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Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

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  • Bob White
    Wow. Too much Engineer talk for this poor simple-minded dirt farmer from Oklahoma to comprehend! Ha. Thanks again, Leighton. Your descriptive prowess on the
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 3, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Wow.  Too much Engineer talk for this poor simple-minded dirt farmer from Oklahoma to comprehend!  Ha. 
       
      Thanks again, Leighton.  Your descriptive prowess on the boat still amazes me.
       
      I will certainly save this email for its information.
       
      Bob White
      Tulsa
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:43 PM
      Subject: RE: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

       

      The mast specs are 6 inches of rake and 3 inches of prebend.  Rake is the tilt of the masthead aft of vertical and is essential to proper functioning of the sail at speed.  Prebend is the bend of the mast induced by the pre-stress of the shrouds.  This can be measured by using a 3 inch radius donut on a halyard ½ the mast length.  Tighten the shrouds until the pre-bend is reached (The donut just touches the mast). Without the prebend the main will “bag” and not shape well. 

      Backstay tension will increase the pre-bend and flatten the sail if you have an adjustable backstay.  It probably is not worth it on the 26, but a thought.  I tried it and found the benefit was outweighed by the effort of maintenance and another thing to worry about.

      Good sailmakers (North etc.) have the specs for the sails.  It is up to the owner to tune the rig properly.  You will definitely need the shim kit to gain the prebend.  This involves un-stepping the mast and reseating the shim under the step.  Watch water leakage and use plenty of sealant at the revised mast step as the water will go right down the mast to the inner tube and into the bilge.

      Use tension only tight enough to prevent loose shrouds on a close-hauled tack with 15 degree heel.  Do not overtighten the shrouds.  You only have 3/16 stays.  It is easy to overstress the shrouds and risk breaking them.

      The increased differential tension in the shrouds on a 15 degree heel will be the same no matter what the pre-stress is.  Thus use the least amount of pre-stress needed to prevent the loose leeward shrouds.

      Another problem is in heavy weather the 26 mast tends to “pump” which is a good way to break the mast, usually at the spreaders or lower shrouds.  Less pre-stress helps to avoid the “pumping” of the mast by reducing the stored energy in the mast.

      “Rompidas” Sail No. USA-5

      Signature-LDW

      Leighton Danis Westlake, Jr., PE, PLS

      Managing Partner

      a division of DANIS LOGO

      10175 Flag Dr, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410-4775

      Tel:  561-799-5280

      Fax: 561-799-5776

      Cell: 561-222-0714

      email: leighton@thedanisgr oup.com

      Privilaged Correspondence

      This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the named recipient(s) and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s) , you may not retain copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose or disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. Any such dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail or its attachments is strictly prohibited. Please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachment from your computer.

      From: capri26@yahoogroups .com [mailto:capri26@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Bob White
      Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:06 PM
      To: capri26@yahoogroups .com
      Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

       

      All I know is that when I eye-ball up the mast, I see it bending aft at the spreaders.  All from the back stay tension which still seems loose to me.  Before, it was straight up and down.  Before, I had a lot of weather helm.  Now, I do not.

      But, I never did take advantage of that free part from the factory.  I hope its not too late.  I don't plan on installing that part unless I have to take the mast down.  But, it would be nice to have in case I ever sold the boat.

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:00 PM

      Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

       

      First, I think that Catalina screwed up when they routed the furling line they way they did.  I have a buddy who has a Catalina 28 and his is routed the same ridiculous way.  Jim Long, see below, and many other have re-routed the furling line to the stanchions and that made a huge difference.  I had them that way on my first Capri and it worked flawless and easy with the ball bearing upgrade. I had a 155% North Genoa with a rope luff that kept the shape pretty well when reefed/furled. 

      My current Capri came with 7 head sails, but I generally keep just the 110%, 155%, and a cruising spinnaker on board.  When the wind is light, we use the 155%, when it is heavy, the 110%.  At our lake it is either blowing like crazy or it is very light, very little in between.  I have never used the 135% that I got with the boat and maybe I should just to see how she performs?

      Most sail manufacturers will ask you, how much prebend you have so they can build it into the sail.

      I probably need to get the shim from Catalina as I cannot get my rig tight?  The prebend that I do have is mainly from the upper shrouds and a little from the back stay, but the backstay is as tight as possible, but still not tight.  I do not have weather helm issues, so maybe I have it set right?????

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Bob Unkel

      Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:33 PM

      Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

       

      Mast bend helps, but the way to get rid of the weather helm that rounds us up is to rake the mast forward. You want to move more of the Center Of Effort (COE which is the center of the sail plan area) Forward towards the Center Of Resistance (COR which is basically the center of the keel area. Mast bend normally reduces the draft in the upper area of the sail to optimize performance.  You can use the Vang to control twist which can reduce heeling.

      I think we have had a rousing discussion on this issue in the past.

      Bob

      On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Bob White wrote:



       

      All this talk about higher winds and the foresails made me think about the mast that is supposed to be bent to aft.  I am not really sure why they call it a pre-bend when it is like that all the time.

      But, I found that my boat always rounded up until I had some post-OKC tornado work done on my boat and the guy set the mast and tensioned the backstay with enough to cause the bend.  It bends aft beginning at the spreaders.  Noticeable difference. 

      Has anyone else found this out?

      Bob White,

      #157, Tulsa

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:42 AM

      Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

       

      We had a 150 that blew out. Got a 135 from Ullman. Really nice sail. Our air tends to be 5-25 and we found the boat likes the 135, as in, a couple fingers on the tiller.

      Mary and Jeff

      On Feb 3, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Stephen M. Hollingsworth wrote:



      Ok Guys, I’m about to pull the trigger on a new North headsail (roller furler) and based on some responses from the group back in Sept, I was sold on a 150 but now I’m reading that a 135 might be the right size for our rigs.  All opinions are welcomed!!!! !

      fyi, like any Midwest lake, average winds cover the entire range from 0 to 20.

      Stephen

      From: capri26@yahoogroups .com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of cavelamb
      Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:56 PM
      To: capri26@yahoogroups .com
      Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

      Hi Uncle Bob!

      I have an asym spinnaker for down wind and reaching in light air..

      I've flown it solo.  It's a hand full getting it set, but then it settles down.
      While we are not actually really racing, it's WAY fun to pass the other boats!

      For reaching, and especially for beating, about 135 is as large as I'd go for a fore sail.
      Aerodynamics being what they are, at some point the trade off between jib shape and
      backwinded main are going to be less than optimal.

      I'm not so sure I could actually change head sails on the foil while under weigh.
      That's an interesting job even at the dock with someone helping.
      Under weigh - and solo???
      I think I'd need to be a lot better sailor first.

      But!
       I hear you re: folding and putting them away.
      Thanks for bringing that up.  It's something to consider...

      I took the Genoa down Monday to do some stitching.
      (It really needs to be replaced, but it's going to have to wait another season)

      That thing really is a whole fore deck full of sail!


      So, yet another question...

      Does anybody here have a CDI furler with the ball bearings?
      Are they worth the bucks?


      Richard



      Bob Unkel wrote:

      Richard,

       A lot depends on what type of sailing you do. If it is racing, then go for the hanked on headsails. If not my vote would be to keep the furler. Some things to consider if you switch back to hanked on sails. First you now have to find a place to store them, second it will take you more effort to get underway and to put it all away.  There is no doubt that you can get better sail shape with hanked on sails compared to ones on a furler.  Depending on the furler, you can  reduce sail with the various sails in your inventory. We still bend our sails on every time we go sailing, as I am now getting older it is more a pain in the butt to dig out the sails and get ready to get underway then have to go through proper folding them to put them away when we come back in.  Finally, I would think about limiting yourself to only a 135 genoa,  I think the bigger the better in light air.

      Just one old geezers opinion,

      Bob Unkel

      On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, the saber Tooth Cave lamb wrote:




      I'm just about to bite the bullet and pull the CDI roller 
      off of my boat and go back to hank on sails.

      Discussing that idea with a neighbor on my pier (he has a V&C 27)
      we just about came to an agreement for a trade.

      His 3 hank on head sails (storm jib, working blade, and 135 Genoa) for 
      my furler and Genoa.

      But I'm wondering if I should do that to a friend?
      Total stranger, maybe. 
      But a friend and neighbor?

      Richard

      --

       
      Richard Lamb
      http://www.home. earthlink. net/~cavelamb/
       
       
      "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
      to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
      Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
      Place no faith in time.  For the clock may soon be still."
       
       
       

    • Colin Edgerton
      Hello All, I am a recent member (having recently acquired a Capri 26, hull #95) and I am thoroughly enjoying these posts. I love the boat-- bought her in
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello All,
         
        I am a recent member (having recently acquired a Capri 26, hull #95) and I am thoroughly enjoying these posts.
         
        I love the boat-- bought her in beautiful condition (needed new headsail and went with Doyle 145%) and have enjoyed a few day-sails.  I have lots and lots of questions, but am focusing on the proper tuning of my rig at the moment. I am not particularly handy on a big boat (having graduated from dingies) but I have experienced maintenance help available and am a fast learner.
         
        I see mention of a mast shim kit in these posts, and it looks essential. How do I know if one is installed on my boat?  Is it obvious? Anyone have a picture?
         
        Thanks!
         
        Colin
        Augusta, GA (Clarks Hill Lake)
        "Resolved" #95
         

        To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
        From: Capri26@...
        Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:37:16 -0600
        Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

         
        Wow.  Too much Engineer talk for this poor simple-minded dirt farmer from Oklahoma to comprehend!  Ha. 
         
        Thanks again, Leighton.  Your descriptive prowess on the boat still amazes me.
         
        I will certainly save this email for its information.
         
        Bob White
        Tulsa
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:43 PM
        Subject: RE: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

         


        The mast specs are 6 inches of rake and 3 inches of prebend.  Rake is the tilt of the masthead aft of vertical and is essential to proper functioning of the sail at speed.  Prebend is the bend of the mast induced by the pre-stress of the shrouds.  This can be measured by using a 3 inch radius donut on a halyard ½ the mast length.  Tighten the shrouds until the pre-bend is reached (The donut just touches the mast). Without the prebend the main will “bag” and not shape well. 

        Backstay tension will increase the pre-bend and flatten the sail if you have an adjustable backstay.  It probably is not worth it on the 26, but a thought.  I tried it and found the benefit was outweighed by the effort of maintenance and another thing to worry about.

        Good sailmakers (North etc.) have the specs for the sails.  It is up to the owner to tune the rig properly.  You will definitely need the shim kit to gain the prebend.  This involves un-stepping the mast and reseating the shim under the step.  Watch water leakage and use plenty of sealant at the revised mast step as the water will go right down the mast to the inner tube and into the bilge.

        Use tension only tight enough to prevent loose shrouds on a close-hauled tack with 15 degree heel.  Do not overtighten the shrouds.  You only have 3/16 stays.  It is easy to overstress the shrouds and risk breaking them.

        The increased differential tension in the shrouds on a 15 degree heel will be the same no matter what the pre-stress is.  Thus use the least amount of pre-stress needed to prevent the loose leeward shrouds.

        Another problem is in heavy weather the 26 mast tends to “pump” which is a good way to break the mast, usually at the spreaders or lower shrouds.  Less pre-stress helps to avoid the “pumping” of the mast by reducing the stored energy in the mast.

        “Rompidas” Sail No. USA-5

        Signature-LDW

        Leighton Danis Westlake, Jr., PE, PLS

        Managing Partner

        a division of DANIS LOGO

        10175 Flag Dr, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410-4775

        Tel:  561-799-5280

        Fax: 561-799-5776

        Cell: 561-222-0714

        email: leighton@thedanisgr oup.com

        Privilaged Correspondence

        This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the named recipient(s) and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s) , you may not retain copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose or disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. Any such dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail or its attachments is strictly prohibited. Please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachment from your computer.

        From: capri26@yahoogroups .com [mailto:capri26@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Bob White
        Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:06 PM
        To: capri26@yahoogroups .com
        Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

         

        All I know is that when I eye-ball up the mast, I see it bending aft at the spreaders.  All from the back stay tension which still seems loose to me.  Before, it was straight up and down.  Before, I had a lot of weather helm.  Now, I do not.

        But, I never did take advantage of that free part from the factory.  I hope its not too late.  I don't plan on installing that part unless I have to take the mast down.  But, it would be nice to have in case I ever sold the boat.

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:00 PM

        Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

         

        First, I think that Catalina screwed up when they routed the furling line they way they did.  I have a buddy who has a Catalina 28 and his is routed the same ridiculous way.  Jim Long, see below, and many other have re-routed the furling line to the stanchions and that made a huge difference.  I had them that way on my first Capri and it worked flawless and easy with the ball bearing upgrade. I had a 155% North Genoa with a rope luff that kept the shape pretty well when reefed/furled. 

        My current Capri came with 7 head sails, but I generally keep just the 110%, 155%, and a cruising spinnaker on board.  When the wind is light, we use the 155%, when it is heavy, the 110%.  At our lake it is either blowing like crazy or it is very light, very little in between.  I have never used the 135% that I got with the boat and maybe I should just to see how she performs?

        Most sail manufacturers will ask you, how much prebend you have so they can build it into the sail.

        I probably need to get the shim from Catalina as I cannot get my rig tight?  The prebend that I do have is mainly from the upper shrouds and a little from the back stay, but the backstay is as tight as possible, but still not tight.  I do not have weather helm issues, so maybe I have it set right?????

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Bob Unkel

        Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:33 PM

        Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

         

        Mast bend helps, but the way to get rid of the weather helm that rounds us up is to rake the mast forward. You want to move more of the Center Of Effort (COE which is the center of the sail plan area) Forward towards the Center Of Resistance (COR which is basically the center of the keel area. Mast bend normally reduces the draft in the upper area of the sail to optimize performance.  You can use the Vang to control twist which can reduce heeling.

        I think we have had a rousing discussion on this issue in the past.

        Bob

        On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Bob White wrote:



         

        All this talk about higher winds and the foresails made me think about the mast that is supposed to be bent to aft.  I am not really sure why they call it a pre-bend when it is like that all the time.

        But, I found that my boat always rounded up until I had some post-OKC tornado work done on my boat and the guy set the mast and tensioned the backstay with enough to cause the bend.  It bends aft beginning at the spreaders.  Noticeable difference. 

        Has anyone else found this out?

        Bob White,

        #157, Tulsa

        ----- Original Message -----

        Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:42 AM

        Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

         

        We had a 150 that blew out. Got a 135 from Ullman. Really nice sail. Our air tends to be 5-25 and we found the boat likes the 135, as in, a couple fingers on the tiller.

        Mary and Jeff

        On Feb 3, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Stephen M. Hollingsworth wrote:



        Ok Guys, I’m about to pull the trigger on a new North headsail (roller furler) and based on some responses from the group back in Sept, I was sold on a 150 but now I’m reading that a 135 might be the right size for our rigs.  All opinions are welcomed!!!! !

        fyi, like any Midwest lake, average winds cover the entire range from 0 to 20.

        Stephen

        From: capri26@yahoogroups .com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of cavelamb
        Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:56 PM
        To: capri26@yahoogroups .com
        Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

        Hi Uncle Bob!

        I have an asym spinnaker for down wind and reaching in light air..

        I've flown it solo.  It's a hand full getting it set, but then it settles down.
        While we are not actually really racing, it's WAY fun to pass the other boats!

        For reaching, and especially for beating, about 135 is as large as I'd go for a fore sail.
        Aerodynamics being what they are, at some point the trade off between jib shape and
        backwinded main are going to be less than optimal.

        I'm not so sure I could actually change head sails on the foil while under weigh.
        That's an interesting job even at the dock with someone helping.
        Under weigh - and solo???
        I think I'd need to be a lot better sailor first.

        But!
         I hear you re: folding and putting them away.
        Thanks for bringing that up.  It's something to consider...

        I took the Genoa down Monday to do some stitching.
        (It really needs to be replaced, but it's going to have to wait another season)

        That thing really is a whole fore deck full of sail!


        So, yet another question...

        Does anybody here have a CDI furler with the ball bearings?
        Are they worth the bucks?


        Richard



        Bob Unkel wrote:

        Richard,

         A lot depends on what type of sailing you do. If it is racing, then go for the hanked on headsails. If not my vote would be to keep the furler. Some things to consider if you switch back to hanked on sails. First you now have to find a place to store them, second it will take you more effort to get underway and to put it all away.  There is no doubt that you can get better sail shape with hanked on sails compared to ones on a furler.  Depending on the furler, you can  reduce sail with the various sails in your inventory. We still bend our sails on every time we go sailing, as I am now getting older it is more a pain in the butt to dig out the sails and get ready to get underway then have to go through proper folding them to put them away when we come back in.  Finally, I would think about limiting yourself to only a 135 genoa,  I think the bigger the better in light air.

        Just one old geezers opinion,

        Bob Unkel

        On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, the saber Tooth Cave lamb wrote:




        I'm just about to bite the bullet and pull the CDI roller 
        off of my boat and go back to hank on sails.

        Discussing that idea with a neighbor on my pier (he has a V&C 27)
        we just about came to an agreement for a trade.

        His 3 hank on head sails (storm jib, working blade, and 135 Genoa) for 
        my furler and Genoa.

        But I'm wondering if I should do that to a friend?
        Total stranger, maybe. 
        But a friend and neighbor?

        Richard

        --

         
        Richard Lamb
        http://www.home. earthlink. net/~cavelamb/
         
         
        "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
        to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
        Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
        Place no faith in time.  For the clock may soon be still."
         
         
         





        Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
      • Stephen M. Hollingsworth
        Colin If you feel that you need a shim kit. Contact dani@catalinayachts.com with your hull number and shipping address. Catalina will be happy to ship you one
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
        • 0 Attachment

          Colin

           

          If you feel that you need a shim kit. Contact dani@... with your hull number and shipping address. Catalina will be happy to ship you one at no cost.

           

          Welcome Aboard.

          Steve

           

           

          From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Colin Edgerton
          Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:39 PM
          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

           

          Hello All,
           
          I am a recent member (having recently acquired a Capri 26, hull #95) and I am thoroughly enjoying these posts.
           
          I love the boat-- bought her in beautiful condition (needed new headsail and went with Doyle 145%) and have enjoyed a few day-sails.  I have lots and lots of questions, but am focusing on the proper tuning of my rig at the moment. I am not particularly handy on a big boat (having graduated from dingies) but I have experienced maintenance help available and am a fast learner.
           
          I see mention of a mast shim kit in these posts, and it looks essential. How do I know if one is installed on my boat?  Is it obvious? Anyone have a picture?
           
          Thanks!
           
          Colin
          Augusta, GA (Clarks Hill Lake)
          "Resolved" #95
           


          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
          From: Capri26@...
          Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:37:16 -0600
          Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

          Wow.  Too much Engineer talk for this poor simple-minded dirt farmer from Oklahoma to comprehend!  Ha. 

           

          Thanks again, Leighton.  Your descriptive prowess on the boat still amazes me.

           

          I will certainly save this email for its information.

           

          Bob White

          Tulsa

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Leighton D. westlake, Jr., PE, PLS

          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 7:43 PM

          Subject: RE: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

           

           

          The mast specs are 6 inches of rake and 3 inches of prebend.  Rake is the tilt of the masthead aft of vertical and is essential to proper functioning of the sail at speed.  Prebend is the bend of the mast induced by the pre-stress of the shrouds.  This can be measured by using a 3 inch radius donut on a halyard ½ the mast length.  Tighten the shrouds until the pre-bend is reached (The donut just touches the mast). Without the prebend the main will “bag” and not shape well. 

          Backstay tension will increase the pre-bend and flatten the sail if you have an adjustable backstay.  It probably is not worth it on the 26, but a thought.  I tried it and found the benefit was outweighed by the effort of maintenance and another thing to worry about.

          Good sailmakers (North etc.) have the specs for the sails.  It is up to the owner to tune the rig properly.  You will definitely need the shim kit to gain the prebend.  This involves un-stepping the mast and reseating the shim under the step.  Watch water leakage and use plenty of sealant at the revised mast step as the water will go right down the mast to the inner tube and into the bilge.

          Use tension only tight enough to prevent loose shrouds on a close-hauled tack with 15 degree heel.  Do not overtighten the shrouds.  You only have 3/16 stays.  It is easy to overstress the shrouds and risk breaking them.

          The increased differential tension in the shrouds on a 15 degree heel will be the same no matter what the pre-stress is.  Thus use the least amount of pre-stress needed to prevent the loose leeward shrouds.

          Another problem is in heavy weather the 26 mast tends to “pump” which is a good way to break the mast, usually at the spreaders or lower shrouds.  Less pre-stress helps to avoid the “pumping” of the mast by reducing the stored energy in the mast.

          “Rompidas” Sail No. USA-5

          Image removed by sender. Signature-LDW

          Leighton Danis Westlake, Jr., PE, PLS

          Managing Partner

          Image removed by sender.a division of Image removed by sender. DANIS LOGO

          10175 Flag Dr, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410-4775

          Tel:  561-799-5280

          Fax: 561-799-5776

          Cell: 561-222-0714

          email: leighton@...

          Privilaged Correspondence

          This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for the named recipient(s) and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential, or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), you may not retain copy or use this e-mail or any attachment for any purpose or disclose all or any part of the contents to any other person. Any such dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail or its attachments is strictly prohibited. Please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachment from your computer.

          From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob White
          Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:06 PM
          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

          All I know is that when I eye-ball up the mast, I see it bending aft at the spreaders.  All from the back stay tension which still seems loose to me.  Before, it was straight up and down.  Before, I had a lot of weather helm.  Now, I do not.

          But, I never did take advantage of that free part from the factory.  I hope its not too late.  I don't plan on installing that part unless I have to take the mast down.  But, it would be nice to have in case I ever sold the boat.

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Bruce Spletstoser

          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:00 PM

          Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

          First, I think that Catalina screwed up when they routed the furling line they way they did.  I have a buddy who has a Catalina 28 and his is routed the same ridiculous way.  Jim Long, see below, and many other have re-routed the furling line to the stanchions and that made a huge difference.  I had them that way on my first Capri and it worked flawless and easy with the ball bearing upgrade. I had a 155% North Genoa with a rope luff that kept the shape pretty well when reefed/furled. 

          My current Capri came with 7 head sails, but I generally keep just the 110%, 155%, and a cruising spinnaker on board.  When the wind is light, we use the 155%, when it is heavy, the 110%.  At our lake it is either blowing like crazy or it is very light, very little in between.  I have never used the 135% that I got with the boat and maybe I should just to see how she performs?

          Most sail manufacturers will ask you, how much prebend you have so they can build it into the sail.

          I probably need to get the shim from Catalina as I cannot get my rig tight?  The prebend that I do have is mainly from the upper shrouds and a little from the back stay, but the backstay is as tight as possible, but still not tight.  I do not have weather helm issues, so maybe I have it set right?????

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Bob Unkel

          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 12:33 PM

          Subject: Re: [capri26] sail talk and wind---what about pre-bned

           

          Mast bend helps, but the way to get rid of the weather helm that rounds us up is to rake the mast forward. You want to move more of the Center Of Effort (COE which is the center of the sail plan area) Forward towards the Center Of Resistance (COR which is basically the center of the keel area. Mast bend normally reduces the draft in the upper area of the sail to optimize performance.  You can use the Vang to control twist which can reduce heeling.

          I think we have had a rousing discussion on this issue in the past.

          Bob

          On Feb 3, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Bob White wrote:

           

           

          All this talk about higher winds and the foresails made me think about the mast that is supposed to be bent to aft.  I am not really sure why they call it a pre-bend when it is like that all the time.

          But, I found that my boat always rounded up until I had some post-OKC tornado work done on my boat and the guy set the mast and tensioned the backstay with enough to cause the bend.  It bends aft beginning at the spreaders.  Noticeable difference. 

          Has anyone else found this out?

          Bob White,

          #157, Tulsa

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Mary Kinnunen and Jeff Eaton

          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 8:42 AM

          Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

           

          We had a 150 that blew out. Got a 135 from Ullman. Really nice sail. Our air tends to be 5-25 and we found the boat likes the 135, as in, a couple fingers on the tiller.

          Mary and Jeff

          On Feb 3, 2010, at 8:24 AM, Stephen M. Hollingsworth wrote:

           

          Ok Guys, I’m about to pull the trigger on a new North headsail (roller furler) and based on some responses from the group back in Sept, I was sold on a 150 but now I’m reading that a 135 might be the right size for our rigs.  All opinions are welcomed!!!!!

          fyi, like any Midwest lake, average winds cover the entire range from 0 to 20.

          Stephen

          From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cavelamb
          Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:56 PM
          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [capri26] Head sails - again?

          Hi Uncle Bob!

          I have an asym spinnaker for down wind and reaching in light air..

          I've flown it solo.  It's a hand full getting it set, but then it settles down.
          While we are not actually really racing, it's WAY fun to pass the other boats!

          For reaching, and especially for beating, about 135 is as large as I'd go for a fore sail.
          Aerodynamics being what they are, at some point the trade off between jib shape and
          backwinded main are going to be less than optimal.

          I'm not so sure I could actually change head sails on the foil while under weigh.
          That's an interesting job even at the dock with someone helping.
          Under weigh - and solo???
          I think I'd need to be a lot better sailor first.

          But!
           I hear you re: folding and putting them away.
          Thanks for bringing that up.  It's something to consider...

          I took the Genoa down Monday to do some stitching.
          (It really needs to be replaced, but it's going to have to wait another season)

          That thing really is a whole fore deck full of sail!


          So, yet another question...

          Does anybody here have a CDI furler with the ball bearings?
          Are they worth the bucks?


          Richard



          Bob Unkel wrote:

          Richard,

           A lot depends on what type of sailing you do. If it is racing, then go for the hanked on headsails. If not my vote would be to keep the furler. Some things to consider if you switch back to hanked on sails. First you now have to find a place to store them, second it will take you more effort to get underway and to put it all away.  There is no doubt that you can get better sail shape with hanked on sails compared to ones on a furler.  Depending on the furler, you can  reduce sail with the various sails in your inventory. We still bend our sails on every time we go sailing, as I am now getting older it is more a pain in the butt to dig out the sails and get ready to get underway then have to go through proper folding them to put them away when we come back in.  Finally, I would think about limiting yourself to only a 135 genoa,  I think the bigger the better in light air.

          Just one old geezers opinion,

          Bob Unkel

          On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:27 PM, the saber Tooth Cave lamb wrote:



          I'm just about to bite the bullet and pull the CDI roller 
          off of my boat and go back to hank on sails.

          Discussing that idea with a neighbor on my pier (he has a V&C 27)
          we just about came to an agreement for a trade.

          His 3 hank on head sails (storm jib, working blade, and 135 Genoa) for 
          my furler and Genoa.

          But I'm wondering if I should do that to a friend?
          Total stranger, maybe. 
          But a friend and neighbor?

          Richard

          --

           
          Richard Lamb
          http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/
           
           
          "The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
          to tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour...
          Now is the only time you own. Live, love, toil with a will.
          Place no faith in time.  For the clock may soon be still."
           
           
           

           

           

           


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