ludington to sink the Badger once and for all. Not one word about the problem in his own state about the “Asian Carp” that will flow into the Great Lakes through Illinois rivers that threaten the very lively hood of the fishing sports and industry that no one has yet to address. If this Senator is so concerned about the pollution of the Badger why not look into the dangers of his own state where he seems totally indifferent to the problems of Illinois pollution, sewage and refinery waste flowing into Lake Michigan. If it were possible I would like to say to this politician, “If you don’t learn from history, you will never learn anything.” I certainly hope this situation resolves itself before stupidity ruins the last piece of Lake Michigan Carferry history.


                                      From: Nancy Keith <keithnancy@...>
                                      To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                                      Cc: B. Tad Dunville <tdunville@...>
                                      Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 1:39 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [carferry] Re: Durbin vs. the Badger
                                       

                                      Where's my "Like" button!!

                                      There's so much truth in this posting.  (I know from personal experience that they either don't respond or just regurgitate what they have already lied.)

                                      Give me facts, not agenda-driven bilge! 

                                      Nancy



                                      On 9/16/2013 12:58 PM, B. Tad Dunville wrote:
                                      Michael McGuire writes: "Most of the "big city" journalism is rewrites of interest group propaganda and most of the on-line material IS interest group propaganda. Neither have much trace of attempting to look at both sides. "

                                      This is a great point. If you go back and read the Chicago Trib articles, it's very hard to find much in the way of facts. In other words, it's very hard to find a cited number, especially one that's put in perspective. It's a lot of big scary words. They might as well hire Tom Clancy to start writing these articles, and throw a little KGB espionage in, because it's got little basis in fact.

                                      Also, try writing the newspaperman who writes these articles. He won't argue the points with you, it's like arguing with a child. He just keeps positing his opinion. 

                                      Tad


                                    • Michael McGuire
                                      To be fair to all concerned, there doesn t seem to be a point in name-calling, hyperbole and polemics on either side of this (I guess) debate. Such generates
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Sep 19, 2013
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                                        To be fair to all concerned, there doesn't seem to be a point in name-calling, hyperbole and polemics on either "side" of this (I guess) debate. Such generates much heat and little light. Les Bagley's point about there having been hundreds, if not thousands, of vessels on the Lakes that dumped coal ash into the waters is one that seems to have escaped the attention of the anti-Badger crowd - including Senator Durbin. 

                                        Facts on the coal ash issue aside, the debate is probably pretty much over. With the consent decree, LMC is engineering an on-board storage and on-shore disposal system that should keep the Badger running for many years. 

                                        Coal-fired power plants along Lake Michigan are closing, too, by the way or at least the one in Muskegon is.

                                        There is little point in continuing to vilify Senator Durbin. People who care about the Badger and the Lakes should be working with him to make sure that further attacks on the Badger by competitors are seen for what they are - economic attacks - and in improving the Lakes and the experience of the people taking the Badger. Make Senator Durbin and ally and not a continuing enemy. And get him to pay some attention to the problems in his own jurisdiction.

                                        Michael D. McGuire
                                        Grand Rapids, MI
                                        mdmcguire@...

                                        IMHO, Lake Express is having its own problems with reliable service. It is a 'niche' operation with a very limited market and even more limited service. Competition, in a true sense, between the two ferries is actually minimal. The sooner Lake Express realizes that and everyone gets on with doing what they do, the better. The two companies have different routes, different customer bases, markedly different prices, different capabilities, and - to a large degree - different objectives. Unless Lake Express gets another - or a different- vessel, it seems ludicrous for either company to see the other as direct competition in any real sense.
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