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Re: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity

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  • Jeffrey Moorman
    Gang, Here is a very informative page for these battery challenges http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm Jeff
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 11, 2008
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      Gang,

      Here is a very informative page for these battery challenges http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm


      Jeff

      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: minnehaha64 <russ.armstrong@...>
      > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity
      > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:16:33 -0000
      >
      >
      > Graham (Horne)
      >
      > As noted by Graham Norbury in his reply, 4 6-volt Trojan batteries
      > will fit in the space beneath the watch seat. 105 amp hours each, in
      > series, gives me 420ah total. I up-loaded a photo of the installation
      > of these batteries in Yankee, hull #99. As you can see, the fit is
      > very close. Not shown is a half-inch threaded rod which screws into a
      > threaded plate in the center of the bottom of the compartment. A
      > drilled block of wood, slightly larger than the square hole between
      > the batteries, is fitted over the rod; a nut is then tightened for the
      > hold-down. Because the batteries are such a tight fit, there's no
      > lateral movement; the single central hold-down suffices.
      >
      > It was necessary to remove the fiberglass catch pan at the bottom of
      > the compartment, along with some horizontal braces. I glassed in two
      > layers of cloth at the bottom of the compartment, overlapping up the
      > sides several inches, for strength and to serve as a catch pan.
      >
      > Enough room remains above the batteries for a small wooden panel
      > which holds the circuit breaker for the winch and the switch for the
      > bilge pump. That panel is not shown in the photo. Also not shown is
      > removable bracing for the watch seat itself.
      >
      > Russ Armstrong

      >
    • O. R. Armstrong
      Gang, I agree with Jeff. I checked the Trojan website. My error was that a 6-volt Trojan T-105 battery has a 20-hour rating of 225 amp hours (I had confused
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 11, 2008
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        Gang,

          I agree with Jeff. I checked the Trojan website. My error was that a 6-volt Trojan T-105 battery has a 20-hour rating of 225 amp hours (I had confused the model number with the amp hour rating). Connecting a pair of T-105s in series effectively creates one 12-volt battery with the same 225 amp hour rating. Connecting a pair of such series-connected T-105s in parallel gives 450 amp hours and 12 volts.

          Russ


        On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Jeffrey Moorman <jeff@...> wrote:

        Gang,

        Here is a very informative page for these battery challenges http://www.gizmology.net/batteries.htm

        Jeff



        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: minnehaha64 <russ.armstrong@...>
        > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity
        > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:16:33 -0000
        >
        >
        > Graham (Horne)
        >
        > As noted by Graham Norbury in his reply, 4 6-volt Trojan batteries
        > will fit in the space beneath the watch seat. 105 amp hours each, in
        > series, gives me 420ah total. I up-loaded a photo of the installation
        > of these batteries in Yankee, hull #99. As you can see, the fit is
        > very close. Not shown is a half-inch threaded rod which screws into a
        > threaded plate in the center of the bottom of the compartment. A
        > drilled block of wood, slightly larger than the square hole between
        > the batteries, is fitted over the rod; a nut is then tightened for the
        > hold-down. Because the batteries are such a tight fit, there's no
        > lateral movement; the single central hold-down suffices.
        >
        > It was necessary to remove the fiberglass catch pan at the bottom of
        > the compartment, along with some horizontal braces. I glassed in two
        > layers of cloth at the bottom of the compartment, overlapping up the
        > sides several inches, for strength and to serve as a catch pan.
        >
        > Enough room remains above the batteries for a small wooden panel
        > which holds the circuit breaker for the winch and the switch for the
        > bilge pump. That panel is not shown in the photo. Also not shown is
        > removable bracing for the watch seat itself.
        >
        > Russ Armstrong

        >


      • Graham Norbury
        Jeff, You are correct about batteries connected in series, however four golf-cart batteries does give you approximately 400AH capacity as each individual
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 11, 2008
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          Jeff,

          You are correct about batteries connected in series, however four golf-cart batteries does give you approximately 400AH capacity as each individual battery is rated close to 200AH.  On Luna Azul we used LifeLine batteries, so total capacity was closer to 440AH.  A nice advantage of AGM technology is that you don't need to devote extra space to acid containment trays.

          Graham

          Jeffrey Moorman wrote:

          Russ et al,

          I believe the result of connecting your 6v batteries in series leaves you with 105 ah hrs (the voltage is cumulative but the capacity remains the same). So your actual total capacity is 210 ah hrs.

          Jeff Moorman

          La Boheme

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: minnehaha64 <russ.armstrong@ gmail.com>
          > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
          > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity
          > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:16:33 -0000
          >
          >
          > Graham (Horne)
          >
          > As noted by Graham Norbury in his reply, 4 6-volt Trojan batteries
          > will fit in the space beneath the watch seat. 105 amp hours each, in
          > series, gives me 420ah total. I up-loaded a photo of the installation
          > of these batteries in Yankee, hull #99. As you can see, the fit is
          > very close. Not shown is a half-inch threaded rod which screws into a
          > threaded plate in the center of the bottom of the compartment. A
          > drilled block of wood, slightly larger than the square hole between
          > the batteries, is fitted over the rod; a nut is then tightened for the
          > hold-down. Because the batteries are such a tight fit, there's no
          > lateral movement; the single central hold-down suffices.
          >
          > It was necessary to remove the fiberglass catch pan at the bottom of
          > the compartment, along with some horizontal braces. I glassed in two
          > layers of cloth at the bottom of the compartment, overlapping up the
          > sides several inches, for strength and to serve as a catch pan.
          >
          > Enough room remains above the batteries for a small wooden panel
          > which holds the circuit breaker for the winch and the switch for the
          > bilge pump. That panel is not shown in the photo. Also not shown is
          > removable bracing for the watch seat itself.
          >
          > Russ Armstrong

          >


          No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.2/1782 - Release Date: 11/11/2008 7:32 PM
        • JOHN LARSON
          On Passport, our Nic 35, we have five 100 amp hour batteries. They are gel cels and for us that s important because of the way we cruise. We re on the boat
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 14, 2008
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            On Passport, our Nic 35, we have five 100 amp hour batteries.  They are gel cels and for us that's important because of the way we cruise.  We're on the boat for a period of two or three months and then a long way away from the boat the rest of the year.  The gel cels can sit unattended for extended periods without loosing much charge. At one point we were gone for over a year, and the batteries had over 12 volts of charge when we returned.
             
            Two of the batteries are in the usual place under the pilot seat on the port side of the companionway.  Three more are in the seat for the aft facing chart table.  It took not much modification to locate the three batteries there and there's still some space outboard of them.
             
            We bought our batteries about ten years ago and are now thinking about replacing them. Though they still are viable, they don't hold a charge like when new.  Our source for batteries is a local (Minneapolis) supplier of batteries to companies with fork lifts and other such equipment.  The price is or at least was, quite a bit lower than the normal marine sources.  The batteries were manufactured by a company called East Pen as I recall.  In any case, it was the same battery that Practical Sailor rated highly at that time.
             
            John  Larson
          • William E. Roesner
            John, Have you read the article in the latest issue of Blue Water Sailing re Mahina Tiares solution to an attempt to extend battery life in dry cell
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 14, 2008
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              John,
              Have you read the article in the latest issue of Blue Water Sailing re Mahina Tiares' solution to an attempt  to extend battery life in dry cell batteries? It seems by putting a severe and deep discharge into them, that that is  supposed to rejuvenate and restore life to them.  What do you think?
              Bill
              SV Blueprint
              NIC 31-113

              On Nov 14, 2008, at 4:34 PM, JOHN LARSON wrote:


              On Passport, our Nic 35, we have five 100 amp hour batteries.  They are gel cels and for us that's important because of the way we cruise.  We're on the boat for a period of two or three months and then a long way away from the boat the rest of the year.  The gel cels can sit unattended for extended periods without loosing much charge. At one point we were gone for over a year, and the batteries had over 12 volts of charge when we returned.
               
              Two of the batteries are in the usual place under the pilot seat on the port side of the companionway.  Three more are in the seat for the aft facing chart table.  It took not much modification to locate the three batteries there and there's still some space outboard of them.
               
              We bought our batteries about ten years ago and are now thinking about replacing them. Though they still are viable, they don't hold a charge like when new.  Our source for batteries is a local (Minneapolis) supplier of batteries to companies with fork lifts and other such equipment.  The price is or at least was, quite a bit lower than the normal marine sources.  The batteries were manufactured by a company called East Pen as I recall.  In any case, it was the same battery that Practical Sailor rated highly at that time.
               
              John  Larson


            • JOHN LARSON
              Bill I haven t seen the article. It would be good news if it works. Four of our batteries should be replaced sometime soon. The other one is for engine
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 15, 2008
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                Bill
                 
                I haven't seen the article.  It would be good news if it works.  Four of our batteries should be replaced sometime soon.  The other one is for engine starting and we never seem to remember to use it so it's like new.
                 
                I'll check it out and perhaps try it before buying new ones.  Do you know if what they wrote about referred to gel cells?
                 
                John
                S/V Passport
                Nic 35-85
              • Dennis Gibbons
                I believe Nigel Calder wrote about that option also in one of his books. As I recall the passage, it was more a way of trying to revive a failing gel cell
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 16, 2008
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                  I believe Nigel Calder wrote about that option also in one of his books. As I recall the passage, it was more a way of trying to revive a failing gel cell battery rather than any real maintenance.  By forcing voltage to almost the gassing point, he wrote,  persistent sulfates could be knocked off the plates and thus revive the battery. 
                  I took it to be case of nothing really to loose as the battery was almost dead anyway situation.
                   
                  I have a set of gells on Dark Lady that are 10 years old and more or less fine.  I went with gells as they or in the settee just forward of the Nav station. That is no place for a wet cell with it's free hydrogen.
                   
                   
                  Dennis
                  Dark Lady
                  CN35-207
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:46 PM
                  Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity

                  Bill
                   
                  I haven't seen the article.  It would be good news if it works.  Four of our batteries should be replaced sometime soon.  The other one is for engine starting and we never seem to remember to use it so it's like new.
                   
                  I'll check it out and perhaps try it before buying new ones.  Do you know if what they wrote about referred to gel cells?
                   
                  John
                  S/V Passport
                  Nic 35-85
                • Graham Norbury
                  Its called equalization. You re never supposed to do it on GEL cells because it causes permanent bubbles in the electrolyte paste, but you can do it under
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 16, 2008
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                    Its called equalization. You're never supposed to do it on GEL cells
                    because it causes permanent bubbles in the electrolyte paste, but you
                    can do it under controlled conditions on AGM cells. If you speak to the
                    engineers at Lifeline, they'll tell you that their AGM batteries can be
                    equalized at 15.5v for a period of 8 hours. Be careful; once the water
                    is driven out, its not coming back.

                    I've done it and can report modest success with Lifeline batteries that
                    exhibited loss of capacity due to heavy sulfation from persistent
                    undercharging. Its not going to restore full capacity, but did get me
                    back to about 75%.

                    Graham

                    Dennis Gibbons wrote:
                    >
                    > I believe Nigel Calder wrote about that option also in one of his
                    > books. As I recall the passage, it was more a way of trying to revive
                    > a failing gel cell battery rather than any real maintenance. By
                    > forcing voltage to almost the gassing point, he wrote, persistent
                    > sulfates could be knocked off the plates and thus revive the battery.
                    > I took it to be case of nothing really to loose as the battery was
                    > almost dead anyway situation.
                    >
                    > I have a set of gells on Dark Lady that are 10 years old and more or
                    > less fine. I went with gells as they or in the settee just forward of
                    > the Nav station. That is no place for a wet cell with it's free hydrogen.
                    >
                    >
                    > Dennis
                    > Dark Lady
                    > CN35-207
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > *From:* JOHN LARSON <mailto:jsl-sll@...>
                    > *To:* campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                    > *Sent:* Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:46 PM
                    > *Subject:* Re: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity
                    >
                    > Bill
                    >
                    > I haven't seen the article. It would be good news if it works.
                    > Four of our batteries should be replaced sometime soon. The other
                    > one is for engine starting and we never seem to remember to use it
                    > so it's like new.
                    >
                    > I'll check it out and perhaps try it before buying new ones. Do
                    > you know if what they wrote about referred to gel cells?
                    >
                    > John
                    > S/V Passport
                    > Nic 35-85
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Spam <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=s&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                    > Not spam
                    > <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=n&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                    > Forget previous vote
                    > <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=f&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                  • Graham Horne
                    Thanks so much for all your respones on battery capacity. ... the ... water ... forward of ... hydrogen. ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 24, 2008
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                      Thanks so much for all your respones on battery capacity.

                      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, Graham Norbury <gnorbury@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Its called equalization. You're never supposed to do it on GEL cells
                      > because it causes permanent bubbles in the electrolyte paste, but you
                      > can do it under controlled conditions on AGM cells. If you speak to
                      the
                      > engineers at Lifeline, they'll tell you that their AGM batteries can be
                      > equalized at 15.5v for a period of 8 hours. Be careful; once the
                      water
                      > is driven out, its not coming back.
                      >
                      > I've done it and can report modest success with Lifeline batteries that
                      > exhibited loss of capacity due to heavy sulfation from persistent
                      > undercharging. Its not going to restore full capacity, but did get me
                      > back to about 75%.
                      >
                      > Graham
                      >
                      > Dennis Gibbons wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I believe Nigel Calder wrote about that option also in one of his
                      > > books. As I recall the passage, it was more a way of trying to revive
                      > > a failing gel cell battery rather than any real maintenance. By
                      > > forcing voltage to almost the gassing point, he wrote, persistent
                      > > sulfates could be knocked off the plates and thus revive the battery.
                      > > I took it to be case of nothing really to loose as the battery was
                      > > almost dead anyway situation.
                      > >
                      > > I have a set of gells on Dark Lady that are 10 years old and more or
                      > > less fine. I went with gells as they or in the settee just
                      forward of
                      > > the Nav station. That is no place for a wet cell with it's free
                      hydrogen.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dennis
                      > > Dark Lady
                      > > CN35-207
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > *From:* JOHN LARSON <mailto:jsl-sll@...>
                      > > *To:* campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > *Sent:* Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:46 PM
                      > > *Subject:* Re: [campernicholson] Re: Battery Capacity
                      > >
                      > > Bill
                      > >
                      > > I haven't seen the article. It would be good news if it works.
                      > > Four of our batteries should be replaced sometime soon. The other
                      > > one is for engine starting and we never seem to remember to use it
                      > > so it's like new.
                      > >
                      > > I'll check it out and perhaps try it before buying new ones. Do
                      > > you know if what they wrote about referred to gel cells?
                      > >
                      > > John
                      > > S/V Passport
                      > > Nic 35-85
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Spam
                      <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=s&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                      > > Not spam
                      > > <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=n&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                      > > Forget previous vote
                      > > <http://mailshield.cosmoweb.net/b.php?c=f&i=157587609&m=55d5c891c342>
                      >
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