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CN35 Blisters/Wet Deck Core

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  • Albert Boyce
    I am in the process of purchasing Discovery, a 1976 CN35, Hull # 132. The survey was conducted yesterday and the surveyor observed some blisters on the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 5, 1998
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      I am in the process of purchasing Discovery, a 1976 CN35, Hull # 132. The
      survey was conducted yesterday and the surveyor observed some blisters on
      the starboard side of the keel covering an area approximately 2 ft by 2ft.
      There was no delamination. He also obtained high moisture level readings
      on the deck, cabin house, and cockpit sole, but not the bridgedeck or on
      the cabin house roof adjacent to the companionway.

      His recomendation regarding the blistering was either do a peel job now
      (for about $10K) or do nothing and sail the boat for 4-5 years and then get
      a peel job (which would probably be a bit more expensive then because of
      deeper involvement of laminate). He felt that repairing the blisters and
      applying a barrier coat would be a waste of money. He was also concerned
      that the elevated moisture in the keel could compromise the strength of the
      hull if the boat was to be used for extensive offshore sailing. The peel
      and re-lamintion would restore the strength of the hull..

      As to the deck, he suggested rebedding all of the deck hardware and then
      remove the headliner and drill a honeycomb of 3" to "4 holes from inside
      the cabin through the laminate to allow the core to dry out. He estimated
      it would take approximately 6 months for the core to dry out in this
      fashion. There was no deck delamination but he expected that there would
      be soon if the core was not dried out.

      Does anyone have experience with these kinds of repairs on a CN35 or with
      blister repairs and deck saturation, generally. Any info would be
      appreciated.

      Al Boyce
    • Albert Boyce
      Tony Thanks for you response. The boat that I had surveyed has the Perkins 4-108 with a hydraulic drive. The surveyor suggested that I try to get a copy of
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 5, 1998
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        Tony

        Thanks for you response. The boat that I had surveyed has the Perkins
        4-108 with a hydraulic drive. The surveyor suggested that I try to get a
        copy of the owners manual for the hydraulic system so that I would know
        what routine maintenance Camper Nicholson recommends for the system.

        Does your boat have the hydraulic drive? Do you know whether Camper
        Nicholson still provides support for these boats?

        Thanks

        Al Boyce



        At 07:14 PM 1/5/00 +0000, you wrote:
        >Al,
        >
        >I have #4 so just by age, I probably have (or will have) a lot of the
        >probs. you're having. I'm in the process of replacing the aluminium deck
        >plates encapsulated below most of the fittings, and can let you have a
        >blow by blow proceedure if you wish.
        >I've sailed Levington Lass for 11 years now, around the West of GB and
        >Ireland, so I can advice about a fair number of faults and solutions if
        >you don't get much of a responce from others on the list. The trouble is
        >I'm a lazy internet user!
        >My job involves sitting at these screens on-line for most of the day, so
        >during leisure time it tends to stay off!
        >
        >Give me a shout if I can help though..........I'll make a New Year's
        >resolution to be more pro-active!!
        >
        >Kind regards,
        >
        >Tony
        >
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      • York-Miller, Michael
        In 1998 I discovered that Vortex (CN 35 Hull #158) had some blistering and high moisture levels in the hull. Worst area was low down on port side roughly in
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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          In 1998 I discovered that Vortex (CN 35 Hull #158) had some blistering and
          high moisture levels in the hull. Worst area was low down on port side
          roughly in line with the mast. Moisture levels elsewhere not high. I
          decided to have a full peel job (also a topside repaint as it seemed stupid
          not to take the opportunity). After peeling in November 1998 Vortex was
          left under cover to dry out until July 1999. For about two months in
          June/July she was under constant artificial heating. I believe that this
          very thorough drying out period is the key to success. Very frustrating but
          well worth it in the long run. I would certainly not recommend putting the
          job off - it would be better to sell the boat now in my opinion.

          I'm not sure about the high moisture on the deck, coachroof etc. Your
          surveyor's recommendation seems a bit drastic. I would be tempted to do the
          hull peel job, let her dry out and then have another look at these areas.

          Vortex was epoxied using Blake's products. Your quoted price of $K10 seems
          a little high. Vortex had her topsides done as well and the total came to
          8K pounds sterling which I think is around $K13.2 at todays prices.

          Good luck. I shall be interested to hear your decision.

          Mike
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Albert Boyce [SMTP:aboyce@...]
          Sent: 05 June 1998 12:23
          To: campernicholson@onelist.com
          Subject: [campernicholson] CN35 Blisters/Wet Deck Core

          I am in the process of purchasing Discovery, a 1976 CN35, Hull #
          132. The
          survey was conducted yesterday and the surveyor observed some
          blisters on
          the starboard side of the keel covering an area approximately 2 ft
          by 2ft.
          There was no delamination. He also obtained high moisture level
          readings
          on the deck, cabin house, and cockpit sole, but not the bridgedeck
          or on
          the cabin house roof adjacent to the companionway.

          His recomendation regarding the blistering was either do a
          peel job now
          (for about $10K) or do nothing and sail the boat for 4-5 years and
          then get
          a peel job (which would probably be a bit more expensive then
          because of
          deeper involvement of laminate). He felt that repairing the
          blisters and
          applying a barrier coat would be a waste of money. He was also
          concerned
          that the elevated moisture in the keel could compromise the strength
          of the
          hull if the boat was to be used for extensive offshore sailing. The
          peel
          and re-lamintion would restore the strength of the hull..

          As to the deck, he suggested rebedding all of the deck
          hardware and then
          remove the headliner and drill a honeycomb of 3" to "4 holes from
          inside
          the cabin through the laminate to allow the core to dry out. He
          estimated
          it would take approximately 6 months for the core to dry out in this
          fashion. There was no deck delamination but he expected that there
          would
          be soon if the core was not dried out.

          Does anyone have experience with these kinds of repairs on a
          CN35 or with
          blister repairs and deck saturation, generally. Any info would be
          appreciated.

          Al Boyce


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        • AnthonyBrowne
          Al, I have #4 so just by age, I probably have (or will have) a lot of the probs. you re having. I m in the process of replacing the aluminium deck plates
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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            Al,

            I have #4 so just by age, I probably have (or will have) a lot of the
            probs. you're having. I'm in the process of replacing the aluminium deck
            plates encapsulated below most of the fittings, and can let you have a
            blow by blow proceedure if you wish.
            I've sailed Levington Lass for 11 years now, around the West of GB and
            Ireland, so I can advice about a fair number of faults and solutions if
            you don't get much of a responce from others on the list. The trouble is
            I'm a lazy internet user!
            My job involves sitting at these screens on-line for most of the day, so
            during leisure time it tends to stay off!

            Give me a shout if I can help though..........I'll make a New Year's
            resolution to be more pro-active!!

            Kind regards,

            Tony
          • Dennis Gibbons
            Pardon me for butting in, CN provides a lot of service except in the area of engines. They pretty much just put them in and forgot about them. Your best
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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              Pardon me for butting in,
              CN provides a lot of service except in the area of engines. They pretty
              much just put them in and forgot about them. Your best source of info on
              the engine and trans is via the rest of us.

              Where is the boat located?

              I have the infamous "Piranha" with a Hurth v-drive.
              Dennis Gibbons
              dennis-gibbons@...
              CN35-207
              S/V Dark Lady
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Albert Boyce <aboyce@...>
              To: <campernicholson@onelist.com>
              Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 4:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [campernicholson] CN35 Blisters/Wet Deck Core


              > Tony
              >
              > Thanks for you response. The boat that I had surveyed has the Perkins
              > 4-108 with a hydraulic drive. The surveyor suggested that I try to get a
              > copy of the owners manual for the hydraulic system so that I would know
              > what routine maintenance Camper Nicholson recommends for the system.
              >
              > Does your boat have the hydraulic drive? Do you know whether Camper
              > Nicholson still provides support for these boats?
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > Al Boyce
              >
              >
              >
              > At 07:14 PM 1/5/00 +0000, you wrote:
              > >Al,
              > >
              > >I have #4 so just by age, I probably have (or will have) a lot of the
              > >probs. you're having. I'm in the process of replacing the aluminium deck
              > >plates encapsulated below most of the fittings, and can let you have a
              > >blow by blow proceedure if you wish.
              > >I've sailed Levington Lass for 11 years now, around the West of GB and
              > >Ireland, so I can advice about a fair number of faults and solutions if
              > >you don't get much of a responce from others on the list. The trouble is
              > >I'm a lazy internet user!
              > >My job involves sitting at these screens on-line for most of the day, so
              > >during leisure time it tends to stay off!
              > >
              > >Give me a shout if I can help though..........I'll make a New Year's
              > >resolution to be more pro-active!!
              > >
              > >Kind regards,
              > >
              > >Tony
              > >
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              > >Get great offers on top-notch products that match your interests!
              > >Sign up for eLerts at:
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              > >
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              > > campernicholson-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              > >and reply to the confirmation email we send you.
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              > >
              >
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            • AnthonyBrowne
              Al, There are 5 C+N 35 s in my local yard (all with Hydraulic Drives as far as I know), and I know for a fact that at least one of them has had their Hydraulic
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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                Al,

                There are 5 C+N 35's in my local yard (all with Hydraulic Drives as far
                as I know), and I know for a fact that at least one of them has had their
                Hydraulic Drives overhauled locally by a firm that deals with JCB
                diggers. C+N don't deal with this I believe. The motor is pretty
                straight forward though according to an hydraulic guy I
                know........therefore look locally!

                The piece of advice from my Yard's engineer is "If it ain't
                bust.........!!" Just keep the oil very clean and replace the (very
                large) filter annually.

                Kind regards,

                Tony
              • Denece &/or Bob Vincent
                Albert, I would take a good look at the blisters. If they are the little fingernail sized ones, I would not worry about it for a moment. We found them in the
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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                  Albert,
                  I would take a good look at the blisters. If they are the little fingernail
                  sized ones, I would not worry about it for a moment. We found them in the
                  hundreds when we finally stripped off the 18 layers of bottom paint. We just
                  opened and dried the (over a week in Autumn) washed them out with water and
                  applied epoxy and VC-Watertite then painted the bottom and sailed it. Two
                  years later we hauled and could not find where we had done the repairs ; no
                  problems.
                  There is a website by a couple of surveyors that goes over the subject well.
                  As soon as I can recall the name I will forward it.
                  The deck might be more worrisome. The decks are only 'cored' with
                  plywood/balsa in certain areas, not overall. CN can send you a schematic of
                  where these areas are on Discovery. Does it sound solid (the same all over)
                  when rapped with a mallet? If the deck sounds solid maybe it is nothing. Is
                  it firm? No 'give' when you jump on it? Moisture meters alone can be less
                  than informative. There is really no way to be absolutely sure without
                  destructive testing.
                  Any tractor repair place can fix hydraulics--and not at steep boatyard
                  prices!
                  Did you go along on the survey? Have you seen the stuff the survey is
                  talking about?
                  Keep us informed.

                  Denece
                • Denece &/or Bob Vincent
                  Here is the surveyors site I spoke of. http://pascoe.com/ Ah Hah! End of senior moment (I KNEW I was too young!) Denece
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 5, 2000
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                    Here is the surveyors site I spoke of.

                    http://pascoe.com/

                    Ah Hah! End of senior moment (I KNEW I was too young!)
                    Denece
                  • Jteipen@xxx.xxx
                    Al, I own hull # 68 with a Perkins 4-108, a Denison Abex hydraulic pump and a Fraser Deri Hydraulic motor. Getting parts for the Perkins is absolutely no
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 6, 2000
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                      Al,

                      I own hull # 68 with a Perkins 4-108, a Denison Abex hydraulic pump and a
                      Fraser Deri Hydraulic motor. Getting parts for the Perkins is absolutely no
                      issue whatsoever. I also have the original Perkins engine manual which is
                      pretty useful. However, I have learned that some of the engines are slightly
                      different from what is in the manual. I don't know where you are located
                      but Denison has dealers all over the US. The service technician at the
                      dealer near me told me that there is practically no maintenance of the pump
                      except to change the oil and filter on a regular basis. The only other thing
                      he could think of is to replace the seals if they leak. There is a seal kit
                      available for my pump for about $180. I always figured I would ship one of
                      these kits as a spare if I was about to do extended cruising but I've never
                      gotten around to ordering it. I don't have a manual for the pump but I do
                      have an extensive parts list. I was told by the dealer that it is possible
                      to replace the entire pump should it ever become necessary. As I recall the
                      cost is about $1500. I have not been able to find any information or contact
                      info for the Fraser motor unit. I would appreciate any info that anyone
                      might have on it.

                      When I was buying my boat, I was a little leery about the hydraulic drive but
                      it has been very dependable. I assume the hydraulics allow a better
                      placement of the prop and the boat actually does back pretty well but then I
                      don't have anything to compare it to having never had the opportunity to back
                      a 35 with a transmission set up. I think the main downside is that the
                      hydraulics take more horsepower which takes more fuel which limits range
                      somewhat. The 4-108 generates 48 to 52 horsepower depending on which source
                      you look at and burns a little less than 1 gal/hour at cruising speed. That
                      seems high to me but maybe others can comment on their experience.

                      If you buy the boat I would be happy to copy the manuals/parts lists that I
                      have and give you the contact numbers and info that I have.

                      Jim Teipen
                      SV Alegria
                      CN 35 - 68
                    • Dennis Gibbons
                      Commenting on fuel consumption. On the long way down to Bermuda with NO wind I had the occasion to carefully monitor fuel consumption on my Piranha. Cruising
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 6, 2000
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                        Commenting on fuel consumption. On the long way down to Bermuda with NO
                        wind I had the occasion to carefully monitor fuel consumption on my Piranha.
                        Cruising at 5-5.5 knots in a virtual calm at 1800rpm I averaged better than
                        1/2 gal per hour. I now use that figure as gospel.

                        Dennis Gibbons
                        dennis-gibbons@...
                        CN35-207
                        S/V Dark Lady
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <Jteipen@...>
                        To: <campernicholson@onelist.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 3:23 AM
                        Subject: Re: [campernicholson] CN35 Blisters/Wet Deck Core


                        > Al,
                        >
                        > I own hull # 68 with a Perkins 4-108, a Denison Abex hydraulic pump and a
                        > Fraser Deri Hydraulic motor. Getting parts for the Perkins is absolutely
                        no
                        > issue whatsoever. I also have the original Perkins engine manual which is
                        > pretty useful. However, I have learned that some of the engines are
                        slightly
                        > different from what is in the manual. I don't know where you are located
                        > but Denison has dealers all over the US. The service technician at the
                        > dealer near me told me that there is practically no maintenance of the
                        pump
                        > except to change the oil and filter on a regular basis. The only other
                        thing
                        > he could think of is to replace the seals if they leak. There is a seal
                        kit
                        > available for my pump for about $180. I always figured I would ship one
                        of
                        > these kits as a spare if I was about to do extended cruising but I've
                        never
                        > gotten around to ordering it. I don't have a manual for the pump but I do
                        > have an extensive parts list. I was told by the dealer that it is
                        possible
                        > to replace the entire pump should it ever become necessary. As I recall
                        the
                        > cost is about $1500. I have not been able to find any information or
                        contact
                        > info for the Fraser motor unit. I would appreciate any info that anyone
                        > might have on it.
                        >
                        > When I was buying my boat, I was a little leery about the hydraulic drive
                        but
                        > it has been very dependable. I assume the hydraulics allow a better
                        > placement of the prop and the boat actually does back pretty well but then
                        I
                        > don't have anything to compare it to having never had the opportunity to
                        back
                        > a 35 with a transmission set up. I think the main downside is that the
                        > hydraulics take more horsepower which takes more fuel which limits range
                        > somewhat. The 4-108 generates 48 to 52 horsepower depending on which
                        source
                        > you look at and burns a little less than 1 gal/hour at cruising speed.
                        That
                        > seems high to me but maybe others can comment on their experience.
                        >
                        > If you buy the boat I would be happy to copy the manuals/parts lists that
                        I
                        > have and give you the contact numbers and info that I have.
                        >
                        > Jim Teipen
                        > SV Alegria
                        > CN 35 - 68
                        >
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