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Inner Forestay

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  • wispcb
    Howdy, Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I ve been sailing our CN35(141) Wisp for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I
    Message 1 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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      Howdy,
      Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I've been sailing our CN35(141) 'Wisp' for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I sometimes miss the flexibility an inner stay can provide. My previous boat was cutter rigged and it was sure nice to drop the jib, raise the staysail, (reefed main) and have everything inboard. The boat still sails well (great) with either my 'heavy' jib or storm jib, but a small headsail, well inboard, moves all effort (mine and the winds) closer to the middle (safer) part of the vessel.

      Thanks for any info provided.

      Rick, CN35 'Wisp'
    • Denece
      Several boats have placed removable forestay for a slutter rig when desired. Ours ( hull 163) is attached just forward of the windlass. The stay is attached
      Message 2 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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        Several boats have placed removable forestay for a 'slutter' rig when desired.  Ours  ( hull 163) is attached just forward of the windlass. The stay is attached to the mast about three feet from the top and ties off to the forward lower when not in use. The adjuster is on a pendant that makes up the additional length required. No babystay or running backs required. We placed a large reinforcing panel belowdecks but it is not tabbed to the hull. There is no deflection of the deck when tightened as hard as we can get it.

        Other folks have done different things, as you will no doubt hear. You can also search the archives for reports reaching back almost to the start of this list in 1991.  You have struck on a common topic for discussion!

        Best of Luck

        Denece


        -----Original Message-----
        From: wispcb
        Sent: May 31, 2010 11:25 AM
        To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay

         

        Howdy,
        Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I've been sailing our CN35(141) 'Wisp' for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I sometimes miss the flexibility an inner stay can provide. My previous boat was cutter rigged and it was sure nice to drop the jib, raise the staysail, (reefed main) and have everything inboard. The boat still sails well (great) with either my 'heavy' jib or storm jib, but a small headsail, well inboard, moves all effort (mine and the winds) closer to the middle (safer) part of the vessel.

        Thanks for any info provided.

        Rick, CN35 'Wisp'

      • john crosby
        Dear Rick, I had a removable inner forestay fitted on my CN35 last Spring. Boreas J (hull 178) is based in Lisbon and I was quite often having to beat upwind
        Message 3 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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          Dear Rick,

          I had a removable inner forestay fitted on my CN35 last Spring. Boreas J (hull 178) is based in Lisbon and I was quite often having to beat upwind in 30-35 kts apparent as the prevailing wind is normally NNW/NW in the Summer and I found it was hard work (and not very efficient) tying to get north with rolls in the furling genoa and reefed main. Having the inner stay, on which I fit the original No. 2 Jib, and with 2 reefs in the main has made a big difference. I have 'comfortably' (relatively speaking!) made progress north with the wind at 40-45 kts apparent on quite a few occasions.

          The rigger installed a T terminal backing plate into the mast for the inner forestay, which was easier than a nose tang. It's about 30cm from the top thus negating the need for running backstays. The bottom, when in use, attaches to the same stem fitting used by the normal forestay, by means of shackle and a Wichard babystay/forestay adjuster. He also fitted an additional in-mast halyard for dedicated use with the inner stay; he advised the spinnaker halyard probably could work, but there is always that feeling that it could catch on the forestay/furled genoa, probably just when you desperately don't want it to!

          regards, John



          From: Denece <bluepearl@...>
          To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com; campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, 31 May, 2010 18:03:52
          Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay

           

          Several boats have placed removable forestay for a 'slutter' rig when desired.  Ours  ( hull 163) is attached just forward of the windlass. The stay is attached to the mast about three feet from the top and ties off to the forward lower when not in use. The adjuster is on a pendant that makes up the additional length required. No babystay or running backs required. We placed a large reinforcing panel belowdecks but it is not tabbed to the hull. There is no deflection of the deck when tightened as hard as we can get it.

          Other folks have done different things, as you will no doubt hear. You can also search the archives for reports reaching back almost to the start of this list in 1991.  You have struck on a common topic for discussion!

          Best of Luck

          Denece


          -----Original Message-----
          From: wispcb
          Sent: May 31, 2010 11:25 AM
          To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay

           

          Howdy,
          Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I've been sailing our CN35(141) 'Wisp' for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I sometimes miss the flexibility an inner stay can provide. My previous boat was cutter rigged and it was sure nice to drop the jib, raise the staysail, (reefed main) and have everything inboard. The boat still sails well (great) with either my 'heavy' jib or storm jib, but a small headsail, well inboard, moves all effort (mine and the winds) closer to the middle (safer) part of the vessel.

          Thanks for any info provided.

          Rick, CN35 'Wisp'


        • Graham Norbury
          Rick, Our CN35 (#220) came from the factory rigged for a solent stay. There was a pad eye on deck just forward of the windlass, and two extra halyards , one
          Message 4 of 18 , May 31, 2010
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            Rick,

            Our CN35 (#220) came from the factory rigged for a solent stay.  There was a pad eye on deck just forward of the windlass, and two extra "halyards", one of which served as a removable stay and one as the halyard.  We only used it for a hanked-on storm jib in >28kt conditions, but it performed pretty well considering it wasn't technically as robust as a conventional inner forestay.

            Graham

            On 5/31/2010 11:25 AM, wispcb wrote:
             

            Howdy,
            Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I've been sailing our CN35(141) 'Wisp' for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I sometimes miss the flexibility an inner stay can provide. My previous boat was cutter rigged and it was sure nice to drop the jib, raise the staysail, (reefed main) and have everything inboard. The boat still sails well (great) with either my 'heavy' jib or storm jib, but a small headsail, well inboard, moves all effort (mine and the winds) closer to the middle (safer) part of the vessel.

            Thanks for any info provided.

            Rick, CN35 'Wisp'

          • tom1us2001a
            Rick, I came across the following article once, thought it may be of interest to you.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 1, 2010
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              Rick,

              I came across the following article once, thought it may be of interest to you.


              http://www.oceannavigator.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=CF69AFCD59A94E28B273F7E55701A345

              Tom
              CN35-199 Dream


              --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "wispcb" <wisp03@...> wrote:
              >
              > Howdy,
              > Has anyone installed an inner forestay on their CN35? I've been sailing our CN35(141) 'Wisp' for many (20+) years and in blustery conditions I sometimes miss the flexibility an inner stay can provide. My previous boat was cutter rigged and it was sure nice to drop the jib, raise the staysail, (reefed main) and have everything inboard. The boat still sails well (great) with either my 'heavy' jib or storm jib, but a small headsail, well inboard, moves all effort (mine and the winds) closer to the middle (safer) part of the vessel.
              >
              > Thanks for any info provided.
              >
              > Rick, CN35 'Wisp'
              >
            • Rick
              Howdy, Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ? Thanks for any info. Rick Nic35 141 Wisp
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 22, 2011
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                Howdy,
                Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ?
                Thanks for any info.
                Rick
                Nic35 141 'Wisp'
              • john crosby
                Yes, I did about 2 years ago - and I m very pleased I did. What info would you like? regards John, Boreas J, Hull No. 178 ________________________________
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 22, 2011
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                  Yes, I did about 2 years ago - and I'm very pleased I did. What info would you like? regards John, Boreas J, Hull No. 178


                  From: Rick <wisp03@...>
                  To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 21:10
                  Subject: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay

                   
                  Howdy,
                  Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ?
                  Thanks for any info.
                  Rick
                  Nic35 141 'Wisp'



                • Graham Norbury
                  Rick, A solent stay was part of the original design for many Nic35 s. Typically it was implemented with the second masthead wire-to-rope halyard being brought
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 22, 2011
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                    Rick,

                    A solent stay was part of the original design for many Nic35's.  Typically it was implemented with the second masthead wire-to-rope halyard being brought down to the aft end of the stem-head fitting behind the furler, and the (third) not-quite-masthead halyard being used to hoist the sail.  Add a hank-on a storm jib and away you go.

                    Now arguably this doesn't move the center of effort rearwards like a real inner forestay, but it has the significant benefit of not requiring a reinforced pad eye, tie rod through the middle of the v-berth, or running backstays.

                    From personal experience I can say it worked quite well on the limited number of times we needed it, which is to say while we were offshore with sustained winds in excess of 35kts.

                    Graham

                    On 06/22/2011 3:10 PM, Rick wrote:
                     

                    Howdy,
                    Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ?
                    Thanks for any info.
                    Rick
                    Nic35 141 'Wisp'

                  • Rick
                    John, Thanks for responding. There s several things I like to know about your installion. Where did you locate the deck fitting Where did you locate the mast
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 23, 2011
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                      John,
                      Thanks for responding. There's several things I like to know about your installion.

                      Where did you locate the deck fitting
                      Where did you locate the mast fitting
                      Did you add running backstays
                      Did you add a tie rod below deck
                      Did you add additional winches
                      Where did you locate any tracks for sheeting
                      Did you use some type of quick release at the deck fitting
                      And,,,any others advice you might have.

                      I had a Cape Dory 30 Cutter before the Nic and always enjoyed the flexibility of the rig. I still have hank on sails, which makes that additional sail even more appealling.

                      Thanks again for your input.

                      Rick


                      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, john crosby <john57crosby@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, I did about 2 years ago - and I'm very pleased I did. What info would you like? regards John, Boreas J, Hull No. 178
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Rick <wisp03@...>
                      > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 21:10
                      > Subject: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Howdy,
                      > Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ?
                      > Thanks for any info.
                      > Rick
                      > Nic35 141 'Wisp'
                      >
                    • john crosby
                      Dear Rick, I just realised I didn t make clear that mine is a removable inner stay - I just presumed that was what you thinking of adding. With that in mind,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 23, 2011
                      Dear Rick,

                      I just realised I didn't make clear that mine is a removable inner stay - I just presumed that was what you thinking of adding. With that in mind, to answer your questions:

                      - location of the deck fitting: like Graham, I use the aft hole on the stem-head fitting, fitting a high load shackle through it when needed and to which I connect the adjuster;
                      - location of the mast fitting: the inner stay is connected about 6in below the top, with the opening (ie sheave box) for the dedicated halyard about 6 inches further below, see attached photo (sorry don't know how to add it to our yahoo group). The inner stay is connected with T terminal backing plate into the mast which, according the professional rigger that did the job, is easier than a nose tang;
                      - running backstays: no, I didn't add any. The rigger said they weren't needed as long as the inner stay was attached within a certain distance of the top (which it is);,
                      - tie rod below deck: no I didn't add one - again the riger said this wasn't necessary as the deck fitting is so close to the fitting of the normal stay;
                      - additional winches: no, I use the normal for the sheets and the winch on the port side of mast (hence, if you intend to fit a dedicated halyard and it's feed is inside the mast, I suggest you should make sure it exits on the port side of the mast);
                      tracks for sheeting: I use the normal foresail track, which seems fine for the No.2 jib which is what I use most often in this step up. As you probably know, there are dedicated points on the deck each sidse in which to screw in an upright O ring (don't know how else to describe it), through which to run the sheets for the storm jib;
                      quick release at the deck fitting: I use a Wichard babystay/forestay adjuster, which still works great even thought its an older version with a nut adjustment rather than the handle, rachet or wheel adjuster available today. There are other adjuster makes as you are probably aware. I've marked the adjuster so I know how far to tighten it without always having to check, mindful that the backstay can also be adjusted to give more aft mast bend as necessary;
                      other info: the inner stay is 7mm; the spinnaker halyard probably could work, but there is always that feeling that it could catch on the forestay, when you desperately do not want it to.

                      regards John


                      From: Rick <wisp03@...>
                      To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, 23 June 2011, 13:34
                      Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Inner Forestay

                       
                      John,
                      Thanks for responding. There's several things I like to know about your installion.

                      Where did you locate the deck fitting
                      Where did you locate the mast fitting
                      Did you add running backstays
                      Did you add a tie rod below deck
                      Did you add additional winches
                      Where did you locate any tracks for sheeting
                      Did you use some type of quick release at the deck fitting
                      And,,,any others advice you might have.

                      I had a Cape Dory 30 Cutter before the Nic and always enjoyed the flexibility of the rig. I still have hank on sails, which makes that additional sail even more appealling.

                      Thanks again for your input.

                      Rick

                      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, john crosby <john57crosby@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, I did about 2 years ago - and I'm very pleased I did. What info would you like? regards John, Boreas J, Hull No. 178
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Rick <wisp03@...>
                      > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 21:10
                      > Subject: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Howdy,
                      > Has anyone added an inner forestay to their CN35 ?
                      > Thanks for any info.
                      > Rick
                      > Nic35 141 'Wisp'
                      >



                    • MARK HOENKE
                      Our Camper 58 is cutter rigged ketch. The inner stay is from the upper spreader parallel to the forestay so it lands about 8 feet aft of the stem fitting.
                      Message 11 of 18 , Jun 23, 2011
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                        Our Camper 58 is cutter rigged ketch.  The inner stay is from the upper spreader parallel to the forestay so it lands about 8 feet aft of the stem fitting.  There are running backs to port and starboard winches at the cockpit.  The inner stay is a roller furling ProFurl Clasic 42.  The inner jib is then a 2/3 hoist that fills the space to the mast. Below deck is a SS rod & turnbuckle to the keel to buck up the deck fitting.  The Genoa is unmanageable except to furl.  I am considering adding a solent rig or code zero or both to the aft end of the stem fitting to be operated with a spare jib halyard.  This will let us run a large drifter/reacher or a storm jib.

                      • Denece
                        WE also added an solent stay to Blue Pearl. It attaches to the mast about three feet from top and to deck right foreward of windlass. No running backs, no
                        Message 12 of 18 , Jun 24, 2011
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                          WE also added an solent stay to Blue Pearl. It attaches to the mast
                          about three feet from top and to deck right foreward of windlass. No
                          running backs, no tie-down. The rigger said we were bulletproof
                          (whatever that means) we have a johnson adjuster that clips on and the
                          stay when not used is lashed to foreward lower hairpin at deck.
                          That said, we are awaiting further news of a possibility of moving her
                          back to the SF area reasonably. Barring that we will have no choice but
                          to list her for sale.

                          Denece
                          Blue Pearl
                          #163
                        • Gary Noble
                          Hi Mark The inner forestay conversation is very interesting. On the CN 30 due to its racing genesis is just a stay positioned to allow the the mast to be
                          Message 13 of 18 , Jun 27, 2011
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                            Hi Mark
                            The inner forestay conversation is very interesting. On the CN 30 due to its racing genesis is just a stay positioned to allow the the mast to be bent by adjusting the back stay and the shape the somewhat tiny main.On the CN35s with the taller rigs one can see the stay would have other uses but not sure as I have only sailed on a 35 with the regular mast height.
                            Gary S?V Whakarra.

                            --- On Fri, 6/24/11, MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...> wrote:

                            From: MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...>
                            Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Friday, June 24, 2011, 3:00 AM

                             

                            Our Camper 58 is cutter rigged ketch.  The inner stay is from the upper spreader parallel to the forestay so it lands about 8 feet aft of the stem fitting.  There are running backs to port and starboard winches at the cockpit.  The inner stay is a roller furling ProFurl Clasic 42.  The inner jib is then a 2/3 hoist that fills the space to the mast. Below deck is a SS rod & turnbuckle to the keel to buck up the deck fitting.  The Genoa is unmanageable except to furl.  I am considering adding a solent rig or code zero or both to the aft end of the stem fitting to be operated with a spare jib halyard.  This will let us run a large drifter/reacher or a storm jib.

                          • Brian Stannard
                            A babystay is usually fitted in lieu of forward lowers. It is not a stay a sail is set on. ... -- Brian Living aboard in Victoria
                            Message 14 of 18 , Jun 28, 2011
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                              A babystay is usually fitted in lieu of forward lowers. It is not a stay a sail is set on. 

                              On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Gary Noble <noble.gary@...> wrote:
                               

                              Hi Mark
                              The inner forestay conversation is very interesting. On the CN 30 due to its racing genesis is just a stay positioned to allow the the mast to be bent by adjusting the back stay and the shape the somewhat tiny main.On the CN35s with the taller rigs one can see the stay would have other uses but not sure as I have only sailed on a 35 with the regular mast height.
                              Gary S?V Whakarra.

                              --- On Fri, 6/24/11, MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...> wrote:

                              From: MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...>
                              Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                              To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Friday, June 24, 2011, 3:00 AM

                               

                              Our Camper 58 is cutter rigged ketch.  The inner stay is from the upper spreader parallel to the forestay so it lands about 8 feet aft of the stem fitting.  There are running backs to port and starboard winches at the cockpit.  The inner stay is a roller furling ProFurl Clasic 42.  The inner jib is then a 2/3 hoist that fills the space to the mast. Below deck is a SS rod & turnbuckle to the keel to buck up the deck fitting.  The Genoa is unmanageable except to furl.  I am considering adding a solent rig or code zero or both to the aft end of the stem fitting to be operated with a spare jib halyard.  This will let us run a large drifter/reacher or a storm jib.




                              --
                              Brian
                              Living aboard in Victoria
                            • Gary Noble
                              Brian thanks for the feedback. Yes I had forgotten that detail. All the best Gary ... From: Brian Stannard Subject: Re:
                              Message 15 of 18 , Jun 28, 2011
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                                Brian thanks for the feedback. Yes I had forgotten that detail. All the best Gary

                                --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Brian Stannard <brianstannard@...> wrote:

                                From: Brian Stannard <brianstannard@...>
                                Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                                To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                Received: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 2:33 PM

                                 
                                A babystay is usually fitted in lieu of forward lowers. It is not a stay a sail is set on. 

                                On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:52 PM, Gary Noble <noble.gary@...> wrote:
                                 
                                Hi Mark
                                The inner forestay conversation is very interesting. On the CN 30 due to its racing genesis is just a stay positioned to allow the the mast to be bent by adjusting the back stay and the shape the somewhat tiny main.On the CN35s with the taller rigs one can see the stay would have other uses but not sure as I have only sailed on a 35 with the regular mast height.
                                Gary S?V Whakarra.

                                --- On Fri, 6/24/11, MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...> wrote:

                                From: MARK HOENKE <tornado186@...>
                                Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Inner Forestay
                                To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                                Received: Friday, June 24, 2011, 3:00 AM

                                 
                                Our Camper 58 is cutter rigged ketch.  The inner stay is from the upper spreader parallel to the forestay so it lands about 8 feet aft of the stem fitting.  There are running backs to port and starboard winches at the cockpit.  The inner stay is a roller furling ProFurl Clasic 42.  The inner jib is then a 2/3 hoist that fills the space to the mast. Below deck is a SS rod & turnbuckle to the keel to buck up the deck fitting.  The Genoa is unmanageable except to furl.  I am considering adding a solent rig or code zero or both to the aft end of the stem fitting to be operated with a spare jib halyard.  This will let us run a large drifter/reacher or a storm jib.



                                --
                                Brian
                                Living aboard in Victoria
                              • MarkH
                                Gary, We have both upper and lower spreaders. Our storm jib is set on the stay to the upper spreaders as I described. There is also a lower inside stay from
                                Message 16 of 18 , Jun 28, 2011
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                                  Gary,
                                  We have both upper and lower spreaders. Our storm jib is set on the stay to the upper spreaders as I described. There is also a lower inside stay from the lower spreaders to the deck. No sail here. This is a nice rig with lots of options. Both roller furlers have double tracks but that is sort of pointless without crew to change sails. The other thing about that is the jib weighs 140 kilo so it stays where it is. The only fault I can find is tacking the 135 (or any) genoa is not easy. The genoa is Yankee cut with very high clew and the thing hangs up on the cutter stay every time. In moderate winds I gybe so the wind can carry the clew forward. A solent rig would solve this for a boat that did not need the inside (cutter)) stay.
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