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Re: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking

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  • albert blaser
    Stephen, Many thanks for the info on the Air Ports. I have been using some crude gestimates to figure out size, location above car deck, and spacing and am
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Stephen,

      Many thanks for the info on the Air Ports. I have been using some crude gestimates to figure out size, location above car deck, and spacing and am pleased to be better informed. A helpful member of our group who has built an HO scale model of the Badger sent me some Viking drawings (illustrations) with enough specs to get started. But I am lacking a plan view for spacing of cabins, etc. Your mention of "Item 61 from Specifications for AA #7" suggests that there is more detail available for research. Where can I find this information?

      I have been using two sources for photos and other inspiration: R. Warrick's The Ann Arbor Railroad and Grant Brown's Ninety Years Crossing Lake Michigan. Brown makes two references to the raising of the cabin deck on pages 156 and 158. One is "nearly four feet" and the other two feet as in your post. My drawing of the rebuild in 1965-66 gives clearance above the track at 19' 3".

      I chose 1:64, S scale, because the two principal sources of cars and locos offer Ann Arbor RR stock. Also, I've been modeling S scale narrow gauge for some time. I'd like to hear what your interests are too.

      Al Blaser


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: nyc21295
      To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 12:45 AM
      Subject: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking


      Al,

      Item 61, Air Ports, from the Specification for AA #7 should answer
      your question:

      "Air ports having 14 1/2" diameter glass shall be fitted in shell
      above main deck, spaced about 12 ft. center to Center 9'-6" above
      main deck. Above each line chock at main deck a 14" air port shall be
      fitted about 5'-6" above main deck. All above air ports to have
      malleable iron or brass frames rivited to shell plating, brass sash
      with 3/4" thick glass and suitable lugs with brass tumble bolt and
      butterfly nuts fitted so nuts cannot be backed off.

      In car deck space below windlass, three (3) 10" dia. air ports shall
      be fitted each side; in line room, two (2) 10" dia. air ports shall
      be fitted each side; all these air ports to have malleable cast iron
      frames, brass sash with 3/4" thick glass and cast iron covers.

      All air ports to be of Builders standard pattern."

      As for the windows in the deck house, those are covered under Item
      109, Joiner Work. Quoting only the portion that deals with the
      windows:

      "Windows in deck house will be in halves, arranged to slide up and
      down; windows to be fitted with outside screens having bronze wire
      and with wooden blinds with suitable stops fitted on the inside;
      doors and window casings to match adjacent woodwork and to be of
      substantial construction."

      I checked with a Viking elevation, and it seems that all of the air
      ports on the main deck were raised when she was rebuilt. I believe
      that it was 2'. The air ports above the line chocks remained at 5'-6".

      Unfortunatly, I have no idea as to when the windows in the deck house
      were replaced.

      Hope that this helps, look forward to seeing some progress photos. By
      the way, why 1/64" scale? Do you have S scale equipment?

      Take care,

      Stephen McMillan





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • pepsi24tony5
      Hello Group, What is the height of the Viking??? Cardeck to top of pilot house??? Or bottom to top of pilot house??? It seems the only measurment being shown
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2009
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        Hello Group,
        What is the height of the Viking??? Cardeck to top of pilot
        house??? Or bottom to top of pilot house??? It seems the only
        measurment being shown under alot of sites, is 19'6". AARTHA,
        Dowling Page, Later History of AA 6 & 7. This seems to be how deep
        it is in the water. And either the AA 7, or Viking dimensions show
        the same. Thanks. Bob Kalal


        --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "albert blaser" <a.blaser@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Stephen,
        >
        > Many thanks for the info on the Air Ports. I have been using some
        crude gestimates to figure out size, location above car deck, and
        spacing and am pleased to be better informed. A helpful member of
        our group who has built an HO scale model of the Badger sent me some
        Viking drawings (illustrations) with enough specs to get started.
        But I am lacking a plan view for spacing of cabins, etc. Your
        mention of "Item 61 from Specifications for AA #7" suggests that
        there is more detail available for research. Where can I find this
        information?
        >
        > I have been using two sources for photos and other inspiration: R.
        Warrick's The Ann Arbor Railroad and Grant Brown's Ninety Years
        Crossing Lake Michigan. Brown makes two references to the raising of
        the cabin deck on pages 156 and 158. One is "nearly four feet" and
        the other two feet as in your post. My drawing of the rebuild in
        1965-66 gives clearance above the track at 19' 3".
        >
        > I chose 1:64, S scale, because the two principal sources of cars
        and locos offer Ann Arbor RR stock. Also, I've been modeling S scale
        narrow gauge for some time. I'd like to hear what your interests are
        too.
        >
        > Al Blaser
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: nyc21295
        > To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 12:45 AM
        > Subject: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking
        >
        >
        > Al,
        >
        > Item 61, Air Ports, from the Specification for AA #7 should
        answer
        > your question:
        >
        > "Air ports having 14 1/2" diameter glass shall be fitted in
        shell
        > above main deck, spaced about 12 ft. center to Center 9'-6"
        above
        > main deck. Above each line chock at main deck a 14" air port
        shall be
        > fitted about 5'-6" above main deck. All above air ports to have
        > malleable iron or brass frames rivited to shell plating, brass
        sash
        > with 3/4" thick glass and suitable lugs with brass tumble bolt
        and
        > butterfly nuts fitted so nuts cannot be backed off.
        >
        > In car deck space below windlass, three (3) 10" dia. air ports
        shall
        > be fitted each side; in line room, two (2) 10" dia. air ports
        shall
        > be fitted each side; all these air ports to have malleable cast
        iron
        > frames, brass sash with 3/4" thick glass and cast iron covers.
        >
        > All air ports to be of Builders standard pattern."
        >
        > As for the windows in the deck house, those are covered under
        Item
        > 109, Joiner Work. Quoting only the portion that deals with the
        > windows:
        >
        > "Windows in deck house will be in halves, arranged to slide up
        and
        > down; windows to be fitted with outside screens having bronze
        wire
        > and with wooden blinds with suitable stops fitted on the inside;
        > doors and window casings to match adjacent woodwork and to be of
        > substantial construction."
        >
        > I checked with a Viking elevation, and it seems that all of the
        air
        > ports on the main deck were raised when she was rebuilt. I
        believe
        > that it was 2'. The air ports above the line chocks remained at
        5'-6".
        >
        > Unfortunatly, I have no idea as to when the windows in the deck
        house
        > were replaced.
        >
        > Hope that this helps, look forward to seeing some progress
        photos. By
        > the way, why 1/64" scale? Do you have S scale equipment?
        >
        > Take care,
        >
        > Stephen McMillan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bernard Haxel
        Hi Folks, I asked this same question a few years ago and got a good reply off- group (e-mailed to me but not posted). I don t have that message in front of me
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2009
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          Hi Folks,

          I asked this same question a few years ago and got a good reply off-
          group (e-mailed to me but not posted). I don't have that message in
          front of me but, as well as I can remember, the change had to do with
          a new govenment rule that passenger boats couldn't have wooden
          structures, for fire-prevention reasons. The Manitowoc boats,
          including Ann Arbor 7, had rectangular wooden windows in the cabins
          (City of Milwaukee still has them). These were all replaced with
          round metal portholes during the Viking conversion and the process
          was apparently begun before she went to Frasier. I guess PM 21 & 22
          underwent a similar conversion and maybe CofM was exempt because GT
          didn't carry many passengers.

          If you have D.C Jesse Burkhardt's Ann Arbor Railroad book, compare
          the picture of the fairly-new AA7 with wooden windows on page 55 to
          the one from the late 1950s on page 62 showing round windows in the
          passenger and captain's cabins.

          The e-mail I received at the time had more details, so I will try to
          find that message and relate whatever else is of interest. I also
          have some pictures of Viking portholes, which show how the conversion
          was done -- I'll try to find those, too.

          - Bernard Haxel

          --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "pepsi24tony5" <k.kalal@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Group,
          > When the #7 was launched, she had square windows under the
          pilot
          > house. Before she went in for a refit to become the Viking, as when
          > she was going thru the locks, she had port holes under the pilot
          > house. When did that change happen??? thanks. Bob K.
          >
        • Bernard Haxel
          Hi Folks, I can t find any more information about the change from wooden to metal windows on the boats -- I guess that e-mail message was lost when my hard
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 18, 2009
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            Hi Folks,

            I can't find any more information about the change from wooden to
            metal windows on the boats -- I guess that e-mail message was lost
            when my hard disc crashed! Does anyone else know more about when and
            where the Ann Arbor 7 window conversion was begun?

            I posted some pictures in the Photos section, in an album called
            "Bernard Haxel's Photos":

            The first picture shows some of the nicely-restored wooden windows in
            the captain's and passenger cabins on the City of Milwaukee, which
            are the same as those on AA7. Second is a view of the front of the
            Viking, showing round windows in the same cabins. Next are a couple
            of views of the round windows on the Viking from the interior. They
            just welded a plate with a round hole in it into each rectangular
            window opening. The portholes look pretty good in the mess, where
            they paneled around them. Notice the electric heater under each
            window -- everything steam-powered was elliminated in the conversion,
            including the radiators. The next picture shows the welded-in plates
            from the outside. All the original stuff was riveted together and
            the conversion work was welded, so it's pretty obvious.

            There are also some pictures to address the question of the
            heightening of the Viking. I've heard that she was made 4 feet
            taller, and these pictures bear that out. The new section was added
            just above the level of the car deck. The first picture shows this
            from the outside where the welding makes the new plates obvious.
            (Compare the welded middle seam in this view to the riveted upper
            one.) In the second picture, at the bow the draft marks make 4 feet
            seem about right. Finally, inside on the car deck, the added parts
            of the ribs are the welded sloping sections just above the deck.

            - Bernard
          • Jerry Klopfer
            Good Morning, The Grand Rapids also received port holes in  the captain s cabin some time before 1969. Otherwise, the windows on the GTW boats were the
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
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              Good Morning,
              The Grand Rapids also received port holes in  the captain's cabin some time before 1969. Otherwise, the windows on the GTW boats were the generally the same. They didn't spend to change things without a complelling reason. Which on GTW usually meant it wore out, rusted out, reduced cost, increased revenue, or was required by regulation. Bernard, correct me if I am wrong, I am guessing your photos of the interior of Viking are farly recent. Those areas shown look good for a ship that has been out of service so long. In all the sales and moves since she left  the railroad, was there any maintenance done to the interior?
               
              Jerry  

              --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@...> wrote:

              From: Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@...>
              Subject: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking
              To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 12:58 PM






              Hi Folks,

              I can't find any more information about the change from wooden to
              metal windows on the boats -- I guess that e-mail message was lost
              when my hard disc crashed! Does anyone else know more about when and
              where the Ann Arbor 7 window conversion was begun?

              I posted some pictures in the Photos section, in an album called
              "Bernard Haxel's Photos":

              The first picture shows some of the nicely-restored wooden windows in
              the captain's and passenger cabins on the City of Milwaukee, which
              are the same as those on AA7. Second is a view of the front of the
              Viking, showing round windows in the same cabins. Next are a couple
              of views of the round windows on the Viking from the interior. They
              just welded a plate with a round hole in it into each rectangular
              window opening. The portholes look pretty good in the mess, where
              they paneled around them. Notice the electric heater under each
              window -- everything steam-powered was elliminated in the conversion,
              including the radiators. The next picture shows the welded-in plates
              from the outside. All the original stuff was riveted together and
              the conversion work was welded, so it's pretty obvious.

              There are also some pictures to address the question of the
              heightening of the Viking. I've heard that she was made 4 feet
              taller, and these pictures bear that out. The new section was added
              just above the level of the car deck. The first picture shows this
              from the outside where the welding makes the new plates obvious.
              (Compare the welded middle seam in this view to the riveted upper
              one.) In the second picture, at the bow the draft marks make 4 feet
              seem about right. Finally, inside on the car deck, the added parts
              of the ribs are the welded sloping sections just above the deck.

              - Bernard



















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bernard Haxel
              Jerry, The interior pictures and the exterior picture of the windows were taken in October 2003 at Menominee, when K&K graciously allowed me to spend a morning
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
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                Jerry,

                The interior pictures and the exterior picture of the windows were
                taken in October 2003 at Menominee, when K&K graciously allowed me to
                spend a morning aboard the Viking (accompanied by one of their folks).

                There was some peeling paint and rust in the car deck. Unless they
                have been painting her, I'm sure there's a lot of rust everywhere by
                now. The cabins looked pretty clean -- it looked like the crew had
                just left. In the engine room, it looked like they would come back
                in a minute and get her going! The K&K guy said that everything had
                been maintained and was ready to run again. The passenger cabin had
                a kind of torn-up look, as tho some renovation work was in process --
                maybe interrupted when the boat was sneaked away from Port Stanley?

                The exterior hull photos were taken at Erie in 1999.

                - Bernard



                --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Klopfer <gtcn@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good Morning,
                > The Grand Rapids also received port holes in  the captain's cabin
                some time before 1969. Otherwise, the windows on the GTW boats were
                the generally the same. They didn't spend to change things without a
                complelling reason. Which on GTW usually meant it wore out, rusted
                out, reduced cost, increased revenue, or was required by
                regulation. Bernard, correct me if I am wrong, I am guessing your
                photos of the interior of Viking are farly recent. Those areas shown
                look good for a ship that has been out of service so long. In all
                the sales and moves since she left  the railroad, was there any
                maintenance done to the interior?
                >  
                > Jerry  
                >
                > --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@...>
                > Subject: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking
                > To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 12:58 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Folks,
                >
                > I can't find any more information about the change from wooden to
                > metal windows on the boats -- I guess that e-mail message was lost
                > when my hard disc crashed! Does anyone else know more about when
                and
                > where the Ann Arbor 7 window conversion was begun?
                >
                > I posted some pictures in the Photos section, in an album called
                > "Bernard Haxel's Photos":
                >
                > The first picture shows some of the nicely-restored wooden windows
                in
                > the captain's and passenger cabins on the City of Milwaukee, which
                > are the same as those on AA7. Second is a view of the front of the
                > Viking, showing round windows in the same cabins. Next are a couple
                > of views of the round windows on the Viking from the interior. They
                > just welded a plate with a round hole in it into each rectangular
                > window opening. The portholes look pretty good in the mess, where
                > they paneled around them. Notice the electric heater under each
                > window -- everything steam-powered was elliminated in the
                conversion,
                > including the radiators. The next picture shows the welded-in
                plates
                > from the outside. All the original stuff was riveted together and
                > the conversion work was welded, so it's pretty obvious.
                >
                > There are also some pictures to address the question of the
                > heightening of the Viking. I've heard that she was made 4 feet
                > taller, and these pictures bear that out. The new section was added
                > just above the level of the car deck. The first picture shows this
                > from the outside where the welding makes the new plates obvious.
                > (Compare the welded middle seam in this view to the riveted upper
                > one.) In the second picture, at the bow the draft marks make 4 feet
                > seem about right. Finally, inside on the car deck, the added parts
                > of the ribs are the welded sloping sections just above the deck.
                >
                > - Bernard
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • pepsi24tony5
                Hello Group, I agree with Bernard. In 2006 when I toured the Viking, it looked in real good condition. Like he said, peeling paint, bird dropping s & nest s
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 19, 2009
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                  Hello Group,
                  I agree with Bernard. In 2006 when I toured the Viking, it
                  looked in real good condition. Like he said, peeling paint, bird
                  dropping's & nest's every where. But ready to go. Nothing was done
                  to it that David Breeze, the security gaurd, knew about, other then
                  the life boats missing, & tracks gone. No lights below deck, but the
                  flash from the camera shows the engines, clean & ready to fire up.
                  Interior wise, the kitchen, mess hall, dining room, passenger
                  sitting area, was all clean. Dishes still stacked in the cabinets.
                  Except for the Atkinson Life Jackets piled up on the floor.
                  Bob Kalal



                  -- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "Bernard Haxel" <bfh4n@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jerry,
                  >
                  > The interior pictures and the exterior picture of the windows were
                  > taken in October 2003 at Menominee, when K&K graciously allowed me
                  to
                  > spend a morning aboard the Viking (accompanied by one of their
                  folks).
                  >
                  > There was some peeling paint and rust in the car deck. Unless
                  they
                  > have been painting her, I'm sure there's a lot of rust everywhere
                  by
                  > now. The cabins looked pretty clean -- it looked like the crew
                  had
                  > just left. In the engine room, it looked like they would come
                  back
                  > in a minute and get her going! The K&K guy said that everything
                  had
                  > been maintained and was ready to run again. The passenger cabin
                  had
                  > a kind of torn-up look, as tho some renovation work was in
                  process --
                  > maybe interrupted when the boat was sneaked away from Port Stanley?
                  >
                  > The exterior hull photos were taken at Erie in 1999.
                  >
                  > - Bernard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Klopfer <gtcn@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good Morning,
                  > > The Grand Rapids also received port holes in  the captain's
                  cabin
                  > some time before 1969. Otherwise, the windows on the GTW boats
                  were
                  > the generally the same. They didn't spend to change things without
                  a
                  > complelling reason. Which on GTW usually meant it wore out, rusted
                  > out, reduced cost, increased revenue, or was required by
                  > regulation. Bernard, correct me if I am wrong, I am guessing your
                  > photos of the interior of Viking are farly recent. Those areas
                  shown
                  > look good for a ship that has been out of service so long. In all
                  > the sales and moves since she left  the railroad, was there any
                  > maintenance done to the interior?
                  > >  
                  > > Jerry  
                  > >
                  > > --- On Wed, 2/18/09, Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > From: Bernard Haxel <bfh4n@>
                  > > Subject: [carferry] Re: Ann Arbor 7/Viking
                  > > To: carferry@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 12:58 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Folks,
                  > >
                  > > I can't find any more information about the change from wooden
                  to
                  > > metal windows on the boats -- I guess that e-mail message was
                  lost
                  > > when my hard disc crashed! Does anyone else know more about when
                  > and
                  > > where the Ann Arbor 7 window conversion was begun?
                  > >
                  > > I posted some pictures in the Photos section, in an album called
                  > > "Bernard Haxel's Photos":
                  > >
                  > > The first picture shows some of the nicely-restored wooden
                  windows
                  > in
                  > > the captain's and passenger cabins on the City of Milwaukee,
                  which
                  > > are the same as those on AA7. Second is a view of the front of
                  the
                  > > Viking, showing round windows in the same cabins. Next are a
                  couple
                  > > of views of the round windows on the Viking from the interior.
                  They
                  > > just welded a plate with a round hole in it into each
                  rectangular
                  > > window opening. The portholes look pretty good in the mess,
                  where
                  > > they paneled around them. Notice the electric heater under each
                  > > window -- everything steam-powered was elliminated in the
                  > conversion,
                  > > including the radiators. The next picture shows the welded-in
                  > plates
                  > > from the outside. All the original stuff was riveted together
                  and
                  > > the conversion work was welded, so it's pretty obvious.
                  > >
                  > > There are also some pictures to address the question of the
                  > > heightening of the Viking. I've heard that she was made 4 feet
                  > > taller, and these pictures bear that out. The new section was
                  added
                  > > just above the level of the car deck. The first picture shows
                  this
                  > > from the outside where the welding makes the new plates obvious.
                  > > (Compare the welded middle seam in this view to the riveted
                  upper
                  > > one.) In the second picture, at the bow the draft marks make 4
                  feet
                  > > seem about right. Finally, inside on the car deck, the added
                  parts
                  > > of the ribs are the welded sloping sections just above the deck.
                  > >
                  > > - Bernard
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • pepsi24tony5
                  Hello Group, I just uploaded 3 photos under Ann Arbor #7 & Viking . The 1st shows the AA 7 with square windows, the 2nd shows the AA 7 with port holes under
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 20, 2009
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                    Hello Group,
                    I just uploaded 3 photos under "Ann Arbor #7 & Viking". The 1st
                    shows the AA 7 with square windows, the 2nd shows the AA 7 with port
                    holes under the pilot house & square windows down the side, the 3rd
                    shows the Viking with port holes all around. Thanks for all the post
                    help & coversations, very interesting as always.
                    Bob Kalal


                    --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "pepsi24tony5" <k.kalal@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Group,
                    > When the #7 was launched, she had square windows under the pilot
                    > house. Before she went in for a refit to become the Viking, as when
                    > she was going thru the locks, she had port holes under the pilot
                    > house. When did that change happen??? thanks. Bob K.
                    >
                  • Bernard Haxel
                    Hi Everyone, I noticed something else of interest in Bob s photos of Ann Arbor 7 and Viking, besides the windows. In the second photo (AA 7 with round windows
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 25, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Everyone,

                      I noticed something else of interest in Bob's photos of Ann Arbor 7
                      and Viking, besides the windows. In the second photo (AA 7 with
                      round windows at the front) on the boat deck, the cabin behind the
                      captain's cabin and ahead of the stacks has been lengthened. Compare
                      the first photo to the the second.

                      Does anyone know when that was done and why? And, what is in the
                      enlarged cabin?

                      - Bernard Haxel

                      --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "pepsi24tony5" <k.kalal@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Group,
                      > I just uploaded 3 photos under "Ann Arbor #7 & Viking". The 1st
                      > shows the AA 7 with square windows, the 2nd shows the AA 7 with
                      port
                      > holes under the pilot house & square windows down the side, the 3rd
                      > shows the Viking with port holes all around. Thanks for all the
                      post
                      > help & coversations, very interesting as always.
                      > Bob Kalal
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In carferry@yahoogroups.com, "pepsi24tony5" <k.kalal@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Group,
                      > > When the #7 was launched, she had square windows under the
                      pilot
                      > > house. Before she went in for a refit to become the Viking, as
                      when
                      > > she was going thru the locks, she had port holes under the pilot
                      > > house. When did that change happen??? thanks. Bob K.
                      > >
                      >
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