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How Much Play is too much play?

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  • Tom Black
    Hello All, While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct here. Is
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 8, 2007
      Hello All,

      While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
      front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
      here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

      Thanks,

      Tom
    • Bob Unkel
      ... Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play? On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, Tom Black wrote: Hello All, While preparing for bottom paint, I
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 9, 2007
        Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play? On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


         
         

        Hello All,

        While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
        front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
        here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

        Thanks,

        Tom
         Tom:
            Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
         There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a ‘washer/shim’ between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
            Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can ‘rock’ my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1”. The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren’t any ‘replaceable bearings’ in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
            As for a wheel steering, I haven’t had one apart so I can’t comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

        Regards,
        Bob Unkel
             
            

      • Leighton Westlake
        Check the bushings top and bottom. On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 12, 2007

          Check the bushings top and bottom.  On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.  If I had my choice I would have a bronze bushing made just because I do not trust plastic. It is easy enough to drop the rudder and inspect the bushings.

           

          Leighton D. Westlake , Jr.

          Vice-President and General Manager

          Team USA-5 division of

          The DANIS Group, llc

          10175 Flag Drive

          Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410-4775

          TEL: 561-799-5280

          FAX: 561-799-5776

          email: leighton @...


          From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto: capri26@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bob Unkel
          Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:30 PM
          To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?

           

          On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@gmail. com> wrote:


           
           

          Hello All,

          While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
          front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
          here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

          Thanks,

          Tom
           Tom:
              Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
           There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a ‘washer/shim’ between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
              Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can ‘rock’ my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1”. The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren’t any ‘replaceable bearings’ in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
              As for a wheel steering, I haven’t had one apart so I can’t comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

          Regards,
          Bob Unkel
               
              

           

        • Tom Black
          Thanks for the info Leighton. Unfortunately in my situation it is not a particularly easy job to drop the rudder. My boat has wheel steering and a diesel
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 12, 2007
            Thanks for the info Leighton. Unfortunately in my situation it is not a particularly easy job to drop the rudder. My boat has wheel steering and a diesel engine. This makes working behind the aft bulkhead a tough place to be. I think I would have to remove the steering quadrant and a couple of other things I cannot even see because of the fuel tank. This is why I was trying to gauge how much play is typical. It's potentially a bigger project than I want to tackle unless absolutely necessary.

            On 4/12/07, Leighton Westlake <leighton@...> wrote:

            Check the bushings top and bottom.  On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.  If I had my choice I would have a bronze bushing made just because I do not trust plastic. It is easy enough to drop the rudder and inspect the bushings.

             

            Leighton D. Westlake, Jr.

            Vice-President and General Manager

            Team USA-5 division of

            The DANIS Group, llc

            10175 Flag Drive

            Palm Beach Gardens , FL 33410-4775

            TEL: 561-799-5280

            FAX: 561-799-5776

            email: leighton @thedanisgroup.com


            From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unkel
            Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:30 PM
            To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?

             

            On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


             
             

            Hello All,

            While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
            front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
            here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

            Thanks,

            Tom
             Tom:
                Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
             There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a 'washer/shim' between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
                Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can 'rock' my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1". The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren't any 'replaceable bearings' in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
                As for a wheel steering, I haven't had one apart so I can't comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

            Regards,
            Bob Unkel
                 
                

             


          • Leighton Westlake
            Something to be said for tillers! Leighton D. Westlake, Jr. Vice-President and General Manager Team USA-5 division of The DANIS Group, llc 10175 Flag Drive
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 12, 2007

              Something to be said for tillers!

               

              Leighton D. Westlake , Jr.

              Vice-President and General Manager

              Team USA-5 division of

              The DANIS Group, llc

              10175 Flag Drive

              Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33410-4775

              TEL: 561-799-5280

              FAX: 561-799-5776

              email: leighton @...


              From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto: capri26@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tom Black
              Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:15 PM
              To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?

               

              Thanks for the info Leighton. Unfortunately in my situation it is not a particularly easy job to drop the rudder. My boat has wheel steering and a diesel engine. This makes working behind the aft bulkhead a tough place to be. I think I would have to remove the steering quadrant and a couple of other things I cannot even see because of the fuel tank. This is why I was trying to gauge how much play is typical. It's potentially a bigger project than I want to tackle unless absolutely necessary.

              On 4/12/07, Leighton Westlake <leighton@thedanisgr oup.com> wrote:

              Check the bushings top and bottom.  On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.  If I had my choice I would have a bronze bushing made just because I do not trust plastic. It is easy enough to drop the rudder and inspect the bushings.

               

              Leighton D. Westlake , Jr.

              Vice-President and General Manager

              Team USA-5 division of

              The DANIS Group, llc

              10175 Flag Drive

              Palm Beach Gardens , FL 33410-4775

              TEL: 561-799-5280

              FAX: 561-799-5776

              email: leighton @thedanisgroup. com


              From: capri26@yahoogroups .com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Bob Unkel
              Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:30 PM
              To: capri26@yahoogroups .com
              Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?

               

              On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@gmail. com> wrote:


               
               

              Hello All,

              While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
              front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
              here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

              Thanks,

              Tom
               Tom:
                  Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
               There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a 'washer/shim' between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
                  Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can 'rock' my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1". The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren't any 'replaceable bearings' in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
                  As for a wheel steering, I haven't had one apart so I can't comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

              Regards,
              Bob Unkel
                   
                  

               

               

            • Bob Unkel
              Tom: I am really curious, how much play do you have in your rudder? We have a tiller and Diesel and can get to the rudder post area behind the battery box. The
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 13, 2007
                Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play? Tom:
                    I am really curious, how much play do you have in your rudder? We have a tiller and Diesel and can get to the rudder post area behind the battery box. The wheel boat I have seen had an additional ‘cover’ dropping down about 2’ below the bottom of the cockpit sole and took up valuable vertical room from the aft berth. This may really make getting to the battery box and area behind a real chore. I take out the cushions when getting into this area just to provide a little more room.

                Bob Unkel


                On 4/12/07 2:15 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                 
                 

                Thanks for the info Leighton. Unfortunately in my situation it is not a particularly easy job to drop the rudder. My boat has wheel steering and a diesel engine. This makes working behind the aft bulkhead a tough place to be. I think I would have to remove the steering quadrant and a couple of other things I cannot even see because of the fuel tank. This is why I was trying to gauge how much play is typical. It's potentially a bigger project than I want to tackle unless absolutely necessary.

                On 4/12/07, Leighton Westlake <leighton@...> wrote:
                Check the bushings top and bottom.  On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.  If I had my choice I would have a bronze bushing made just because I do not trust plastic. It is easy enough to drop the rudder and inspect the bushings.



                Leighton D. Westlake, Jr.

                Vice-President and General Manager

                Team USA-5 division of

                The DANIS Group, llc

                10175 Flag Drive

                Palm Beach Gardens , FL 33410-4775

                TEL: 561-799-5280

                FAX: 561-799-5776

                email: leighton @... <http://thedanisgroup.com>


                From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unkel
                Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:30 PM
                To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?



                On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:



                 
                 

                Hello All,

                While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
                front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
                here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

                Thanks,

                Tom
                 Tom:
                    Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
                 There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a 'washer/shim' between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
                    Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can 'rock' my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1". The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren't any 'replaceable bearings' in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
                    As for a wheel steering, I haven't had one apart so I can't comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

                Regards,
                Bob Unkel
                     
                    



                 


                 
                    

              • Tom Black
                Hi Bob - Thanks for your interest. I will confirm the play with actual measurements this weekend and post it to you asap. You are right about the cover that
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 13, 2007
                  Hi Bob - Thanks for your interest. I will confirm the play with actual measurements this weekend and post it to you asap.  You are right about the cover that extends down into the aft berth, maybe 10". The cover is removed fairly easily, underneath are the pulleys and cables connecting the wheel to the steering quadrant. The quadrant is of course mounted on the rudder post which protrudes up through the sole of the cockpit and terminates in a cast fitting that the emergency tiller can be mounted into. The rudder post runs down between the battery box and the fuel tank as I am sure it does on your boat. Add in the underside of the steps molded into the transom and things start to get very tight in this area.
                  I found out just how tight last summer when I needed to replace the fuel level sending unit. There was no obvious way to remove it so I called Catalina. I was told that I would have to cut the fuel tank loose from the hull to provide clearance. I thought that was crazy for an otherwise easy repair. I came up with a way to replace the unit with out cutting the tank loose. It's complicated and can be painful. I have a real aversion to working in this area unless absolutely necessary.
                   
                  I look forward to further discussion,
                   
                  Tom

                   
                  On 4/13/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:

                  Tom:
                      I am really curious, how much play do you have in your rudder? We have a tiller and Diesel and can get to the rudder post area behind the battery box. The wheel boat I have seen had an additional 'cover' dropping down about 2' below the bottom of the cockpit sole and took up valuable vertical room from the aft berth. This may really make getting to the battery box and area behind a real chore. I take out the cushions when getting into this area just to provide a little more room.

                  Bob Unkel


                  On 4/12/07 2:15 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                   
                   

                  Thanks for the info Leighton. Unfortunately in my situation it is not a particularly easy job to drop the rudder. My boat has wheel steering and a diesel engine. This makes working behind the aft bulkhead a tough place to be. I think I would have to remove the steering quadrant and a couple of other things I cannot even see because of the fuel tank. This is why I was trying to gauge how much play is typical. It's potentially a bigger project than I want to tackle unless absolutely necessary.

                  On 4/12/07, Leighton Westlake <leighton@thedanisgroup.com> wrote:
                  Check the bushings top and bottom.  On mine they are plastic and have lasted without problem. They may have broken and are causing excess play in the rudder.  If I had my choice I would have a bronze bushing made just because I do not trust plastic. It is easy enough to drop the rudder and inspect the bushings.



                  Leighton D. Westlake, Jr.

                  Vice-President and General Manager

                  Team USA-5 division of

                  The DANIS Group, llc

                  10175 Flag Drive

                  Palm Beach Gardens , FL 33410-4775

                  TEL: 561-799-5280

                  FAX: 561-799-5776

                  email: leighton @ thedanisgroup.com <http://thedanisgroup.com>


                  From: capri26@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:capri26@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Unkel
                  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 7:30 PM
                  To: capri26@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [capri26] How Much Play is too much play?



                  On 4/8/07 11:00 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:



                   
                   

                  Hello All,

                  While preparing for bottom paint, I noticed the rudder has some play
                  front to back, may be up and down. Does anyone know what is correct
                  here. Is any play too much? or is some play typical?

                  Thanks,

                  Tom
                   Tom:
                      Just how much clearance do you have or what makes you think there is a problem? These things are not precision fit assemblies.
                   There is some clearance between the rudder post and the housing in the hull. The vertical clearance is determined between the tiller fitting and the top of the rudder. There should be a 'washer/shim' between the top of the rudder  and the hull. It is like a big plastic washer.
                      Do you have a tiller or wheel steering? If tiller you can remove the single bolt in the tiller fitting that bolts it to the rudder shaft and the rudder will drop down. It weighs about 40-50#. I can 'rock' my rudder back and forth with the tip of the rudder probably moving at least 1". The rudder shaft housing in the hull is just fiberglass and there aren't any 'replaceable bearings' in this assembly. If you have a lot of clearance, you might be able to use a strip of UHMW tape around the shaft or in the housing to take up excess clearance.
                      As for a wheel steering, I haven't had one apart so I can't comment. I believe they put the sector gear below the deck and opened up the housing. The shaft is still supported top and bottom. Getting it out will involve tearing apart the wheel steering. Perhaps one of our other members has had this apart and can share their experience with you.

                  Regards,
                  Bob Unkel
                       
                      



                   


                   
                      


                • Tom Black
                  I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be about 3/16 in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the current owner of a Catalina
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 15, 2007
                    I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                    about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                    current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                    25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                    little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                    two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                    dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                    to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                    Opinions?
                  • Bob Unkel
                    Tom: I am guessing that the 3/16² is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 16, 2007
                      Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom:
                          I am guessing that the 3/16” is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don’t have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the ‘slop’ you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16” between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then “Houston we have a problem”.

                      Regards,
                      Bob Unkel


                       On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                       
                       

                      I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                      about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                      current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                      25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                      little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                      two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                      dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                      to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                      Opinions?

                       
                          

                    • Tom Black
                      Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 17, 2007
                        Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                        On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:

                        Tom:
                            I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                        Regards,
                        Bob Unkel




                         On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                         
                         

                        I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                        about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                        current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                        25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                        little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                        two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                        dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                        to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                        Opinions?

                         
                            


                      • Bob Unkel
                        On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, Tom Black wrote: Tom: Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 17, 2007
                          Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                          Tom:
                              Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn’t too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                          Here’s hoping you don’t have much side to side movement!

                          Regards,
                          Bob

                           
                           

                          Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                          On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                          Tom:
                              I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                          Regards,
                          Bob Unkel



                           On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                           
                           

                          I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                          about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                          current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                          25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                          little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                          two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                          dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                          to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                          Opinions?

                           
                              


                           

                           
                              

                        • Tom Black
                          Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16 and total deflection starboard to port is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                            Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                            On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:

                            On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                            Tom:
                                Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                            Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                            Regards,
                            Bob


                             
                             

                            Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                            On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                            Tom:
                                I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                            Regards,
                            Bob Unkel



                             On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                             
                             

                            I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                            about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                            current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                            25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                            little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                            two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                            dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                            to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                            Opinions?

                             
                                


                             

                             
                                


                          • Bob Unkel
                            Tom: I just pulled my boat home today. The rudder is out of it because I was sealing it over the winter. I didn¹t remember seeing bushings and today I
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                              Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom:
                                  I just pulled my boat home today. The rudder is out of it because I was sealing it over the winter. I didn’t remember seeing bushings and today I confirmed there are no “Bushings” inside the tube. It is just a fiberglass tube bonded to the cockpit floor and the hull. Personally, I don’ t think you have a problem with the clearances.  With that in mind, was the problem when you were sailing and the wheel had a lot of “Play” in it? Or did you have some other symptom?
                                  My thought is that you may have just play in the wheel mechanism that you might be able to adjust out of it. If you are looking for a project, tearing it apart will be a good one. If you want to take up the clearance in the rudder post/tube, my suggestion would be to wrap the rudder post with UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) tape. This is a high density plastic bearing material and they make it in a tape form. An industrial plastics supplier may be able to get it for you. Many years ago, I used it on my old boat to add a bearing surface to the sliding hatch assembly. The old boat originally had fiberglass on fiberglass and not a good idea for a sliding hatch bearing.
                                  I will measure the ‘wiggle’ in my boat this week-end. Big week-end for me, boat now home for bottom paint and I get to drive 8 laps around Indy in a Nascar car on Sunday.

                              Regards,
                              Bob
                                  
                                  
                              On 4/20/07 12:52 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                               
                               

                              Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                              On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                              On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                              Tom:
                                  Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                              Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                              Regards,
                              Bob

                               
                               

                              Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                              On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                              Tom:
                                  I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                              Regards,
                              Bob Unkel



                               On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                               
                               

                              I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                              about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                              current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                              25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                              little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                              two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                              dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                              to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                              Opinions?

                               
                                  


                               

                               
                                  


                               

                               
                                  

                            • Tom Black
                              Thanks for the info Bob. I plan to remove the aft bulkhead this weekend and have a look at how the rudder is mounted. I will confirm the design with that of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 20, 2007
                                Thanks for the info Bob. I plan to remove the aft bulkhead this weekend and have a look at how the rudder is mounted. I will confirm the design with that of your boat and let you know. I hope I have the same situation in my boat. If so I plan to launch next month and not be concerned about it.
                                I don't know how you managed to get a ride in a NASCAR stock car, but you are a lucky man. I am so jealous. I always thought I could handle one of those beasts until I went to a NASCAR race in Napa/Sonoma years back. We had full access passes and were able to see things up close and personal. I wasn't so confident in my abilities after I saw how crude and mean the cars really are, not to mention rip your guts out fast. I had a whole new respect for the guys behind the wheel after that weekend.
                                 
                                Thanks again.
                                 
                                Tom

                                 
                                On 4/20/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:

                                Tom:
                                    I just pulled my boat home today. The rudder is out of it because I was sealing it over the winter. I didn't remember seeing bushings and today I confirmed there are no "Bushings" inside the tube. It is just a fiberglass tube bonded to the cockpit floor and the hull. Personally, I don' t think you have a problem with the clearances.  With that in mind, was the problem when you were sailing and the wheel had a lot of "Play" in it? Or did you have some other symptom?
                                    My thought is that you may have just play in the wheel mechanism that you might be able to adjust out of it. If you are looking for a project, tearing it apart will be a good one. If you want to take up the clearance in the rudder post/tube, my suggestion would be to wrap the rudder post with UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) tape. This is a high density plastic bearing material and they make it in a tape form. An industrial plastics supplier may be able to get it for you. Many years ago, I used it on my old boat to add a bearing surface to the sliding hatch assembly. The old boat originally had fiberglass on fiberglass and not a good idea for a sliding hatch bearing.
                                    I will measure the 'wiggle' in my boat this week-end. Big week-end for me, boat now home for bottom paint and I get to drive 8 laps around Indy in a Nascar car on Sunday.

                                Regards,
                                Bob


                                    
                                    
                                On 4/20/07 12:52 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                 
                                 

                                Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                                On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                                Tom:
                                    Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                                Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                                Regards,
                                Bob

                                 
                                 

                                Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                                On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                Tom:
                                    I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                                Regards,
                                Bob Unkel



                                 On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                 
                                 

                                I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                                about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                                current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                                25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                                little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                                two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                                dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                                to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                                Opinions?

                                 
                                    


                                 

                                 
                                    


                                 

                                 
                                    


                              • Bob Unkel
                                Tom: I put my rudder back on and measured it and I have the same amount of movement. Regards, Bob ... Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom: I
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 25, 2007
                                  Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom:
                                      I put my rudder back on and measured it and I have the same amount of movement.


                                  Regards,
                                  Bob

                                  On 4/20/07 12:52 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                   
                                   

                                  Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                                  On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                  On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                                  Tom:
                                      Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                                  Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                                  Regards,
                                  Bob

                                   
                                   

                                  Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                                  On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                  Tom:
                                      I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                                  Regards,
                                  Bob Unkel



                                   On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                   
                                   

                                  I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                                  about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                                  current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                                  25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                                  little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                                  two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                                  dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                                  to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                                  Opinions?

                                   
                                      


                                   

                                   
                                      


                                   

                                   
                                      

                                • Tom Black
                                  Thanks a ton Bob. I really appreciate your advice and help. Look me up when you are near Reno and we will sail Lake Tahoe. Tom ... Thanks a ton Bob. I really
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 25, 2007
                                    Thanks a ton Bob. I really appreciate your advice and help. Look me up when you are near Reno and we will sail Lake Tahoe.
                                     
                                    Tom

                                     
                                    On 4/25/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:

                                    Tom:
                                        I put my rudder back on and measured it and I have the same amount of movement.


                                    Regards,
                                    Bob



                                    On 4/20/07 12:52 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                     
                                     

                                    Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                                    On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                    On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                                    Tom:
                                        Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                                    Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                                    Regards,
                                    Bob

                                     
                                     

                                    Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                                    On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                    Tom:
                                        I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                                    Regards,
                                    Bob Unkel



                                     On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                     
                                     

                                    I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                                    about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                                    current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                                    25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                                    little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                                    two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                                    dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                                    to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                                    Opinions?

                                     
                                        


                                     

                                     
                                        


                                     

                                     
                                        


                                  • Bob Unkel
                                    Tom: Glad I could help, hope you have a great sailing season!! Bob ... Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom: Glad I could help, hope you have
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 27, 2007
                                      Re: [capri26] Re: How Much Play is too much play? Tom:
                                          Glad I could help, hope you have a great sailing season!!

                                      Bob

                                      On 4/25/07 8:29 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                       
                                       

                                      Thanks a ton Bob. I really appreciate your advice and help. Look me up when you are near Reno and we will sail Lake Tahoe.
                                       
                                      Tom

                                       
                                      On 4/25/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                      Tom:
                                          I put my rudder back on and measured it and I have the same amount of movement.


                                      Regards,
                                      Bob


                                      On 4/20/07 12:52 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                       
                                       

                                      Hello Bob - I had a chance to measure the play in the rudder at the tip finally. The deflection fore and aft is 3/16" and total deflection starboard to port is 1/4". In both cases the movement is 1/2 the total, IE. 1/8" to starboard and 1/8" to port for a total of 1/4" over all. The top bearing seems fairly tight, the lower bearing seems to be where all the play is. I guess I am leaning toward digging in and replacing something. I am not sure exactly what and where to get it. I certainly do not want to open Pandora's Box. What are your thoughts?

                                      On 4/17/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                      On 4/17/07 3:08 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:
                                      Tom:
                                          Please check one more item. Check how much the tip of the rudder moves from side to side. The gap at the top may not reflect the total clearance within the tube/post assembly. If there is a lot of side to side movement of the rudder, then I would suggest pulling the rudder out of the tube and looking at both surfaces –post and tube. The correction will be determined by what you find. If side to side isn't too much then nothing needed. If a lot of movement, then depending on what the inside of the tube and the rudder post looks like will direct how to fix it. Since the post is Stainless Steel and the tube is fiberglass, the most likely place for the wear is the ID of the tube.

                                      Here's hoping you don't have much side to side movement!

                                      Regards,
                                      Bob

                                       
                                       

                                      Well Bob.....I guess we have a problem. The play was measured at the post and tube. What is your recommendation?

                                      On 4/16/07, Bob Unkel <unkel@...> wrote:
                                      Tom:
                                          I am guessing that the 3/16" is at the tip end of the rudder rather than the clearance between the rudder post and the rudder tube in the hull. If my assumption is correct, then it is my humble opinion that you don't have a problem and go sail the bottom off the boat! Some of the 'slop' you may be experiencing may be in the wheel mechanism. If the clearance is 3/16" between the rudder post and the rudder tube, then "Houston we have a problem".

                                      Regards,
                                      Bob Unkel



                                       On 4/15/07 10:30 PM, "Tom Black" <uslaser@...> wrote:


                                       
                                       

                                      I checked the play in the rudder this weekend and it appears to be
                                      about 3/16" in any direction. I had a friend with me that is the
                                      current owner of a Catalina 34 and previous owner of a Catalina 30 and
                                      25. He had to shim the rudder of his 30 some years back so he has a
                                      little experience. He said he thought the rudder could use a shim or
                                      two but probably was not worth the trouble at this time. I am in a
                                      dilemma as we are quickly approaching sailing season and I was planning
                                      to leave the boat in the water for two sailing seasons if possible. Any
                                      Opinions?

                                       
                                          


                                       

                                       
                                          


                                       

                                       
                                          


                                       

                                       
                                          

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