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RE: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs

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  • JIM TEIPEN
    Mark, Thanks for the detail on your toe rail project. I was considering using the same technique for building a rail that conforms to the curve. Looking at
    Message 1 of 30 , Jan 3, 2013
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      Mark,

      Thanks for the detail on your toe rail project.  I was considering using the same technique for building a rail that conforms to the curve.   Looking at the existing rail, I assume it's essentially how it was done.    I'd like to make the new one almost twice as thick and roughly the same width as the existing one.  I happened to speak with an old shipwright who was restoring a 1920's Monterey style commercial fishing boat who told me it would be possible to force a teak rail of those dimensions to the shape of the boat, but it sounds difficult and I don't think I want to even attempt it. 

      I'm not familiar with Jarrah wood.  It's still possible to get really nice quality Burmese teak where I live and I've already used it for a couple of other projects.  


       It's expensive of course, $40/board foot, which I'm sure would put the cost of wood for the project well over $1,000.   Phillipine mahogany is about 1/3 the cost of teak at the same source, and that might turn out to be my choice mostly, for cost reasons. 

      I know what you mean by the S-shaped scarf joints.  Were yours from top to bottom and did you use a jig of some kind in order to get consistent joints?  

      Lastly, approximately how wide and how long were the planks that you used?  Was it possible to get more than one curved cut from a plank for example. 

      Thanks very much for answering all of my questions. 

      Jim   


      To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      From: tornado186@...
      Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:15:55 +0000
      Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs

       


      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi Mark,
      > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.
      > Regards
      > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68
      >
      > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      > From: tornado186@...
      > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000
      > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
      >
      >
      > I happened to have a source of old (pre-controlled) Jarrah. The density is high, can't be bent. I think it may not float. I selected wide boards and had a helper hold them at the rail so I sould trace the rail profile on the underside of the board using the outside edge of the hull as a template. I then translated this shape to the 3.5 inch wide finished shape leaving the appropriate overhang on both sides. This I then cut out on a band saw. I made an open, soft, S-shape overlap pattern to join successive rails. Look around your yard for an older boat with wood rails for an example. I found several. I screwed and glued using 3M 5200 and long screws into the top of the toe rails. Screws were 4 inch long heavy wood screws. Counter set the holes and use teak plugs to fill the holes. I used 3-M 4200 Black to fill the joints between rail sections. I sanded and oiled the completed rails using TROPIC TEAK http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/STR-88016/?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google&gclid=CK3w5IiAy7QCFetDMgodckgAUQ

      I learned that ALL wood imported to the US has to be kiln dried. This means that you will never get green wood you can bend. Further, all good tropical hardwoods cannot be softened by a steam tunnel so don't waste time trying. You can only cut your shape from planks or lay-up and bend & glue thin strips. In the tropics, you might find wet, green wood. This will bend like rubber. My Camper original rails were one piece 60 feet long without joints. They were apparently formed wet against the hull or on a form.


    • arnesenr@aol.com
      Dear Jim I replaced my toe rail in Greece last year. I had a company shape the teak and a shipright screw it on. He made simple joints which have not held so
      Message 2 of 30 , Jan 3, 2013
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        Dear Jim
         
        I replaced my toe rail in Greece last year. I had  a company shape the teak and a shipright screw it on. He made simple joints which have not held so the rail has come apart at the joints. The pieces were not cut out but bent and glued. I would suggest that if you were going this route make the strakes in one piece  make sure the joints are well glued.
         
        Ralph Arnesen
        Argonaut of Rhu 8/35  
        -----Original Message-----
        From: JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...>gg 
        To: campernicholson <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 5:38 pm
        Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs

         
        Mark,

        Thanks for the detail on your toe rail project.  I was considering using the same technique for building a rail that conforms to the curve.   Looking at the existing rail, I assume it's essentially how it was done.    I'd like to make the new one almost twice as thick and roughly the same width as the existing one.  I happened to speak with an old shipwright who was restoring a 1920's Monterey style commercial fishing boat who told me it would be possible to force a teak rail of those dimensions to the shape of the boat, but it sounds difficult and I don't think I want to even attempt it. 

        I'm not familiar with Jarrah wood.  It's still possible to get really nice quality Burmese teak where I live and I've already used it for a couple of other projects.  


         It's expensive of course, $40/board foot, which I'm sure would put the cost of wood for the project well over $1,000.   Phillipine mahogany is about 1/3 the cost of teak at the same source, and that might turn out to be my choice mostly, for cost reasons. 

        I know what you mean by the S-shaped scarf joints.  Were yours from top to bottom and did you use a jig of some kind in order to get consistent joints?  

        Lastly, approximately how wide and how long were the planks that you used?  Was it possible to get more than one curved cut from a plank for example. 

        Thanks very much for answering all of my questions. 

        Jim   


        To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
        From: tornado186@...
        Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:15:55 +0000
        Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs

         


        --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Mark,
        > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.
        > Regards
        > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68
        >
        > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
        > From: tornado186@...
        > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000
        > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
        >
        >
        > I happened to have a source of old (pre-controlled) Jarrah. The density is high, can't be bent. I think it may not float. I selected wide boards and had a helper hold them at the rail so I sould trace the rail profile on the underside of the board using the outside edge of the hull as a template. I then translated this shape to the 3.5 inch wide finished shape leaving the appropriate overhang on both sides. This I then cut out on a band saw. I made an open, soft, S-shape overlap pattern to join successive rails. Look around your yard for an older boat with wood rails for an example. I found several. I screwed and glued using 3M 5200 and long screws into the top of the toe rails. Screws were 4 inch long heavy wood screws. Counter set the holes and use teak plugs to fill the holes. I used 3-M 4200 Black to fill the joints between rail sections. I sanded and oiled the completed rails using TROPIC TEAK http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/STR-88016/?utm_source=feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google&gclid=CK3w5IiAy7QCFetDMgodckgAUQ

        I learned that ALL wood imported to the US has to be kiln dried. This means that you will never get green wood you can bend. Further, all good tropical hardwoods cannot be softened by a steam tunnel so don't waste time trying. You can only cut your shape from planks or lay-up and bend & glue thin strips. In the tropics, you might find wet, green wood. This will bend like rubber. My Camper original rails were one piece 60 feet long without joints. They were apparently formed wet against the hull or on a form.


      • Peter Jørgensen
        ....I´m not sure if i understand this correct.. if the teaklist to the toerail needs to be shaped before drying a guy at our habour had made a pretty nice
        Message 3 of 30 , Jan 4, 2013
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          ....I´m not sure if i understand this correct.. if the teaklist to the toerail needs to be "shaped" before drying a guy at our habour had made a pretty nice work against all natural laws.
          He has restored an old wooden sailyacht from 1958 and he managed to bend the list in shape of the boat. The wide dimension on the list is roughly the same as on Addiena but twice it´s hight. He glued the list with west system epoxy. A long angel cut make a pretty large surface for the epoxy wich seems to make the difference.
           
          Peter   

          From: "arnesenr@..." <arnesenr@...>
          To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
           
          Dear Jim
           
          I replaced my toe rail in Greece last year. I had  a company shape the teak and a shipright screw it on. He made simple joints which have not held so the rail has come apart at the joints. The pieces were not cut out but bent and glued. I would suggest that if you were going this route make the strakes in one piece  make sure the joints are well glued.
           
          Ralph Arnesen
          Argonaut of Rhu 8/35  
          -----Original Message----- From: JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...>gg  To: campernicholson <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 5:38 pm Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
           
          Mark,

          Thanks for the detail on your toe rail project.  I was considering using the same technique for building a rail that conforms to the curve.   Looking at the existing rail, I assume it's essentially how it was done.    I'd like to make the new one almost twice as thick and roughly the same width as the existing one.  I happened to speak with an old shipwright who was restoring a 1920's Monterey style commercial fishing boat who told me it would be possible to force a teak rail of those dimensions to the shape of the boat, but it sounds difficult and I don't think I want to even attempt it. 

          I'm not familiar with Jarrah wood.  It's still possible to get really nice quality Burmese teak where I live and I've already used it for a couple of other projects.  

           It's expensive of course, $40/board foot, which I'm sure would put the cost of wood for the project well over $1,000.   Phillipine mahogany is about 1/3 the cost of teak at the same source, and that might turn out to be my choice mostly, for cost reasons. 

          I know what you mean by the S-shaped scarf joints.  Were yours from top to bottom and did you use a jig of some kind in order to get consistent joints?  

          Lastly, approximately how wide and how long were the planks that you used?  Was it possible to get more than one curved cut from a plank for example. 

          Thanks very much for answering all of my questions. 

          Jim   
          To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com From: tornado186@... Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:15:55 +0000 Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs 
          --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...> wrote:>>>>>> Hi Mark,> I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.> Regards> Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68>> To: mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com> From: tornado186@...> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000> Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs>>> I happened to have a source of old (pre-controlled) Jarrah. The density is high, can't be bent. I think it may not float. I selected wide boards and had a helper hold them at the rail so I sould trace the rail profile on the underside of the board using the outside edge of the hull as a template. I then translated this shape to the 3.5 inch wide finished shape leaving the appropriate overhang on both sides. This I then cut out on a band saw. I made an open, soft, S-shape overlap pattern to join successive rails. Look around your yard for an older boat with wood rails for an example. I found several. I screwed and glued using 3M 5200 and long screws into the top of the toe rails. Screws were 4 inch long heavy wood screws. Counter set the holes and use teak plugs to fill the holes. I used 3-M 4200 Black to fill the joints between rail sections. I sanded and oiled the completed rails using TROPIC TEAK http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/STR-88016/?utm_source= feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google&gclid=CK3w5IiAy7QCFetDMgodckgAUQI learned that ALL wood imported to the US has to be kiln dried. This means that you will never get green wood you can bend. Further, all good tropical hardwoods cannot be softened by a steam tunnel so don't waste time trying. You can only cut your shape from planks or lay-up and bend & glue thin strips. In the tropics, you might find wet, green wood. This will bend like rubber. My Camper original rails were one piece 60 feet long without joints. They were apparently formed wet against the hull or on a form.
        • Francis Howard
          Hi guys, Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round
          Message 4 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
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            Hi guys,
            Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round gently. Also it does not need to be green timber to make it bend, think of a swept, laid deck, you use timber as dry as you can get it. The only bits on a laid deck that are cut out of solid are the covering boards, margin boards and king planks which are much wider.
            If you are going to use epoxy degrease the teak well with acetone, do you want a glued scarph though? You could put a sikaflex join in so it's easier to replace a section later if it gets damaged.
            Good luck
            Frank.

            On 4 Jan 2013, at 18:36, Peter Jørgensen <peterschoett@...> wrote:

             

            ....I´m not sure if i understand this correct.. if the teaklist to the toerail needs to be "shaped" before drying a guy at our habour had made a pretty nice work against all natural laws.
            He has restored an old wooden sailyacht from 1958 and he managed to bend the list in shape of the boat. The wide dimension on the list is roughly the same as on Addiena but twice it´s hight. He glued the list with west system epoxy. A long angel cut make a pretty large surface for the epoxy wich seems to make the difference.
             
            Peter   

            From: "arnesenr@..." <arnesenr@...>
            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 7:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
             
            Dear Jim
             
            I replaced my toe rail in Greece last year. I had  a company shape the teak and a shipright screw it on. He made simple joints which have not held so the rail has come apart at the joints. The pieces were not cut out but bent and glued. I would suggest that if you were going this route make the strakes in one piece  make sure the joints are well glued.
             
            Ralph Arnesen
            Argonaut of Rhu 8/35  
            -----Original Message----- From: JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...>gg  To: campernicholson <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 5:38 pm Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
             
            Mark,

            Thanks for the detail on your toe rail project.  I was considering using the same technique for building a rail that conforms to the curve.   Looking at the existing rail, I assume it's essentially how it was done.    I'd like to make the new one almost twice as thick and roughly the same width as the existing one.  I happened to speak with an old shipwright who was restoring a 1920's Monterey style commercial fishing boat who told me it would be possible to force a teak rail of those dimensions to the shape of the boat, but it sounds difficult and I don't think I want to even attempt it. 

            I'm not familiar with Jarrah wood.  It's still possible to get really nice quality Burmese teak where I live and I've already used it for a couple of other projects.  

             It's expensive of course, $40/board foot, which I'm sure would put the cost of wood for the project well over $1,000.   Phillipine mahogany is about 1/3 the cost of teak at the same source, and that might turn out to be my choice mostly, for cost reasons. 

            I know what you mean by the S-shaped scarf joints.  Were yours from top to bottom and did you use a jig of some kind in order to get consistent joints?  

            Lastly, approximately how wide and how long were the planks that you used?  Was it possible to get more than one curved cut from a plank for example. 

            Thanks very much for answering all of my questions. 

            Jim   
            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com From: tornado186@... Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 01:15:55 +0000 Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs 
            --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN <jteipen@...> wrote:>>>>>> Hi Mark,> I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.> Regards> Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68>> To: mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com> From: tornado186@...> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000> Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs>>> I happened to have a source of old (pre-controlled) Jarrah. The density is high, can't be bent. I think it may not float. I selected wide boards and had a helper hold them at the rail so I sould trace the rail profile on the underside of the board using the outside edge of the hull as a template. I then translated this shape to the 3.5 inch wide finished shape leaving the appropriate overhang on both sides. This I then cut out on a band saw. I made an open, soft, S-shape overlap pattern to join successive rails. Look around your yard for an older boat with wood rails for an example. I found several. I screwed and glued using 3M 5200 and long screws into the top of the toe rails. Screws were 4 inch long heavy wood screws. Counter set the holes and use teak plugs to fill the holes. I used 3-M 4200 Black to fill the joints between rail sections. I sanded and oiled the completed rails using TROPIC TEAK http://www.wholesalemarine.com/p/STR-88016/?utm_source= feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google&gclid=CK3w5IiAy7QCFetDMgodckgAUQI learned that ALL wood imported to the US has to be kiln dried. This means that you will never get green wood you can bend. Further, all good tropical hardwoods cannot be softened by a steam tunnel so don't waste time trying. You can only cut your shape from planks or lay-up and bend & glue thin strips. In the tropics, you might find wet, green wood. This will bend like rubber. My Camper original rails were one piece 60 feet long without joints. They were apparently formed wet against the hull or on a form.

          • MarkH
            ... I tried to bend around my hull. Using CAD software, I calculated a bend radius of 270 to 280 inches. The teak I bent was 1 inch thick and 3-1/2 inches
            Message 5 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
              >
              > Hi guys,
              > Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round gently. Also it does not need to be green timber to make it bend, think of a swept, laid deck, you use timber as dry as you can get it. The only bits on a laid deck that are cut out of solid are the covering boards, margin boards and king planks which are much wider.
              > If you are going to use epoxy degrease the teak well with acetone, do you want a glued scarph though? You could put a sikaflex join in so it's easier to replace a section later if it gets damaged.
              > Good luck
              > Frank.
              >
              >
              I tried to bend around my hull. Using CAD software, I calculated a bend radius of 270 to 280 inches. The teak I bent was 1 inch thick and 3-1/2 inches wide. There was a milled heel on the bottom to control the lay-up along the hull edge. Using clamps and block & tackle I progressively attached it every 8 inches using 4 inch long C-Sunk wood screws. My observation was that I applied huge loads in order to make the bend. This was totally successful EXCEPT - A week later we went to the boat to cruise with friends. The new rail had exploded outward in two places, shattering the teak into toothpicks. 800 bucks worth of teak - gone.

              You may be able to bend a large radius with a narrow width. As I noted earlier, I gave up and cut the curved sections out of wide boards about 6 to 8 feet long and overlap-joined the ends. This is totally successful and also adds no stresses to the hull. If a piece is wrecked, it can be easily replaced.
            • Francis Howard
              Yes you would struggle with a 3 1/2 wide teak capping, maybe I misunderstood, I thought the capping was off a Nic 35 which is obviously just bent around.
              Message 6 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
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                Yes you would struggle with a 3 1/2" wide teak capping, maybe I misunderstood, I thought the capping was off a Nic 35 which is obviously just bent around.

                Yours
                Frank

                On 5 Jan 2013, at 17:11, "MarkH" <tornado186@...> wrote:

                 



                --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
                >
                > Hi guys,
                > Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round gently. Also it does not need to be green timber to make it bend, think of a swept, laid deck, you use timber as dry as you can get it. The only bits on a laid deck that are cut out of solid are the covering boards, margin boards and king planks which are much wider.
                > If you are going to use epoxy degrease the teak well with acetone, do you want a glued scarph though? You could put a sikaflex join in so it's easier to replace a section later if it gets damaged.
                > Good luck
                > Frank.
                >
                >
                I tried to bend around my hull. Using CAD software, I calculated a bend radius of 270 to 280 inches. The teak I bent was 1 inch thick and 3-1/2 inches wide. There was a milled heel on the bottom to control the lay-up along the hull edge. Using clamps and block & tackle I progressively attached it every 8 inches using 4 inch long C-Sunk wood screws. My observation was that I applied huge loads in order to make the bend. This was totally successful EXCEPT - A week later we went to the boat to cruise with friends. The new rail had exploded outward in two places, shattering the teak into toothpicks. 800 bucks worth of teak - gone.

                You may be able to bend a large radius with a narrow width. As I noted earlier, I gave up and cut the curved sections out of wide boards about 6 to 8 feet long and overlap-joined the ends. This is totally successful and also adds no stresses to the hull. If a piece is wrecked, it can be easily replaced.

              • MarkH
                ... Our boat is a Nicholson 58. The sales glossy is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/photos/album/797524578/pic/list Our boat is ROXY. There are
                Message 7 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
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                  --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes you would struggle with a 3 1/2" wide teak capping, maybe I misunderstood, I thought the capping was off a Nic 35 which is obviously just bent around.
                  >
                  > Yours
                  > Frank
                  >
                  > On 5 Jan 2013, at 17:11, "MarkH" wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  Our boat is a Nicholson 58. The sales glossy is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/photos/album/797524578/pic/list

                  Our boat is ROXY. There are several albums on this site showing projects.
                • Graham Norbury
                  Using countersunk screws was also asking for trouble - they act like little splitting wedges under any appreciable load. You d have been better off
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
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                    Using countersunk screws was also asking for trouble - they act like little splitting wedges under any appreciable load.  You'd have been better off counterboring the fastener holes and use a pan headed screws.  Chances are you installed bungs over the screw holes anyway, so the end result would have looked the same.

                    Graham


                    On 1/5/2013 12:11 PM, MarkH wrote:
                     



                    --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi guys,
                    > Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round gently. Also it does not need to be green timber to make it bend, think of a swept, laid deck, you use timber as dry as you can get it. The only bits on a laid deck that are cut out of solid are the covering boards, margin boards and king planks which are much wider.
                    > If you are going to use epoxy degrease the teak well with acetone, do you want a glued scarph though? You could put a sikaflex join in so it's easier to replace a section later if it gets damaged.
                    > Good luck
                    > Frank.
                    >
                    >
                    I tried to bend around my hull. Using CAD software, I calculated a bend radius of 270 to 280 inches. The teak I bent was 1 inch thick and 3-1/2 inches wide. There was a milled heel on the bottom to control the lay-up along the hull edge. Using clamps and block & tackle I progressively attached it every 8 inches using 4 inch long C-Sunk wood screws. My observation was that I applied huge loads in order to make the bend. This was totally successful EXCEPT - A week later we went to the boat to cruise with friends. The new rail had exploded outward in two places, shattering the teak into toothpicks. 800 bucks worth of teak - gone.

                    You may be able to bend a large radius with a narrow width. As I noted earlier, I gave up and cut the curved sections out of wide boards about 6 to 8 feet long and overlap-joined the ends. This is totally successful and also adds no stresses to the hull. If a piece is wrecked, it can be easily replaced.


                  • sidmcdonough@yahoo.com
                    Sent from my iPad
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jan 5, 2013
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                      Sent from my iPad

                      On Jan 5, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Graham Norbury <gnorbury@...> wrote:

                       

                      Using countersunk screws was also asking for trouble - they act like little splitting wedges under any appreciable load.  You'd have been better off counterboring the fastener holes and use a pan headed screws.  Chances are you installed bungs over the screw holes anyway, so the end result would have looked the same.

                      Graham


                      On 1/5/2013 12:11 PM, MarkH wrote:
                       



                      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi guys,
                      > Have to say I agree with Peter, there is no way you need to cut a toe rail out of solid, it will bend round easily as long as it is eased round gently. Also it does not need to be green timber to make it bend, think of a swept, laid deck, you use timber as dry as you can get it. The only bits on a laid deck that are cut out of solid are the covering boards, margin boards and king planks which are much wider.
                      > If you are going to use epoxy degrease the teak well with acetone, do you want a glued scarph though? You could put a sikaflex join in so it's easier to replace a section later if it gets damaged.
                      > Good luck
                      > Frank.
                      >
                      >
                      I tried to bend around my hull. Using CAD software, I calculated a bend radius of 270 to 280 inches. The teak I bent was 1 inch thick and 3-1/2 inches wide. There was a milled heel on the bottom to control the lay-up along the hull edge. Using clamps and block & tackle I progressively attached it every 8 inches using 4 inch long C-Sunk wood screws. My observation was that I applied huge loads in order to make the bend. This was totally successful EXCEPT - A week later we went to the boat to cruise with friends. The new rail had exploded outward in two places, shattering the teak into toothpicks. 800 bucks worth of teak - gone.

                      You may be able to bend a large radius with a narrow width. As I noted earlier, I gave up and cut the curved sections out of wide boards about 6 to 8 feet long and overlap-joined the ends. This is totally successful and also adds no stresses to the hull. If a piece is wrecked, it can be easily replaced.


                    • francis.howard@btinternet.com
                      Hi Mark, The 58 is a lovely boat, I used to work at C&N in the early nineties but never worked on the production boats. They had just stopped doing them and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jan 6, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Mark,
                        The 58 is a lovely boat, I used to work at C&N in the early nineties but never worked on the production boats. They had just stopped doing them and had moved over to large one offs and wooden boat restorations. I have kept working with and owning wooden boats, have just got a 35 which is my first foray into glass boats.
                        Frank

                        --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "MarkH" wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Francis Howard wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Yes you would struggle with a 3 1/2" wide teak capping, maybe I misunderstood, I thought the capping was off a Nic 35 which is obviously just bent around.
                        > >
                        > > Yours
                        > > Frank
                        > >
                        > > On 5 Jan 2013, at 17:11, "MarkH" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > Our boat is a Nicholson 58. The sales glossy is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/photos/album/797524578/pic/list
                        >
                        > Our boat is ROXY. There are several albums on this site showing projects.
                        >
                      • alveng
                        I have done a complete refit of my boat. It all depends on the boats condition. I would have checked the hull and deck condition. These things is hard to see,
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jan 8, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have done a complete refit of my boat.
                          It all depends on the boats condition. I would have checked the hull and deck condition. These things is hard to see, and will cost you a lot. I have done it, and is satisfyed. But it costs.
                          Check for moist in the balsa core (deck) andt the hull/deck joint. If this is okay, well then you can get far with 20000.
                          Engine, tiller, mast and rigging is easy to check.
                          The Nic35 is a strong build, and will give you wonderful time under sail.....
                          If you want more spesific details from my rebuild - please send me an email at torbjorn.alveng@... and you can have the spesifications.
                          I have replaced engine, replaced mast, rig and sails, rebuild deck and footlist, new fastenings for stayers and so on.......the boat is now in "mint condition" as we call it in Norway....


                          --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "ian611@..." wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi All,
                          >
                          > Can anyone advise me what the refit cost would be for a Nic 35? I know it's potentially "how long is a piece of string?" type question but would appreciate some advice.
                          > I'm looking at a couple of boats and the Nic 35 is top of my list. Would £20000 cut it?
                          >
                          > Thanks
                          >
                        • solon_mhor
                          I had a similar problem, of course the boat is only 40 years old. I bought a Bomar ocean series (think it is the cast alum 100 series with tinted lexan lens
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jan 11, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I had a similar problem, of course the boat is only 40 years old. I bought a Bomar ocean series (think it is the cast alum 100 series with tinted lexan lens and support bars under the lens)hatch that nearly fits the cutout for the Campa. To gain access tothe hatch bolts i took off the v-berth liner. I recall that i had to fill in the existing bolt holes with slow-cure expoxy strengthened with silica, clamp down the new hatch and then drill new bolt holes using the new hatch openings. finally, used the appropriate sealant. Not a difficult job if the liner comes off easily and if the bolts come out easily (you'll want to buy new bolts in any case). my Bomar came from a consignment shop so it was a small fraction of what they cost new.
                            Chip Yost
                            Solon Mhor, CN30, hull #23

                            --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, frank watt wrote:
                            >
                            > I am sure it will all have been worth it!
                            >  
                            > I have a much smaller problem to deal with - my forward hatch on my Nic 30 is cracked and leaking.
                            > Does anyone know how easy it is to replace and where I can get a replacement?
                            >  
                            > Fair winds to you all for 2013.
                            > Frank fae Scotland.
                            >
                          • Gary Noble
                            hi Chip and Frank, Access is fairly straight forward just a lot of fussing with the line. Fortunately the forward hatch is still serviceable but I have had to
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jan 13, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              hi Chip and Frank,
                              Access is fairly straight forward just a lot of fussing with the line. Fortunately the forward hatch is still serviceable but I have had to remove the line in other places to get a leak or add replacement fittings. Chip, great deal on the Bomar hatch!
                              All the best to both of you in 2013.
                              Cheers Gary Noble CN 30 Whakarra

                              From: solon_mhor <solon_mhor@...>
                              To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 11:42:12 AM
                              Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                               
                              I had a similar problem, of course the boat is only 40 years old. I bought a Bomar ocean series (think it is the cast alum 100 series with tinted lexan lens and support bars under the lens)hatch that nearly fits the cutout for the Campa. To gain access tothe hatch bolts i took off the v-berth liner. I recall that i had to fill in the existing bolt holes with slow-cure expoxy strengthened with silica, clamp down the new hatch and then drill new bolt holes using the new hatch openings. finally, used the appropriate sealant. Not a difficult job if the liner comes off easily and if the bolts come out easily (you'll want to buy new bolts in any case). my Bomar came from a consignment shop so it was a small fraction of what they cost new.
                              Chip Yost
                              Solon Mhor, CN30, hull #23

                              --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, frank watt wrote:
                              >
                              > I am sure it will all have been worth it!
                              >  
                              > I have a much smaller problem to deal with - my forward hatch on my Nic 30 is cracked and leaking.
                              > Does anyone know how easy it is to replace and where I can get a replacement?
                              >  
                              > Fair winds to you all for 2013.
                              > Frank fae Scotland.
                              >

                            • b_a_t_e_a_u
                              I am about 90% complete of a complete rebuild of a 1977 Nic 35. To list just some of the tasks I have done so far, remove underwater gelcoat and barrier coat
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jan 15, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I am about 90% complete of a complete rebuild of a 1977 Nic 35. To list just some of the tasks I have done so far, remove underwater gelcoat and barrier coat the hull with West System Epoxy, all new Blakes sea cocks, rebuild the rudder, removed every deck fitting and under-bored every entry and fill with epoxy (+micro-ballons), awlgrip spray job for deck and hull, new teak toe rails, cabin top rails, new full teak cockpit, new SS bow roller for delta anchor, re-chrome lite frames and re-bed glass lites, re-bed all deck hardware, awlgrip original mast, re-rig, new mast electronics, new SS rear frame and pushpit with a custom hard bimini with 200W flexi solar panels over, new SS swim platform and teak platform, all new electrics, new interior woodwork by rebuilding the chart table to take 600 Ah batteries in base, new electrics console and wiring, new galley with a custom GRP fridge and freezer, new cooker, all new LED lights in and out, new walnut salon table with storage base for 20 bottles of wine, refaced all bulkheads as panelled walnut, timber trim and cabinetwork and woodwork using all American black walnut, new head linings and unfortunately much much more.

                                Its getting a bit boring describing all I have done now but basically it is a new boat. I did not do this to resell just in case you were wondering. I hope it lasts me another 20-30 years after this work as I did this not to sit in a marina or motor in the Med. Just in case you were wondering I did this work all myself so I am a bit experienced now. My original trade was a staircase maker so woodwork is my thing. My father was a wooden boat builder and I wanted to build a boat. In hind sight I think building would have been simpler as when you rebuild it is difficult to know where to stop.

                                The boat I started with was in poor condition the deck was dry, the engine had been rebuilt. The galley came out because I wanted a fridge freezer. My wife is not a keen sailer but a keen traveller so I needed to bribe her to come aboard and G&T without ice does not work. She likes the destinations but not the journey so I have a boat that is easy to single hand, is a good sea boat, classic and timeless. I installed powerful and self sustaining electrics for comfort. The old Nic ice box and galley was a full GRP moulded install and to modify it all has to come out hence the new galley to get the fridge freezer. I wanted to find a way to get 600Ah of battery so the chart table was rebuilt to hold a pair of Rolls deep cycles, the v-berth head linings were coming down so rebuild the v-berth with all the comforts of a boudoir, 12V LED TV in the anchor locker door, cupboards, reading lights (LED) etc. The heads only needed repainting but we now needed a black water tank and wether we like it or not we will face black and grey water tanks so get ready, so I am now ready. My Nic did not have a hatch in the salon and I wanted that so in the process the head linings had to be redone. When you peel it all back you find the crappy job previous owners have done, the leaks and the rot and you have to fix it all up. When doing the lite frames you re-bed the glass to solve the lite leaks and when you do you will probably find the need to fix up the woodwork (rot) and add new vinyl linings that roll under the lites. Big job. When you rerig you take a close look at the chainplates and you go, they are full of hairline cracks so I best replace now and to get them out you have to remove your internal salon cupboards. You then stand back say I may as well rebuild all the woodwork now and then that is it all. Before you know it, it is a new boat and you dont want to see the receipts of find a calculator. This leads to that and before you know it where do you stop.

                                But I have a beautiful basically new boat!!!

                                My problem is I am a perfectionist and I am my own most difficult customer. Needless to say it cost a bomb. In the middle of the Pacific if I have trouble I should know what to do and I will be able to improvise (jury rig) anything on the boat 'cause I did it. I will post photos some day. This has taken 4 years of my life. Actually I enjoyed the whole thing but dont tell my wife.

                                Graham

                                --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "alveng" wrote:
                                >
                                > I have done a complete refit of my boat.
                                > It all depends on the boats condition. I would have checked the hull and deck condition. These things is hard to see, and will cost you a lot. I have done it, and is satisfyed. But it costs.
                                > Check for moist in the balsa core (deck) andt the hull/deck joint. If this is okay, well then you can get far with 20000.
                                > Engine, tiller, mast and rigging is easy to check.
                                > The Nic35 is a strong build, and will give you wonderful time under sail.....
                                > If you want more spesific details from my rebuild - please send me an email at torbjorn.alveng@... and you can have the spesifications.
                                > I have replaced engine, replaced mast, rig and sails, rebuild deck and footlist, new fastenings for stayers and so on.......the boat is now in "mint condition" as we call it in Norway....
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "ian611@" wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi All,
                                > >
                                > > Can anyone advise me what the refit cost would be for a Nic 35? I know it's potentially "how long is a piece of string?" type question but would appreciate some advice.
                                > > I'm looking at a couple of boats and the Nic 35 is top of my list. Would £20000 cut it?
                                > >
                                > > Thanks
                                > >
                                >
                              • b_a_t_e_a_u
                                I redid mine Jim and the only difficult part is the stern piece as the curve and roll may require you to laminate it from thinner sticks as I did. There was
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jan 15, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I redid mine Jim and the only difficult part is the stern piece as the curve and roll may require you to laminate it from thinner sticks as I did. There was one whole day to make that piece up. I laminated it up in-situ on the stern with 50,000 clamps bending 3 thinner pieces of wood and lots of west epoxy. When I took it off 3 days latter and planned it up by hand, you had to look really hard to see it is not one piece of wood. You may get away with not laminating if you bend it from very thin wood but I redid my toe rails with 50 x 25 finished teak which is heavier than standard and offered no flex. By the way a steam box does not work on teak just in case you haven't tried.

                                  As a matter of interest rather than housing the toe rail over the hull deck seal I bedded it flat onto a thick coat of Sika 298 which is the brown wood glue used to stick down teak deck. It acts as both a sealant and adhesive. I made the toe rails up into a single length for each side by end joining using a finger joint cutter on a router. The finger joint increases the size of the glue line and improves hold with a mix of mechanical and glue holding power. I the bored 15mm holes 10mm deep for plugs using a forstner bit. Bought a plug cutter that made plugs to match the 15mm holes and made the plugs from offcuts. We set the toe rail on with screws at 450mm centres, starting from the bow with a rope slowly pulling the rail inwards.

                                  You have to watch that you don't wedge the hull deck joint apart when you use big screws down from the toe rail. When hit the first 5 threads of each screw on a grinder to put a flat on one side of each screw. Using a screw gun we put them in by going back wards and forwards with the screw to cause it to cut a thread into the pilot hole we drilled and hence not wedge.

                                  Pretty happy with the job. Decided to not do brightwork over the teak even though I would like to show off the job. The rails are now going teak grey. Getting them off in the future may be a problem with the adhesive but I don't want leaks. Make sure you have no cracks in the hull to deck joint when you redo as you may need to fix that in the whole job.

                                  Graham

                                  --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Mark,
                                  > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.
                                  > Regards
                                  > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68
                                  >
                                  > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: tornado186@...
                                  > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000
                                  > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > > There's an applciable refrain in the song "Adicted to Love" --
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > > "She's so fine, there's no tellin' where the money went . . ."
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We have been working on our 1984 C&N 58 ketch for 7 years now. It was damaged in Hurricane IVAN while docked at the PO's in Lauderdale. It also suffered a lot of deferred maintenance. We are over 100 kilobucks now. Work included a bottom peel DIY and all new fairing; new CB; DIY new rudder; new stanchions; new Awl Grip from water line to rails; new rails; new #1 jib; repair old sails; masts srtipped and repainted; new electronics; new navionics; replace all IC lights with LED; 2 new battery banks; new charge controllers; new solar aray; regalvanized chain; new anchor; new-to-us rib & motor; rebuild all hatches; rebuild soggy decks; rebuild CB lift mechanism; install holding tank; install new complsting head; empty and clean all diesel tanks; new diesel tank piping system; new main battery box.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > These are just the big ones. We are also adding stuff for serious cruising like dive equipment. As the song notes, "no tellin where it went" except I have a 10-page Excel sheet with details of every sheet of sandpaper.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > THe good news for you is that it costs a lot less for a smaller boat.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > BTW - we are having a blast on this boat. We are cruising Lake Michigan for now and will retire and get the heck out of Dodge in two years.
                                  >
                                • Peter Jørgensen
                                  Hi Graham Lot of hard work you´d done.... Hope you got the same satisfaction by doing the work as to enjoy this beautyfull boat after al the work. When i
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jan 16, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Graham
                                    Lot of hard work you´d done.... Hope you got the same satisfaction by doing the work as to enjoy this beautyfull boat after al the work.
                                    When i had done some work on Addiena i can just sit back and enjoy it for hours and hours....wonderfull 
                                    Hope that you would share some photos of your big project.
                                     
                                    Peter    

                                    From: b_a_t_e_a_u <graham.horne@...>
                                    To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:31 AM
                                    Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                     
                                    I redid mine Jim and the only difficult part is the stern piece as the curve and roll may require you to laminate it from thinner sticks as I did. There was one whole day to make that piece up. I laminated it up in-situ on the stern with 50,000 clamps bending 3 thinner pieces of wood and lots of west epoxy. When I took it off 3 days latter and planned it up by hand, you had to look really hard to see it is not one piece of wood. You may get away with not laminating if you bend it from very thin wood but I redid my toe rails with 50 x 25 finished teak which is heavier than standard and offered no flex. By the way a steam box does not work on teak just in case you haven't tried.

                                    As a matter of interest rather than housing the toe rail over the hull deck seal I bedded it flat onto a thick coat of Sika 298 which is the brown wood glue used to stick down teak deck. It acts as both a sealant and adhesive. I made the toe rails up into a single length for each side by end joining using a finger joint cutter on a router. The finger joint increases the size of the glue line and improves hold with a mix of mechanical and glue holding power. I the bored 15mm holes 10mm deep for plugs using a forstner bit. Bought a plug cutter that made plugs to match the 15mm holes and made the plugs from offcuts. We set the toe rail on with screws at 450mm centres, starting from the bow with a rope slowly pulling the rail inwards.

                                    You have to watch that you don't wedge the hull deck joint apart when you use big screws down from the toe rail. When hit the first 5 threads of each screw on a grinder to put a flat on one side of each screw. Using a screw gun we put them in by going back wards and forwards with the screw to cause it to cut a thread into the pilot hole we drilled and hence not wedge.

                                    Pretty happy with the job. Decided to not do brightwork over the teak even though I would like to show off the job. The rails are now going teak grey. Getting them off in the future may be a problem with the adhesive but I don't want leaks. Make sure you have no cracks in the hull to deck joint when you redo as you may need to fix that in the whole job.

                                    Graham

                                    --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Mark,
                                    > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it.
                                    > Regards
                                    > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68
                                    >
                                    > To: mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: tornado186@...
                                    > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000
                                    > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > There's an applciable refrain in the song "Adicted to Love" --
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > "She's so fine, there's no tellin' where the money went . . ."
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We have been working on our 1984 C&N 58 ketch for 7 years now. It was damaged in Hurricane IVAN while docked at the PO's in Lauderdale. It also suffered a lot of deferred maintenance. We are over 100 kilobucks now. Work included a bottom peel DIY and all new fairing; new CB; DIY new rudder; new stanchions; new Awl Grip from water line to rails; new rails; new #1 jib; repair old sails; masts srtipped and repainted; new electronics; new navionics; replace all IC lights with LED; 2 new battery banks; new charge controllers; new solar aray; regalvanized chain; new anchor; new-to-us rib & motor; rebuild all hatches; rebuild soggy decks; rebuild CB lift mechanism; install holding tank; install new complsting head; empty and clean all diesel tanks; new diesel tank piping system; new main battery box.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > These are just the big ones. We are also adding stuff for serious cruising like dive equipment. As the song notes, "no tellin where it went" except I have a 10-page Excel sheet with details of every sheet of sandpaper.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > THe good news for you is that it costs a lot less for a smaller boat.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > BTW - we are having a blast on this boat. We are cruising Lake Michigan for now and will retire and get the heck out of Dodge in two years.
                                    >

                                  • Peter Jørgensen
                                    ....... just a little reminder. Addiena is still for sale   Peter ________________________________ From: Peter Jørgensen To:
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 2, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      ....... just a little reminder. Addiena is still for sale*;) winking
                                       
                                      Peter

                                      From: Peter Jørgensen <peterschoett@...>
                                      To: "campernicholson@yahoogroups.com" <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:50 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                       
                                      Hi Graham
                                      Lot of hard work you´d done.... Hope you got the same satisfaction by doing the work as to enjoy this beautyfull boat after al the work.
                                      When i had done some work on Addiena i can just sit back and enjoy it for hours and hours....wonderfull 
                                      Hope that you would share some photos of your big project.
                                       
                                      Peter    

                                      From: b_a_t_e_a_u <graham.horne@...>
                                      To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:31 AM
                                      Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                       
                                      I redid mine Jim and the only difficult part is the stern piece as the curve and roll may require you to laminate it from thinner sticks as I did. There was one whole day to make that piece up. I laminated it up in-situ on the stern with 50,000 clamps bending 3 thinner pieces of wood and lots of west epoxy. When I took it off 3 days latter and planned it up by hand, you had to look really hard to see it is not one piece of wood. You may get away with not laminating if you bend it from very thin wood but I redid my toe rails with 50 x 25 finished teak which is heavier than standard and offered no flex. By the way a steam box does not work on teak just in case you haven't tried. As a matter of interest rather than housing the toe rail over the hull deck seal I bedded it flat onto a thick coat of Sika 298 which is the brown wood glue used to stick down teak deck. It acts as both a sealant and adhesive. I made the toe rails up into a single length for each side by end joining using a finger joint cutter on a router. The finger joint increases the size of the glue line and improves hold with a mix of mechanical and glue holding power. I the bored 15mm holes 10mm deep for plugs using a forstner bit. Bought a plug cutter that made plugs to match the 15mm holes and made the plugs from offcuts. We set the toe rail on with screws at 450mm centres, starting from the bow with a rope slowly pulling the rail inwards. You have to watch that you don't wedge the hull deck joint apart when you use big screws down from the toe rail. When hit the first 5 threads of each screw on a grinder to put a flat on one side of each screw. Using a screw gun we put them in by going back wards and forwards with the screw to cause it to cut a thread into the pilot hole we drilled and hence not wedge. Pretty happy with the job. Decided to not do brightwork over the teak even though I would like to show off the job. The rails are now going teak grey. Getting them off in the future may be a problem with the adhesive but I don't want leaks. Make sure you have no cracks in the hull to deck joint when you redo as you may need to fix that in the whole job. Graham
                                      --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mark, > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it. > Regards > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68 > > To: mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com > From: tornado186@... > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000 > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an applciable refrain in the song "Adicted to Love" -- > > > > > > "She's so fine, there's no tellin' where the money went . . ." > > > > > > > We have been working on our 1984 C&N 58 ketch for 7 years now. It was damaged in Hurricane IVAN while docked at the PO's in Lauderdale. It also suffered a lot of deferred maintenance. We are over 100 kilobucks now. Work included a bottom peel DIY and all new fairing; new CB; DIY new rudder; new stanchions; new Awl Grip from water line to rails; new rails; new #1 jib; repair old sails; masts srtipped and repainted; new electronics; new navionics; replace all IC lights with LED; 2 new battery banks; new charge controllers; new solar aray; regalvanized chain; new anchor; new-to-us rib & motor; rebuild all hatches; rebuild soggy decks; rebuild CB lift mechanism; install holding tank; install new complsting head; empty and clean all diesel tanks; new diesel tank piping system; new main battery box. > > > > These are just the big ones. We are also adding stuff for serious cruising like dive equipment. As the song notes, "no tellin where it went" except I have a 10-page Excel sheet with details of every sheet of sandpaper. > > > > THe good news for you is that it costs a lot less for a smaller boat. > > > > BTW - we are having a blast on this boat. We are cruising Lake Michigan for now and will retire and get the heck out of Dodge in two years. >
                                    • IAN ADAMS
                                      Peter,   I d appreciate if you could send me some more photos if you have them, she looks in lovely condition.   Thanks,   Ian From: Peter Jørgensen
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 3, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Peter,
                                         
                                        I'd appreciate if you could send me some more photos if you have them, she looks in lovely condition.
                                         
                                        Thanks,
                                         
                                        Ian

                                        From: Peter Jørgensen <peterschoett@...>
                                        To: "campernicholson@yahoogroups.com" <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 5:37
                                        Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                         
                                        ....... just a little reminder. Addiena is still for sale*;) winking
                                         
                                        Peter

                                        From: Peter Jørgensen <peterschoett@...>
                                        To: "campernicholson@yahoogroups.com" <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:50 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                         
                                        Hi Graham
                                        Lot of hard work you´d done.... Hope you got the same satisfaction by doing the work as to enjoy this beautyfull boat after al the work.
                                        When i had done some work on Addiena i can just sit back and enjoy it for hours and hours....wonderfull 
                                        Hope that you would share some photos of your big project.
                                         
                                        Peter    

                                        From: b_a_t_e_a_u <graham.horne@...>
                                        To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:31 AM
                                        Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs
                                         
                                        I redid mine Jim and the only difficult part is the stern piece as the curve and roll may require you to laminate it from thinner sticks as I did. There was one whole day to make that piece up. I laminated it up in-situ on the stern with 50,000 clamps bending 3 thinner pieces of wood and lots of west epoxy. When I took it off 3 days latter and planned it up by hand, you had to look really hard to see it is not one piece of wood. You may get away with not laminating if you bend it from very thin wood but I redid my toe rails with 50 x 25 finished teak which is heavier than standard and offered no flex. By the way a steam box does not work on teak just in case you haven't tried. As a matter of interest rather than housing the toe rail over the hull deck seal I bedded it flat onto a thick coat of Sika 298 which is the brown wood glue used to stick down teak deck. It acts as both a sealant and adhesive. I made the toe rails up into a single length for each side by end joining using a finger joint cutter on a router. The finger joint increases the size of the glue line and improves hold with a mix of mechanical and glue holding power. I the bored 15mm holes 10mm deep for plugs using a forstner bit. Bought a plug cutter that made plugs to match the 15mm holes and made the plugs from offcuts. We set the toe rail on with screws at 450mm centres, starting from the bow with a rope slowly pulling the rail inwards. You have to watch that you don't wedge the hull deck joint apart when you use big screws down from the toe rail. When hit the first 5 threads of each screw on a grinder to put a flat on one side of each screw. Using a screw gun we put them in by going back wards and forwards with the screw to cause it to cut a thread into the pilot hole we drilled and hence not wedge. Pretty happy with the job. Decided to not do brightwork over the teak even though I would like to show off the job. The rails are now going teak grey. Getting them off in the future may be a problem with the adhesive but I don't want leaks. Make sure you have no cracks in the hull to deck joint when you redo as you may need to fix that in the whole job. Graham --- In mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com, JIM TEIPEN wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mark, > I noticed that you mentioned new toe rails in your list of boat projects. I've been considering replacing the toe rails on my 35. I'm wondering if you did this yourself and if you would share some details of how you accomplished it. > Regards > Jim TeipenAlegriaCN 35 - 68 > > To: mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com > From: tornado186@... > Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 20:38:02 +0000 > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Refit Costs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's an applciable refrain in the song "Adicted to Love" -- > > > > > > "She's so fine, there's no tellin' where the money went . . ." > > > > > > > We have been working on our 1984 C&N 58 ketch for 7 years now. It was damaged in Hurricane IVAN while docked at the PO's in Lauderdale. It also suffered a lot of deferred maintenance. We are over 100 kilobucks now. Work included a bottom peel DIY and all new fairing; new CB; DIY new rudder; new stanchions; new Awl Grip from water line to rails; new rails; new #1 jib; repair old sails; masts srtipped and repainted; new electronics; new navionics; replace all IC lights with LED; 2 new battery banks; new charge controllers; new solar aray; regalvanized chain; new anchor; new-to-us rib & motor; rebuild all hatches; rebuild soggy decks; rebuild CB lift mechanism; install holding tank; install new complsting head; empty and clean all diesel tanks; new diesel tank piping system; new main battery box. > > > > These are just the big ones. We are also adding stuff for serious cruising like dive equipment. As the song notes, "no tellin where it went" except I have a 10-page Excel sheet with details of every sheet of sandpaper. > > > > THe good news for you is that it costs a lot less for a smaller boat. > > > > BTW - we are having a blast on this boat. We are cruising Lake Michigan for now and will retire and get the heck out of Dodge in two years. >
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